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Good point. Which calls into question whether such an illustration is referring to salvation, seeing as Paul, both in Romans 4 and Ephesians 2 makes the point that getting saved is nothing you can boast about. But if it's a reward for your efforts, that's something you can boast about and thus the contradiction. And as such TibiasDad's analogy doesn't hold.
I've denied nothing from Luke 8:13. But it seems you have, if you think that the verse speaks of losing salvation, which isn't even mentioned.Your denial of the scriptures shared with you in regards to LUKE 8:13 and elsewhere is noted but not agreed to or accepted as we should believe the scriptures which are God's Word.
OK. Doug gave an unbiblical answer. I'll check yours out. And thanks for answering.Your other question has already been answered. Please read post # 202 seems you missed it.
I don't care!! It doesn't matter. The ONLY question you need to answer is this:No English translation, to my knowledge, has the word " never"
So you're hiding behind the argument of silence, huh? You NEED to answer my question, if you really consider yourself a Bible student.nor does the Greek have the word never in it, so that is all the proof that we need.
I am basing my "assertion" on the FACT that "has not believed" obviously means "has NEVER believed". So it's YOUR burden to disprove my claim.You are the one that proposed the "never" translation, so it is your burden to support your assertions.
Exactly! That's WHY the burden is on you, who claim to have the truth to refute me.It isn't de facto truth because you claim it is!
I say it's obviously true. So go ahead and disprove me, if you can.You offer no evidence to support your assertions, and there is nothing to suggest that it might remotely be true, so we have nothing to disprove.
It seems you are straining at a gnat here. To "start to believe" is the same as "believing". Unless you can prove there is a significant difference.Acts 16:31 is a unique point, as the beginning of anything is, because there is only one "first time" experience. The start of the jailer's life as a believer is the pivot point in his life, going from the state of not believing to the state of believing is the stress point of the ingressive aorist.
Wrong again. There is NOTHING in the aorist that speaks of "assuming an ongoing or continuous concept". Flatly wrong.The start point of believing is singular and punctiliar; the believing that began at that punctiliar moment is an active, dynamic and assumed to be ongoing by the nature of believing being a continuous concept.
I've already explained that ALL believing is in the present tense. Can't be otherwise.What happened with the jailer? He started (punctiliar/aorist) believing (active and assumed by its nature to go on, for there is no such thing as inactive believing).
Doug
Just read what I posted. "There is NO difference".Are you saying that my statement, "but to be believing one must start believing", is false?
Please explain the difference between "starting to believe" with "believing".That there doesn't have to be a starting point of believing at some point in the past to be believing today?
There's your opening! Now, explain yourself. Your claim is empty without evidence.There is a huge difference between the starting point of believing and believing at a subsequent point.
And that is the point of the aorist tense. The starting point of belief is a point in time. And, as a result of THAT point in time, the believer WILL BE SAVED.The day that you started believing in Christ is not today, Aug 28, 2020. Your faith does not start every day, there is only one first time, one starting point, every other day is a continuation of what began that first moment in the past.
Doug
Quit spinning your wheels and explain WHY "has not believed" CANNOT mean "has NEVER believed". It seems all you do is spin your wheels. Get some traction, and explain HOW they cannot be the same.The English does not have "never" in the translation!
Doesn't matter. Just explain to me how they CANNOT mean the same thing.So you apparently don't understand the English either! Besides, wasn't it you that said "the Greek grammar is all the matters", or something to that effect? So which is more important, the English or the Greek?
Doug
And YOU are ignoring (or flat out rejecting) John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:13 about the PRESENT TENSE POSSESSION of eternal life. And 1 Jn 5:11 where John used the aorist tense (HAS GIVEN us) of possession of eternal life.Titus 1:1Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior...
Titus 3:5....
Jude 20
1John 2:24
Gal 3:18
2 Tim 1:1
2Pet 1:3
2Cor 1:1
Heb 6:12
These are but a few of the scriptural references that what God has given us are promises which those "who purify [themselves] from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God" will ultimately receive!
lol. My true quotations are PART of the whole, not "in a vacuum/bubble", as you insinuate. How absurd. The FACT that they are true, as you note, proves that my view is true as well.Again, your quotations, while true, are only a minority of the verses in evidence and cannot be properly understood or interpreted in a vacuum or a bubble that insulates them from all the other references.
What you ssem to misunderstand altogether is that the words "eternal life" can refer to the gift that Jesus gives WHEN one believes, as shown from Scripture, or to the actual experience of eternity itself after one physically dies.If we take your position, and use these few verses to interpret all the others, then we have a very strong contradiction in the verses that speak of eternal life as a promise, and many examples of this contradictory battle of words are written by John.
