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It would be the same if I were to say the one who finishes the race will win the prize, so run the race to win, then starting the race is necessary, but starting does not win the race, finishing the race does!
Indeed so why do you keep repeating yourself when shown your error here.OK, we've already been over this.
What for? I am not arguing about when a person receives eternal life but how (believing). The scriptures are pretty clear about this question however so not sure why your asking this. We have the hope of eternal life now when we believe and follow God's Words. We receive eternal life after we have been tried and have endured temptation and continue believing and following.The only question left for you to answer is WHEN a person actually receives the gift of eternal life.
Well, that was also my point. All belief is continuous present. It can't be otherwise. Even Jesus made that clear with the 2nd soil in Luke 8:13. But He also added "for a while", proving that even PIA 'belief' doesn't last for some people.
Acts16:31 again (the merry-go-round discussion lands on Acts16:31 again):
NKJ Acts 16:31 So they said, "Believe (Aorist Active Imperative) on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved (Future Passive Indicative), you and your household."
Believe in the Aorist Active Imperative: (quotes are from Wallace GGBtheB)
1. The grammatical structure of Acts16:31: "Imperative + and + Future Indicative" fits the Conditional Imperative category of Imperatives. Thus, this can simply be saying, If you believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, then you will be saved.
A. From there we could look at the Aorist tense parsing of the Imperative verb for more information.
B. If we take the Aorist as a Constative Aorist – “by far the most common of use of the Aorist,” then it’s describing belief only “in summary fashion, without focusing on the beginning or end of the action specifically.” The action can be iterative, durative, or momentary, but the aorist says none of this. “It places the stress on the fact of the occurrence, not its nature.’ SO, if we take the Aorist tense as Constative, we’re being told nothing about the action of the Aorist Belief, other than it is being commanded here. SO, we would need to know about Biblical Belief from other instruction.
C. If we take the Aorist as Ingressive – which “is quite common” – then it can be telling us of the “beginning of an action or the entrance into a state.” I see mainly from English grammar resources that “believe” is a stative verb, so the Ingressive would be speaking of entrance into the state of Biblical Belief, whatever this is. SO, once again, we would need to know more about Biblical Belief from other instruction.
D. Conclusion: The Conditional Imperative would just be telling us, If you believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, then you will be saved. If the Aorist is interpreted as Constative, then Belief could be something repeated, lasting, or momentary, but we cannot derive this in this verse. If the Aorist is interpreted as Ingressive, then the focus of the command is to enter into the state of [Biblical] Belief upon the Lord Jesus Christ, whatever Biblical Belief in the Lord Jesus Christ is. Whatever Biblical Belief in the Lord Jesus Christ is, it eventuates in a future of being saved (again, whatever saved means).
2. If we interpret the Aorist Active Imperative as simply being a Volitional Clause, within the Acts16:31 close context of the specific and obvious urgency of the matter, then the Imperative is telling us of this specific & urgent matter and the entrance into Biblical Belief, whatever this is, and the future (whenever this is) of being saved (whatever saved means) as its solution.
3. SO, if Volitional or Conditional, or both overlapping, what is the state of [Biblical] Belief in the Lord Jesus Christ? Is it something repeated, continuous, or momentary? Acts16:31 doesn’t say. But it certainly implies that the state of Belief is something within which being saved in the future takes place. SO, our choices are: (1) enter into the state & remain there and you will be saved (durative) or (2) enter into the state and leave and reenter and leave and reenter and… the state and you will be saved (iterative) or (3) enter into the state and leave and do not reenter and you will be saved (momentary however long the moment is?) or (4) enter into the state for a moment and who cares after that and you will be saved (typical very brief moment). Again, Acts16:31 doesn’t specifically say which one is the best interpretation, but only 1 sounds logical to me, especially since the Lord Jesus Christ is the current and eternal King of Kings & Lord of Lords with all authority in Heaven and upon earth forever. Really, what’s the debate here?
From where do you get the notion that there is a difference between believing and "starting to belielve"?I am doing nothing of the sort! I have done exactly as you have done in your last paragraph. However, that believing must be started to be saved in the the future is not to say that only starting to believe is the condition for salvation. Believing is the condition, not the starting itself.
There is no difference. You're making up stuff.But to be believing one must start believing!
Once again, if your theory of "continual believing" is a condition for salvation, then neither Paul nor Jesus would have been accurate to ever use the aorist tense in relation to salvation.That is the emphasis of using the ingressive aorist. It would be the same if I were to say the one who finishes the race will win the prize, so run the race to win, then starting the race is necessary, but starting does not win the race, finishing the race does!
Doug
So far, nothing to see here.Acts16:31 again (the merry-go-round discussion lands on Acts16:31 again):
NKJ Acts 16:31 So they said, "Believe (Aorist Active Imperative) on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved (Future Passive Indicative), you and your household."
