"Us against them"

[LovebirdsFlying]

I am so sick of it.

Catholics and Protestants against each other. ("Protestants will burn in hell because they are not Catholic."...."Catholicism is the harlot of Babylon found in Revelation.")

Liberals and Conservatives against each other. ("Compassionate conservative is an oxymoron."...."If liberals like it, that proves it's unscriptural.")

Republicans vs. Democrats. Men vs. women. Young vs. old. White vs. color. Christians at each other's throats over predestination, method of baptism, speaking in tongues, p/w or hymns, and so many other things.

And here at CF, it can even be members vs. staff.

WHY? When will we ever be one?

For posting in Conservative, Liberal, and Moderate forums. I'd like to hear from all three.

 

[Nadiine]

WHY? When will we ever be one?

SIN NATURE
for starters. Read the progress report of the 7 churches in Revelation.
Not many had it all together, they had things to fix.
All of us are flawed - that includes the ones who divide and the ones who work to unify light with darkness as if Unity of all is what God wants.
It's not true.

In some things & with some people there should be division

Jesus said it Himself:
Mt. 10
Christ Brings Division

34"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth;
I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
36and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
37"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

2 John 1
6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments
This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.

1. 2 Corinthians 6:14
   Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?
2. 2 Corinthians 6:13-15 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 6 (Whole Chapter)
3. 1 John 1:6
   If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;

2 Tim 3
5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power;
Avoid such men as these.
6 For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses,
7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith.
9 But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes's and Jambres's folly was also.

(GREAT Commentary ~ read who denies it's power for vs. 5:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/comm_read.pl?book=2Ti&chapter=3&verse=1&Comm=Comm%2Fdavid_guzik%2Fsg%2F2Ti_3.html%230@@@@@1%26*David+Guzik%26&Select.x=22&Select.y=15
)

Titus 3
10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,
11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning,
being self-condemned.
[
* Titus must take measures against those who insist on going their own way.
Their self-will makes them self-condemned.
“Labour to convince him of his error; but if he will not receive instruction, if he has shut his heart against conviction, then – burn him alive?
No, even if demonstrably a heretic in any one sense of that word, and a disturber of the peace of the church, God gives no man any other authority over him but to shun him.
Do him no harm in body, soul, character, or substance; hold no communion with him; but leave him to God.” (Clarke)
]

When people see bad fruit and hear false teaching and promotion of immorality (denying sin is sin) which doesn't line up with clearly written scripture, you won't get UNITY of spirit at CF.
Nor should you.
Namely when anyone can grab a Christian Icon & wave it in the air and you're supposed to just accept they're your brother/sister in Christ.

Sorry, but the bible doesn't even teach that that's how we discern a fellow Christian. It takes more than that becuz wolves can wear sheeps wool and often work from within and false teachers abound today, deception is everywhere.

So that's the one specific aspect I'd like to respond to about certain divisions going on at CF - SOME IS HEALTHY since we're commanded to divide from certain people.

& some of it is wrong and I agree with you, unity needs to take place.
I think it's the nature of debate itself that can spawn this spirit inside us.
Not all people come here for the same reason and not all are mature in faith yet... (that goes for those who divide wrongly and those who promote unity with the ungodly for the sake of unity/peace)

Hebrews 5:14
But solid food is for the mature,
who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Thank you, Nadiine.

That does help. I'm sick of "us vs. them." But I am also sick of there being such a short jump between "non-Christian" and "anti-Christian." There are various threads condeming CF for re-instating Christian-only forums; I've seen it claimed that we are acting like an exclusive club, by people who are just as anxious to keep *Christians* out of *their* exclusive club.

 

[Nadiine]

Thank you, Nadiine.

That does help. I'm sick of "us vs. them." But I am also sick of there being such a short jump between "non-Christian" and "anti-Christian." There are various threads condeming CF for re-instating Christian-only forums; I've seen it claimed that we are acting like an exclusive club, by people who are just as anxious to keep *Christians* out of *their* exclusive club.

YW
Unfortunately, alot of Christians aren't being taught about proper division - division is important for our spiritual health as well as some other things.

I wasn't quite sure which areas of the forum you had been visiting & what you had been reading, so I thought I'd just make a general point to say that dividing is taught by Jesus and the NT authors.
The trick is to know when and who to divide with - that part we dont' always get right unfortunately (which involves spiritual maturity from Hebrews 5:14).

There are 2 areas where "us and them" will ALWAYS be present:
religion and politics. My personal belief as to why that is, is becuz politics is closely related to moral issues/ legislation includes moral laws - which relate back to religion - so the 2 are related imo.

As far as this war about the Theology area - I was in a thread that got closed. When I saw who was the most angry and bitter, it made sense to me tho.
Theology forums were used heavily as an attack arena against Christians & Christianity by several groups who essentially tag-teamed together to work against us.
When that platform is removed, you're going to hear some REAL angry, hostile people. But what do we expect?

There are PLENTY of areas TRUE SEEKERS can go to here at CF - the issue is that the ones screaming the loudest aren't actually seeking anything but to push their antiChristian/anticonservative agendas.