I'll use your own words. In one sense, eternal life is a present tense possession of every believer. In another sense, eternal life is eternity itself, which IS a future promise.Now, in one sense, Jesus Christ is eternal life (1John 1:2), and when he lives in us, we possess eternal life, but this is just one aspect and not the whole reality.
Doug
Nonsense. All believing is in the present tense. Can't be otherwise. And WHEN a person believes, they POSSESS eternal life. Once belief, possess eternal life. OBPE.True but that is because "believing" is in the present tense.
This opinion is what you cannot defend from Scripture. Even though you are trying.If you no longer have belief then you no longer have salvation as believing is a condition of eternal life.
Well that is not true dear friend, sure you denied it. You denied the context to the PIA of belief or continuous present in LUKE 8:13 is to "for a while" to which it is applied. Then when temptation come they fall away into unbelief. Context matters in application. This has been brought to your attention many times now.I've denied nothing from Luke 8:13. But it seems you have, if you think that the verse speaks of losing salvation, which isn't even mentioned.
Yea sorry, your hand waiving does not cut it with me. All you are doing here is simply denying 30+ scriptures that disagree with your interpretation of one scripture. 1 JOHN 5:11 and v13 are in harmony with the 30+ that have already been shared in post # 202 linked and the Greek that disagrees with you. As shown in the scriptures already we have the hope and God's promise of eternal life today while believing and following God's Word in the present moment. We do not receive the promise of eternal life until we have resisted temptation and remained faithful to the very end. If we depart the faith and fall away into unbelief we forfeit the conditions required for eternal life. These are Gods Word not mine.Well, I checked out post #202 - This is what you answered. "What for? I am not arguing about when a person receives eternal life but how (believing). The scriptures are pretty clear about this question however so not sure why your asking this. We have the hope of eternal life now when we believe and follow God's Words. We receive eternal life after we have been tried and have endured temptation and continue believing and following." This does not meet Scripture at all. Your answer is as wrong as Doug's. I'll now challenge you with what I challenged Doug with, given your answers. Explain HOW John 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:11 and 13 SAY that eternal life is a present tense POSSESSION on the basis of belief in Christ. Your answer is in direct opposition to these verses. And, 1 Jn 5:11 even uses the aorist tense about Jesus "having given" eternal life. So how can the possession be future, as you opine?
Your just repeating yourself here without reading or considering the content of the posts and scriptures shared with you. Your simply stating what I already shared with you. If you believe what you just posted you would know that if a persona stops believing (present tense) then they forfeit the conditions of eternal life which is believing in the present tense.I said:
"Jesus and John stated the possession of eternal life in the PRESENT TENSE." Nonsense. All believing is in the present tense. Can't be otherwise. And WHEN a person believes, they POSSESS eternal life. Once belief, possess eternal life. OBPE.
What about 1 JOHN 5:11? This scripture is in harmony with all the scripture and Greek already presented in post # 202 linked. As shown in the scriptures already we have the hope and God's promise of eternal life today while believing and following God's Word in the present moment. We do not receive the promise of eternal life until we have been tried in temptation and have been found to remain faithful continuing to believe and follow God's Word to the very end and remained faithful. If you disagree with post # 202 linked and the scriptures and the Greek provided, prove your claims. So far all you have done here is denied the scriptures that disagree with you and provided an opinion. Now you are free to believe as you wish but the scriptures shared with you are Gods Word not mine. So your argument is with God not me.What about 1 John 5:11, where John eternal life "has been given". Care to explain how that aligns with your opinions? This opinion is what you cannot defend from Scripture. Even though you are trying. From the MOMENT one believes, they HAVE eternal life. John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:13. And 1 John 5:11 says eternal life HAS BEEN GIVEN to the believer.
Prove this with a post #.Well that is not true dear friend, sure you denied it.
I've NEVER denied that the continuous present existed only for a while. In fact, I pointed out that continuous belief doesn't mean forever.You denied the context to the PIA of belief or continuous present in LUKE 8:13 is to "for a while" to which it is applied.
That has always been my point. They ceased to believe.Then when temptation come they fall away into unbelief. Context matters in application. This has been brought to your attention many times now.
Oh, cut the nonsense and hyperbole.Yea sorry, your hand waiving does not cut it with me.
This ridiculous and false claim is beyond pathetic. You cannot show ANY verse that I deny.All you are doing here is simply denying 30+ scriptures that disagree with your interpretation of one scripture.