Believe in the Aorist Active Imperative: (quotes are from Wallace GGBtheB)
1. The grammatical structure of Acts16:31: "Imperative + and + Future Indicative" fits the Conditional Imperative category of Imperatives. Thus, this can simply be saying, If you believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, then you will be saved.
No we don't. The very use of the aorist proves that any "continual action" isn't in view at all. If this theory about "continual belief" were necessary for salvation, it would have been quite misleading and WRONG for either Jesus or Paul to ever use the aorist when discussing how to be saved.A. From there we could look at the Aorist tense parsing of the Imperative verb for more information.
B. If we take the Aorist as a Constative Aorist – “by far the most common of use of the Aorist,” then it’s describing belief only “in summary fashion, without focusing on the beginning or end of the action specifically.” The action can be iterative, durative, or momentary, but the aorist says none of this. “It places the stress on the fact of the occurrence, not its nature.’ SO, if we take the Aorist tense as Constative, we’re being told nothing about the action of the Aorist Belief, other than it is being commanded here. SO, we would need to know about Biblical Belief from other instruction.
No, we wouldn't. The very fact that none of these aorists indicates any statement about time frame shows that time frame isn't necessary.C. If we take the Aorist as Ingressive – which “is quite common” – then it can be telling us of the “beginning of an action or the entrance into a state.” I see mainly from English grammar resources that “believe” is a stative verb, so the Ingressive would be speaking of entrance into the state of Biblical Belief, whatever this is. SO, once again, we would need to know more about Biblical Belief from other instruction.
So far, you're not making your own case.D. Conclusion: The Conditional Imperative would just be telling us, If you believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, then you will be saved. If the Aorist is interpreted as Constative, then Belief could be something repeated, lasting, or momentary, but we cannot derive this in this verse. If the Aorist is interpreted as Ingressive, then the focus of the command is to enter into the state of [Biblical] Belief upon the Lord Jesus Christ, whatever Biblical Belief in the Lord Jesus Christ is. Whatever Biblical Belief in the Lord Jesus Christ is, it eventuates in a future of being saved (again, whatever saved means).
Still not making your case.2. If we interpret the Aorist Active Imperative as simply being a Volitional Clause, within the Acts16:31 close context of the specific and obvious urgency of the matter, then the Imperative is telling us of this specific & urgent matter and the entrance into Biblical Belief, whatever this is, and the future (whenever this is) of being saved (whatever saved means) as its solution.
That fact shows that if one of these "states" were necessary, neither Jesus or Paul would have used the aorist in regard to salvation.3. SO, if Volitional or Conditional, or both overlapping, what is the state of [Biblical] Belief in the Lord Jesus Christ? Is it something repeated, continuous, or momentary? Acts16:31 doesn’t say.
The statement clearly says that salvation FOLLOWS belief. That's all.But it certainly implies that the state of Belief is something within which being saved in the future takes place.
There is no real debate. The verse is clear enough: salvation follows belief. That simple.SO, our choices are: (1) enter into the state & remain there and you will be saved (durative) or (2) enter into the state and leave and reenter and leave and reenter and… the state and you will be saved (iterative) or (3) enter into the state and leave and do not reenter and you will be saved (momentary however long the moment is?) or (4) enter into the state for a moment and who cares after that and you will be saved (typical very brief moment). Again, Acts16:31 doesn’t specifically say which one is the best interpretation, but only 1 sounds logical to me, especially since the Lord Jesus Christ is the current and eternal King of Kings & Lord of Lords with all authority in Heaven and upon earth forever. Really, what’s the debate here?
What things "seem to be" to you isn't necessarily fact.We have been bringing it up with you dear friend although you do not seem to be listening.
Of course.The context to the PIA of belief or continuous present in LUKE 8:13 is to "for a while" to which it is applied.
Again, of course.Then when temptation come they fall away into unbelief. Context matters in application
Well, maybe you should WAKE UP and notice my response to ALL of your points here. And I'm not changing my views either. So you just haven't been very perceptive.This has been brought to your attention many times now. You seem to be ignoring it.
Let me tell you what it doesn't support. The notion that those who don't continue to believe will lose their salvation. Jesus says nothing about that. He only explains WHY some believers fall away from their faith. There is nothing about losing salvaton. That is just presumption.LUKE 8:13 supports everything that has been shared here with you. It does not support a view of once saved always saved.
Can you explain WHEN a person receives the gift of eternal life? Jesus said He GIVES eternal life to His sheep. So, WHEN does that occur? Specifically.That is unbiblical and proven false in this very scripture and all through the rest of the bible.
Can you explain WHEN a person receives the gift of eternal life? Jesus said He GIVES eternal life to His sheep. So, WHEN does that occur? Specifically.