I expect to hear a whole lot of hostility.

Was it the right thing to do? I don't know yet; time will tell. CF impliments TONS of policy changes - they're probly trying this out & hoping they get those who left CF back.

As I remember it, it's Erwin's 7/7/7 change that opened up Theology to nonChristians...?? If so, Lee's just undoing that change that was upopular to many Christians here who FLED to congregational safe havens afterwards & started furiously creating WIKI's of protection so we could enjoy CF someplace in a little cubby hole.
OY VEY.

 

[Nadiine]

I've seen it claimed that we are acting like an exclusive club, by people who are just as anxious to keep *Christians* out of *their* exclusive club.

& a ps.

This is a judgment as to Christian's Motives.. they cannot know this, it's just an attack.

THey usually use lame ploys like "now you're shutting out people from learning and being helped"... PuhLeeeeeeeeeze.
TRUE seekers have plenty of areas to ask Q's & talk w/ Christians without being hostile against scripture & Christians & God.

They'll use any accusations they can to pressure leadership to feel guilty or feel like they made a mistake in tightening it up. We have to expect that; it's a loss of a platform for Satan imo.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

It all comes down to: "Non-something" doesn't have to equal "anti-something." But too often, it does.

Friendship request on the way.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Thank you, Nadiine.

That does help. I'm sick of "us vs. them." But I am also sick of there being such a short jump between "non-Christian" and "anti-Christian." There are various threads condeming CF for re-instating Christian-only forums; I've seen it claimed that we are acting like an exclusive club, by people who are just as anxious to keep *Christians* out of *their* exclusive club.

I saw that, too. I think all we can do is act with integrity and love - ya know? If we see a non-Christian hurting, or feeling unwelcome, we reach out to them- do we really need the forum to tell us to do that?? Can we only do that if there are no CO forums? Yes, there is much hypocrisy in the way many are reacting to this - but it's not our burden to bear. If we reach out to anyone who may be hurting, and ensure WE, as individual Christians, as individual parts of the body of Christ, don't reflect an air of elitism or exclusivity, then we're doing right by God, and we're doing right by the people who may be hurting.

The "political" kvetching and grumbling and rhetoric is endless, but if we're not treating anyone unkindly, or making anyone feel unwanted, it really isn't our burden to bear.

 

[GQ Chris]

No matter what side you are on, you will be labeled something. Nothing anyone can do about that.

I hate having to butt heads with people, but what I hate even more is people who don't stand for anything and let democrats/liberals decide for them. I know people like this I work with.

 

[Nadiine]

No matter what side you are on, you will be labeled something. Nothing anyone can do about that.

I hate having to butt heads with people, but what I hate even more is people who don't stand for anything and let democrats/liberals decide for them. I know people like this I work with.

One of my favorite quotes is

If you do not stand for something, you will fall for anything

 

[GQ Chris]

As a former catholic, I see it as an opportunity to win Souls. With God given all the Glory of course.

I believe that God has made me a fisher of Men, he has drawn so many people to me, and has continued to do so lately, people see the Father's Light and they can no longer avoid it.

 

[Nadiine]

It all comes down to: "Non-something" doesn't have to equal "anti-something." But too often, it does.

*I'd note here too, that being ANTI isn't bad either - it just depends on what you are taking a stand against.

God told us to "hate what is evil". Do we hate it? If not, why not?

To me, hating evil means we are moving to anti, not neutrality.

 

[Zecryphon]

I am so sick of it.

Catholics and Protestants against each other. ("Protestants will burn in hell because they are not Catholic."...."Catholicism is the harlot of Babylon found in Revelation.")

Liberals and Conservatives against each other. ("Compassionate conservative is an oxymoron."...."If liberals like it, that proves it's unscriptural.")

Republicans vs. Democrats. Men vs. women. Young vs. old. White vs. color. Christians at each other's throats over predestination, method of baptism, speaking in tongues, p/w or hymns, and so many other things.

And here at CF, it can even be members vs. staff.

WHY? When will we ever be one?

For posting in Conservative, Liberal, and Moderate forums. I'd like to hear from all three.

We will be one when we are raised to eternal life on the last day. We will not be one before then.

 

[MrJim]

We will be one when we are raised to eternal life on the last day. We will not be one before then.

Not even a little? Is that like a biblical statement or an opinion?

 

[Zecryphon]

Not even a little? Is that like a biblical statement or an opinion?

Both. Christ Himself said that He did not come to bring peace but a sword. Swords are not typically symbols of peace. Christ said that we are to shake the dust from our sandals if a village will not receive the message of the gospel. That command addresses an "us" vs. "them" scenario. Those who will hear and those who won't. The last day too shows us that not all will be "one", until after the Judgment.

We see in scripture that there is a Great White Throne Judgment and although this term is not used in scripture, a Bema Seat Judgment, where our works as Christians will be tested and rewards merited depending upon what foundation those works were built upon. One judgment is for non-believers, one is for believers. We are warned repeatedly to be on the lookout for false teachers. If we are all "one", why the need for this warning? Why so many commands to protect the church against heretics, false teachers and others who seek to destroy us, if we are all united as one? This cry for "oneness" usually comes from people who want to engage in ecumenicalism, where we just put aside our differences no matter what they are, and just focus on loving each other while we ignore the theological elephants in the room.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

I am so sick of it.