How can the "Greek disagree with me" since I have pointed out the aorist tense of "eternal life HAS BEEN GIVEN to you"?? Why are you having so much trouble understanding this?1 JOHN 5:11 in harmony with the 30+ that have already been shared in post # 202 linked and the Greek that disagrees with you.
It is YOU who fail to understand God's Word. John 5:24, 6;47 and 1 John 5:13 all say that those who believe PRESENTLY POSSESS (have) eternal life. And 1 Jn 5:11 says the believer "has been given eternal life".As shown in the scriptures already we have the hope and God's promise of eternal life today while believing and following God's Word in the present moment.
OK, quote ANY verse that actually says this.We do not receive the promise of eternal life until we have resisted temptation and remained faithful to the very end.
Show me. I deny your claim. Prove me wrong.If we depart the faith and fall away into unbelief we forfeit the conditions required for eternal life. These are Gods Word not mine.
Not at all. In fact, it is YOUR words that disagree with me, because they disagree with God's Word.Sorry dear friend it seems like God's Word disagrees with you.
On the contrary, I am repeating Scripture in the hope that it may actually begin to sink in.Your just repeating yourself here without reading or considering the content of the posts and scriptures shared with you.
Please, please please quote me the single most clear verse that makes this clear.Your simply stating what I already shared with you. If you believe what you just posted you would know that if a persona stops believing (present tense) then they forfeit the conditions of eternal life which is believing in the present tense.
Your "answer" in post #202 was a complete MESS. Not even close to the gospel. Just a works oriented kind of salvation. Not really different that what the Pharisees who Jesus called vipers believed. You're in their camp.What about 1 JOHN 5:11? This scripture is in harmony with all the scripture and Greek already presented in post # 202 linked.
You haven't yet proven your works oriented claim. Because you can't. But, you can repeat yourself. Frequently.As shown in the scriptures already we have the hope and God's promise of eternal life today while believing and following God's Word in the present moment.
Yeah, that's what you claimed in post #202. Totally unbiblical. But totally Pharisaical.We do not receive the promise of eternal life until we have been tried in temptation and have been found to remain faithful continuing to believe and follow God's Word to the very end and remained faithful.
My proof is in Scripture. Many many verses that teach that salvation/eternal life is conditioned upon belief. No mention of "remaining faithful/continuing to believe/following God's Word "to the very end".If you disagree with post # 202 linked and the scriptures and the Greek provided, prove your claims.
No, I've denied your faulty interpretation of Scripture. And I totally REJECT your works salvation stuff.So far all you have done here is denied the scriptures that disagree with you and provided an opinion.
I say it's obviously true.
You "have not murdered" also means you "have NEVER murdered". If you don't see this, there is no hope of having any kind of reasonable or rational discussion.
So, have you ever murdered anyone?
And that is the point of the aorist tense. The starting point of belief is a point in time. And, as a result of THAT point in time, the believer WILL BE SAVED.
Why don't you see this as a promise of eternal life? It's quite obvious to me.
Indeed and I disagreed with you by stating that your claims were not true and proved this by showing you denied the context to the PIA of belief or continuous present in LUKE 8:13 is to "for a while" to which it is applied. Then when temptation come they fall away into unbelief. Context matters in application. This has been brought to your attention many times now. The scripture by itself proves that the concept of once saved always saved is not biblical and proves this scripture is in harmony with everything that has been shared with you in this thread. If you say you agree with what has been presented here then your agreeing that once saved always saved is not biblical. If you agree that OSAS is not biblical what are you arguing about?I said:"I've denied nothing from Luke 8:13. But it seems you have, if you think that the verse speaks of losing salvation, which isn't even mentioned." Prove this with a post #. I've NEVER denied that the continuous present existed only for a while. In fact, I pointed out that continuous belief doesn't mean forever. That has always been my point. They ceased to believe.
Well that is not true dear friend as there was no nonsense or hyperbole. You have only been told the truth. You were shown many scriptures that you simply hand waived and denied in post # 202 linked how can you say otherwise? Evidence linked for all to see. Your response instead of showing why you disagree was to simply state you disagree. Sorry dear friend but how can you deny God's Word with your words? For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it. You have provided none except your own words that are not God's Word so once again your argument is with God not me. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.Oh, cut the nonsense and hyperbole. This ridiculous and false claim is beyond pathetic. You cannot show ANY verse that I deny. What you obviously don't grasp is that I deny YOUR unbiblical "interpretations" of those 30+ verses.