What do I have to prove? All English translations have "has not believed". So, can you prove that the phrase CANNOT mean "has NEVER believed"?
Good point. Which calls into question whether such an illustration is referring to salvation, seeing as Paul, both in Romans 4 and Ephesians 2 makes the point that getting saved is nothing you can boast about. But if it's a reward for your efforts, that's something you can boast about and thus the contradiction. And as such TibiasDad's analogy doesn't hold.I think Paul used such an illustration, but isn't the prize just rewards or a 2nd inheritance or something? And doesn't everyone get an inheritance no matter if they finish or not?
What you're alleging is that salvation is a prize that you gain by winning a race. Which makes it a matter of your effort and therefore something you can boast about. That is a significantly different concept of soteriology than that described in the Bible which states, "It is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9It would be the same if I were to say the one who finishes the race will win the prize, so run the race to win, then starting the race is necessary, but starting does not win the race, finishing the race does!
Doug
I have not been following your conversation so please forgive me if I am out of place here but I think if you read Doug's post it is not talking about winning the race but finishing the race to win the prize.What you're alleging is that salvation is a prize that you gain by winning a race. Which makes it a matter of your effort and therefore something you can boast about. That is a significantly different concept of soteriology than that described in the Bible which states, "It is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9
From where do you get the notion that there is a difference between believing and "starting to belielve"?
The phrase "starting to believe" is merely a way of saying TO BELIEVE.
There is no difference. You're making up stuff.
Once again, if your theory of "continual believing" is a condition for salvation, then neither Paul nor Jesus would have been accurate to ever use the aorist tense in relation to salvation.
The aorist gives no such emphasis. And that would be very wrong if your theory were correct.
It's a race he's talking about. You're finishing to win the prize. So to him apparently eternal life is a prize that you win and thus you can boast of "winning" eternal life for yourself. This is contrast not only to Eph 2:8,9 but also to Romans 4 "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about"I have not been following your conversation so please forgive me if I am out of place here but I think if you read Doug's post it is not talking about winning the race but finishing the race to win the prize.
God bless
What you're alleging is that salvation is a prize that you gain by winning a race. Which makes it a matter of your effort and therefore something you can boast about. That is a significantly different concept of soteriology than that described in the Bible which states, "It is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9
There is no difference. You're making up stuff.
On the basis of the FACT that I fully understand the Engish language. And that IS CLEAR ENOUGH.
Now, if you want to argue about clarity, the BURDEN is on you to prove that the English isn't correct and the Greek says something else.
Which you know isn't the case.
I'm NOT giving you a pass here.
Jesus and John stated the possession of eternal life in the PRESENT TENSE.
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes (present participle) him who sent me HAS (PIA) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes (present participle) HAS (PIA) eternal life.
1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life (aorist indicative), and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe (present participle) in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you HAVE (PIA) eternal life.
The ONLY remaining issue between us is your explanation of WHY Jesus and John used the PIA for possession of eternal life.
None of the verses speaks of a future promise, as you are insinuating. In fact, both Jesus and John say PLAINLY that eternal life is a PRESENT POSSESSION for believers.
Oh, and none of you guys have provided any verses that say PLAINLY that eternal life can be revoked, removed, cancelled, lost, forfeited, misplaced, or any other description of no longer having possession of it.
True but that is because "believing" is in the present tense. This is what has been shared with you from the beginning. Not sure why you cannot see this. If you no longer have belief then you no longer have salvation as believing is a condition of eternal life. There is no such thing as once saved always saved. If you fall away and depart the faith and do not endure temptation to the end then you are an unbeliever and will receive the reward of the wicked according to the scriptures.I'm NOT giving you a pass here.
Jesus and John stated the possession of eternal life in the PRESENT TENSE.
Great post GDL, this is why I believe it is good to study single scriptures but you cannot make a doctrine out of one scripture verse of by cherry picking scripture out of context like some like to do. What makes it clear and without doubt in what the Greek in ACTS 16:31 is not clear on are the rest of the scriptures within the bible on subject matter and that is where we get a clear view that believing and obeying Gods' Word in the present tense always to the end are conditions of eternal life. At the end of the day the truth of Gods' Word can only be revealed to babes who prayerfully seek JESUS for it through his Spirit *John 14:26; John 16:13; John 7:17; John 17:17; John 8:31-36; 1 John 2:27. This is God's new covenant promise to all those who believe and follow God's Word *Hebrews 8:11. After all it was the humble fisherman that God revealed his truth over the learned Scribes and Pharisees in the days of Jesus. According to the scriptures nothing is new under the sun those who do not want to know God's Word continue to close their eyes and put their fingers in their ears in fulfillment of the scriptures in ISAIAH 6:9-10 spoken and repeated by JESUS in MATTHEW 13:14-15 and Paul in ACTS OF THE APOSTLE 28:26-27
God bless
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