urim and thummim

[BluhdoftheLamb]

This can be pretty confusing, I'm sure.

To keep them distinct, most just use "Devarim" for Deuteronomy, and "Mishneh Torah" for Maimonides' work.

Whew - thank you! Just checking my sanity; I should NOT be senile yet

 

[BluhdoftheLamb]

I still believe that the stones on the breastplate where of conductive quality and whatever the Urim and Thummim were, they reacted with these stones to transmit a message from heaven.

Yes absolutely! And it is QUITE a picture of our Great High Priest

And, to the chagrin of the anti-Paulines among us, Paul knew all about this when he wrote Eph 6 ...

 

[Lulav]

Yes absolutely! And it is QUITE a picture of our Great High Priest

And, to the chagrin of the anti-Paulines among us, Paul knew all about this when he wrote Eph 6 ...

I don't think he had any special knowledge outside a reading of the prophets, he gets his whole drash off of Isaiah 59

 

[scapeg0at]

What's a urim and thummim?

 

[ananda]

I don't think he had any special knowledge outside a reading of the prophets, he gets his whole drash off of Isaiah 59

Well said ... to the chagrin of the pro-Paulines among us!

 

[annier]

What's a urim and thummim?

URIM AND THUMMIM

URIM AND THUMMIM (Heb. אוּרִים וְתֻמִּי&#1501, a priestly device for obtaining oracles. On the high priest's *ephod (an apron-like garment) lay a breastpiece (חֹשֶׁ&#1503 – a pouch inlaid with 12 precious stones engraved with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel – that held the Urim and Thummim (Ex. 28:15–30; Lev. 8:8). By means of the Urim, the priest inquired of YHWH on behalf of the ruler (Num. 27:21; cf. Yoma 7:5, "only for the king, the high court, or someone serving a need of the community"); they were one of the three legitimate means of obtaining oracles in early Israel (Urim, dreams, prophets; I Sam. 28:6). Owing to the oracular character of the Urim, the breastpiece is called "the breastpiece of decision" (חֹשֶׁן הַמִּשְׁפָּ&#1496. (The concept evokes "the Tablets of Destiny" in Babylonian mythology – the symbol of supreme authority that lay on the breast of the chief god; Pritchard, Texts, 63, 67, 111.) The right to work this oracle was reserved for the levitical priests (Deut. 33:8).
Occasionally the term ephod is used with reference to the Urim-oracle associated with it (I Sam. 14:3, 18 [according to LXX]; 23:6, 9; 30:7). The latest period for which there is evidence of use of the ephod-Urim is that of David (but cf. Hos. 3:4); subsequently, oracles are conveyed exclusively by prophets. In postexilic times, when the Urim oracle was extinct, difficult questions were reserved "until a priest would appear with Urim and Thummim" (Ezra 2:63; Neh. 7:65; cf. Sot. 9:12: "After the former (i.e., pre-exilic) prophets died, the Urim and Thummim became extinct"; and Josephus (Ant. 3:218), who avers that the oracle ceased 200 years before his time).
There is no biblical information on the appearance of the Urim, the material out of which they were made (the Samaritan text of Ex. 28:30; 39:21 adds a command to manufacture the Urim and tells of its execution), or the technique of their use. The most illuminating passage is the Greek of I Samuel 14:41, whose underlying Hebrew is mutilated in the received texts: הָבָה תָמִים, conventionally rendered "Give a perfect answer":

Saul said: "O YHWH God of Israel, why have you not answered your servant this day? If the guilt be in me or in my son Jonathan. O YHWH God of Israel, give Urim (הָבָה אוּרִי&#1501. But if this guilt is in your people Israel, give Thummim (הָבָה תֻמִּי&#1501."
​