There is no failing anything my side dear friend as the aorist does not effect what is being shared with you so your comment here is simply a distraction. 1 JOHN 5:11; JOHN 5:24, 6;47 and 1 JOHN 5:13 are all in harmony with the 30+ scriptures that have already been shared in post # 202 linked and the Greek that disagrees with you in JOHN 3:36. As shown in the scriptures already God's Word (not mine) says we have the hope and God's promise of eternal life today while believing and following God's Word in the present moment. We do not physically receive the promise of eternal life until we have resisted temptation and remained faithful to the very end according to the scriptures. If we depart the faith and fall away into unbelief we forfeit the conditions required for eternal life. These are Gods Word not mine.How can the "Greek disagree with me" since I have pointed out the aorist tense of "eternal life HAS BEEN GIVEN to you"?? Why are you having so much trouble understanding this? It is YOU who fail to understand God's Word. John 5:24, 6;47 and 1 John 5:13 all say that those who believe PRESENTLY POSSESS (have) eternal life. And 1 Jn 5:11 says the believer "has been given eternal life".
Already did. Please see post # 202 linked and the Greek that disagrees with you in JOHN 3:36. As shown in the scriptures already, God's Word (not mine) says we have the hope and God's promise of eternal life today while believing and following God's Word in the present moment. We do not receive the promise of eternal life until we have resisted temptation and remained faithful to the very end. If we depart the faith and fall away into unbelief we forfeit the conditions required for eternal life. These are Gods Word not mine.OK, quote ANY verse that actually says this. Show me. I deny your claim. Prove me wrong.
Sadly your comments here are an untruthful distraction. I believe no such things. If I do not believe God's salvation is earned by works why are you pretending that this is what I believe. Or if you do not know what I believe why do you not simply ask me?There's really no point in debating/discussing with those who think that salvation is earned and worked for. Such people (SDA, RCC, etc) do not understand GRACE at all.
Your response here...LoveGodsWord wrote: Your simply stating what I already shared with you. If you believe what you just posted you would know that if a person stops believing (present tense) then they forfeit the conditions of eternal life which is believing in the present tense.
Please, please please quote me the single most clear verse that makes this clear. Note: I am not asking for specific wording, but I am asking for specifically clear teaching.
Wrong again. There is NOTHING in the aorist that speaks of "assuming an ongoing or continuous concept". Flatly wrong.
Nonsense. All believing is in the present tense. Can't be otherwise.
Ezekiel 3:20-21 [20], Again, When a righteous man does turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because you have not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at your hand. [21], Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also you have delivered your soul.
Ezekiel 18:20 [20], The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.
And YOU are ignoring (or flat out rejecting) John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:13 about the PRESENT TENSE POSSESSION of eternal life. And 1 Jn 5:11 where John used the aorist tense (HAS GIVEN us) of possession of eternal life.
So, it's obvious that you do not understand the verses you have cited.
You're still stalling. How about this: truth ALWAYS refutes lies. Do you have the truth? Then prove it by refuting my statement.Obvious should have evidence for its obviousness!
How are your own proclamations any more worthy? Where is your evidence? All you've got is your own claims. I have REFUTED your claims with Scripture.The only evidence you have is your own proclamation, and with all due respect, that is meaningless, and thus worthless.
I just gave you a PERFECTLY CLEAR example of WHY "has not" also means "has NEVER", and all you do is squirm and as "not necessarily". Amazing.Ah, so this is the meaning of obvious! Certainly in some instances, as in murdering, it might be true, but not necessarily.
All of this is immaterial to the 2 phrases that I have just PROVED mean the same thing.Jesus and John teach that anyone who speaks angrily with his brother is guilty of murder (Matt 5:21-22 , 1John 3:15), so while I have never taken someone's life at any time, I have been angry at my brother a time or two in the past, so it would depend on the circumstance whether I have ever murdered!
Did you read this aloud before you posted? Or better yet, did you have someone else read this before you posted? Because it's just very confused and convoluted.Likewise with believing. I can say that I used to believe X but no longer do so, yet, if believing in X is a condition for salvation, and I do not at this moment believe, then I am condemned because I have not believed but this does not necessarily mean I have never believed.
Again, immaterial to the 2 phrases.Moreover, scripture equates believing with obeying, and I have certainly obeyed at some points, and not obeyed at others so if the Lord calls me on the carpet for my disobedience and I question him as to why, he has every right to say " because you have not obeyed"! But this obviously doesn't mean I have never obeyed!
All I've done is prove that "has not" means "has never". Period. And you can't refute this.You assume that because "never" is a possible meaning that it must always mean never.
Oh, this is rich! So now it's getting down to "cult-like", huh. Which cult did you have in mind, Doug? Or is this just more examples of your desperate attempts at ad hominem?That is another example of logical error and cult-like argumentation.
Doug
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