Catholics and Protestants against each other. ("Protestants will burn in hell because they are not Catholic."...."Catholicism is the harlot of Babylon found in Revelation.")

Liberals and Conservatives against each other. ("Compassionate conservative is an oxymoron."...."If liberals like it, that proves it's unscriptural.")

Republicans vs. Democrats. Men vs. women. Young vs. old. White vs. color. Christians at each other's throats over predestination, method of baptism, speaking in tongues, p/w or hymns, and so many other things.

And here at CF, it can even be members vs. staff.

WHY? When will we ever be one?

For posting in Conservative, Liberal, and Moderate forums. I'd like to hear from all three.

I lean left and right depending on the issue, so my opinion covers a lot of ground.


I share your concerns. I think one big problem is a lot of us have trouble setting aside our egos long enough to listen and find ways to come together like Jesus taught.

I know I've had to spank my ego here and there and I'm glad I did. Christ taught peace over everything else. He did predict we would *have* division...but we are called to rise above it and honor his teaching of love.

 

[MrJim]

It is "us vs. them"~nature of the war...someday it will eventually end up in open warfare~that's how these things always seem to end up.

 

[desmalia]

I am so sick of it.

Catholics and Protestants against each other. ("Protestants will burn in hell because they are not Catholic."...."Catholicism is the harlot of Babylon found in Revelation.")

Liberals and Conservatives against each other. ("Compassionate conservative is an oxymoron."...."If liberals like it, that proves it's unscriptural.")

Republicans vs. Democrats. Men vs. women. Young vs. old. White vs. color. Christians at each other's throats over predestination, method of baptism, speaking in tongues, p/w or hymns, and so many other things.

And here at CF, it can even be members vs. staff.

WHY? When will we ever be one?

For posting in Conservative, Liberal, and Moderate forums. I'd like to hear from all three.

You make some great points here, and I am glad that you feel this way too. As of late there has been a LOT of "us vs. them" sentiment around the forums. And much of it that we see on CF and the other related forums is not the healthy kind of division. It's the kind of division that is based on a desire (probably really of only a handful of members) for division over pretty much anything, as opposed to division based on genuine beliefs. AS Nadiine mentioned, I think a lot of it came to light because of the 7/7/7 changes.

What I've noticed is that the best way to get away from the unhealthy mentality is simply not to give it any credit or attention. It comes back down to individual responsibility not to feed the monster. And in the last few weeks I'm seeing a lot of members here doing a great job of taking that personal responsibility, which I think is a big part of why CC is doing so great lately. We're taking charge and saying "enough already". Some are still promoting the negative sentiment, and that may well always be the case. But we don't all have to fall into that line of thinking. And we still get the occasional fly by night pot shot from the peanut gallery, but even those have been handled really well. I'm very impressed with how CC members have been handling things here and I'm encouraged that this forum is finally heading in a positive direction.

As for division over issues, I agree that there are times when this is not only OK, but absolutely vital. And sometimes it's not so much division as simple disagreement on non-essential issues, which is normal and fine. We are going to have disagreements about issues, and that's OK. Sometimes it gets heated, even. And for some of us that will be the time when we excuse ourselves from that thread if it's just not something we want to put our energies into. For others it's a chance to work through these issues and get to know each other better. Catholics, EO's and protestants are always going to have a degree of conflict about many issues. People will disagree on predestination, baptism, tongues, etc. etc. and that's OK. We don't have to be in 100% perfect agreement in order to function well here.

One thing is for sure... it's never boring!!

 

[GQ Chris]

Jesus mentions in the new testament that those who were not for Him were against Him.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Jesus mentions in the new testament that those who were not for Him were against Him.

Matthew 12:30, NIV--"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."

The context is after the Pharisees had said Christ casts out demons only by demonic authority.

Thanks for making me look that up. My mind had first gone to Mark 9:40, NIV--"For whoever is not against us is for us." This is stated the other way around, and changes the perspective in a major way. The context here is the disciples having rebuked someone for acting in Christ's name to cast out demons, when he was not officially part of their group.

This sounds like a good topic for a springboard discussion. But I'm tired and on my way to bed.

 

[Nadiine]

Jesus mentions in the new testament that those who were not for Him were against Him.

I thought about that verse too after I read her comment. But after I thought about it a minute, you can still not be against something if you arent' for it.

Jesus is a different issue becuz we're born in natural sin; rebellious to God by nature. We can't take a neutral position on God becuz by default, we're already AGAINST Him at birth basically.
There is no neutral with God who is the way, truth and life. Taking a neutral position means you're keeping with your current condition (condemnation) without changing it by accepting the blood sacrifice.

It's like having cancer & being neutral about the cure - well, being neutral will cause you NOT to get treatment & not move FOR IT to actually take it -- and you will die if you aren't for it.
Neutrality all depends on your current status or condition.

Not so with other issues, situations or people where we can be neutral; neither for or against something that doesn't affect you either way.