(For a defense of the received Hebrew, however, see M. Tsevat. in Sefer Segal (1955), 78–84.)
From the use of the verbs hippil and nilkad in connection with the Urim (verses 41–42), it appears that they were a kind of lot ((marked) stones or sticks?), since these verbs occur in connection with the casting of lots (Isa. 34:17; I Sam. 10:20). They were suitable for indicating which of two alternatives was right; hence inquiries to be decided by them were designed to elicit "yes" or "no" answers (I Sam. 23:10–12;30:8).
The etymology of the terms is obscure. From the Greek passage adduced above, it seems that the two terms are the names of two objects. Hence the conjecture that Urim derives from ʾ arar, "curse," and Thummim from tammam, "be whole," indicating negation and affirmation respectively. Tradition has connected the first term with light (ʾ or) or instruction (Aram. ʾ oraita). Thus both Greek δήλωσις καὶ ʾ αλήθεια, "declaration/revelation and truth," and Vulgate doctrina et veritas, "teaching and truth," treat the pair as a hendiadys meaning true instruction – with reference to the oracle. (An apparent derivative with this meaning is the novel coinage אורתום, found in the Qumran Thanksgiving Psalms Scroll with reference to divine illumination (4:6, 23; 18:29; see J. Licht's commentary to 4:6)). A talmudic interpretation finds an allusion to the unequivocalness of the oracle in two words: "They cause their message to be lucid [מאירין]… and carried out [משלימין]" (Yoma 73b).
The earliest speculation on the technique of the oracle is reflected in Josephus (Ant. 3:217), who states that victory was forecast by the shining of the stones in the breastpiece. The talmudists fancied that the oracle was spelled out by the miraculous protruding of letters out of the tribal names engraved on the stones (Yoma 73b; Maim. Yad, Kele ha-Mikdash, 10:11). Rashi takes account of the separate existence of the Urim by making them a document bearing the tetragrammaton, whose presence inside the breastpiece insured the clarity and perfection of the oracle (comment to Ex. 28:30 and Yoma 73a; cf. Samuel b. Meir, who calls the Urim a kind of conjuration by divine names). Naḥmanides (at Ex. 28:30) combines the various strands of interpretation: the Urim was a text bearing divine names placed inside the breastpiece, by virtue of which various letters out of the tribes' names lit up; the Thummim were other divine names by whose virtue the priest was able to combine the letters perfectly into the divine message.

[Moshe Greenberg]

In the Aggadah

To the names of the 12 tribes engraved on the breastpiece were added those of the three Patriarchs, together with the word shevet ("tribe") so as to encompass the whole alphabet (Yoma 73b). Interpreting Urim to mean "those whose words give light" and Thummim as "those whose words are fulfilled," the rabbis explain that the oracle was effected by rays of light shining on the letters, or protruding from them and forming themselves into groups (Yoma 73b), so that the high priest could read them. Only priests speaking by means of the holy spirit and upon whom the Shekhinah rested could invoke them. The inquirer had his face directed toward the high priest, who directed himself to the Shekhinah. One did not inquire either in a loud voice or silently in his heart, but like Hannah, who muttered her prayer (I Sam 1:13). Only one question was to be put at a time, and if two were asked, only the first was answered. However, if the occasion required two questions, both were answered. Unlike the decrees of a prophet, those of the Urim and Thummim could not be revoked. Only a king or a head of the Sanhedrin could inquire from the Urim and Thummim (Yoma 73a–b). The division of the land was effected by means of the Urim and Thummim (RB 122a). Saul and David consulted them (Mid. Ps. 27:2). The Urim and Thummim ceased to give oracular answers immediately after the death of the first prophets (Sot. 9:12), i.e., the destruction of the First Temple (Sot. 48b). However according to the Jerusalem Talmud (Sot. 9:14, 24b), the "first prophets" refers to Samuel and David and according to this view the Urim and Thummim did not function in the First Temple period either.

BIBLIOGRAPHY:

N.H. Tur-Sinai, Ha-Lashon ve-ha-Sefer, 3 (1956), 103–13; De Vaux, Anc Isr, 349–53; A. Cody, A History of the Old Testament Priesthood (1969); E. Robertson, in: VT, 14 (1964), 1–6. IN THE AGGADAH: Ginzberg, Legends, 3 (1911), 172–3; 4 (1913), 75–76; 6 (1928), 69–70; Guttmann, Mafte ʿaḥ, S.V.

Source: Encyclopaedia Judaica. © 2008 The Gale Group. All Rights Reserved.

​

 

[mishkan]

Well said ... to the chagrin of the pro-Paulines among us!

You're just being silly, now.

I've written extensively on the Pauline commentary being spun off of passages from the prophets. That does nothing to diminish anyone or anything. It remains all consistent revelation.

 

[ananda]

You're just being silly, now. I've written extensively on the Pauline commentary being spun off of passages from the prophets. That does nothing to diminish anyone or anything. It remains all consistent revelation.

I respectfully disagree.

 

[mishkan]

I respectfully disagree.

Saying you disagree doesn't communicate much. On what basis do you disagree? In what way is the Rabbi discredited by citing Yeshayahu 59? I consider that one of his strong suits! I consider it a highlight of the letter in my treatment of "Messianic Armor".

If Paul basing his arguments on quotations from the prophets discredits him, then prophets citing the Torah would likewise discredit them.

You have to be consistent in your premise.

 

[ananda]

Saying you disagree doesn't communicate much. On what basis do you disagree?

As you know, I am gagged from communicating anything substantially more than the fact that I disagree.

In what way is the Rabbi discredited by citing Yeshayahu 59?

Paul is not my Rabbi (Mt 23:8).

 

[mishkan]

As you know, I am gagged from communicating anything substantially more than the fact that I disagree.

You know where you can find me.

Paul is not my Rabbi (Mt 23:8).

Your loss.

 

[Lulav]

You're just being silly, now.

I've written extensively on the Pauline commentary being spun off of passages from the prophets. That does nothing to diminish anyone or anything. It remains all consistent revelation.

'Revelation' means to reveal something not known before. Quoting a prophet is not a revelation. And actually it was a misquote and used in his own interpretation.

If someone today does that and calls themselves a prophet they are usually spotted for the fake that they are and called upon it.

 

[Lulav]

As you know, I am gagged from communicating anything substantially more than the fact that I disagree.

Paul is not my Rabbi (Mt 23:8).

I was going to say the exact same thing! When did Paul become a Rabbi to believers? It started just recently and it goes against a direct order of the Messiah.

You know where you can find me.



Your loss.

No, it is our gain, we are being obedient to the Messiah, the only true Rabbi.

 

[mishkan]

'Revelation' means to reveal something not known before. Quoting a prophet is not a revelation. And actually it was a misquote and used in his own interpretation.

If someone today does that and calls themselves a prophet they are usually spotted for the fake that they are and called upon it.

I don't think you have a very good grasp of what it means to be a "navi". The prophets were not the ancient version of Jean Dixon or Edgar Cayce. They did not randomly or arbitrarily send in posts to the "National Enquirer". Their primary task was to bring forth admonition from the Torah--to apply existing revelatory material to their current circumstances.

In the course of doing this, they sometimes offered confirming signs and/or miraculous actions like healing. But the signs were not the message, and the message was not the signs. Sha'ul offered such signs, when appropriate, in the course of his travels. But the signs are not the focus of his writings.

Today, we read Sha'ul's letters, and receive his message--an expansion on both Torah and navi'im, which is applicable to our lives to day. He is part of the ongoing chain of revelation that was first codified at Sinai.

 

[WOFFED]

I don't think he [Paul] had any special knowledge outside a reading of the prophets, he gets his whole [mid]drash off of Isaiah 59

Paul as an Apostle was endowed with Supernatural Gifts. With the New Covenant a Spiritually born again Messianic has an indwelling presence of Yeshua (our High Priest) abiding and guiding our inner being (Ruach HaKodesh), thus the one new man/woman (Gal 3:28). You might say we have a better guide in us than any outward need for Urim and Thummin. It all revolves around our level of FAITH. That's why it's so important that we cleanse and renew our minds.

Hebrews 11:6 (CJB)
And without trusting, it is impossible to be well pleasing to God, because whoever approaches him must trust that he does exist and that he becomes a Rewarder to those who seek him out.

Hebrews 11:6 (NIV)
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Proverbs 3:5-6 (CJB)
5 Trust in Adonai with all your heart; do not rely on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways acknowledge him; then he will level your paths.

MJ Statement of Purpose​

7. We believe that the books of B'resheet (Genesis) to the book of Revelation to be the inspired word of Elohim. Any teaching that attempts to invalidate these books of the Bible as being the authoritative inspired word of God will not be acceptable here on the forum.

​

 

[pat34lee]

I was going to say the exact same thing! When did Paul become a Rabbi to believers? It started just recently and it goes against a direct order of the Messiah.

No, it is our gain, we are being obedient to the Messiah, the only true Rabbi.

I agree. Calling our teachers 'rabbis' today is part of a trend I've seen in many messianic groups. The trend is to be more Jewish than the Jews by copying their traditions into our own, then twisting them to fit our beliefs. That is a bad thing considering that rabbinic Judaism is built on a belief that Yeshua was a false messiah, and the true messiah has not appeared yet.

Messianics who call themselves rabbi should beware, because a true rabbi according to modern Judaism must reject Yeshua to keep the Jewish faith per the talmud. To an orthodox Jew, you may as well be calling yourself kosher pork.

 

[BluhdoftheLamb]

You might say we have a better guide in us than any outward need for Urim and Thummin.

My Brother gets it - indeed we DO!!

And yet the picture of the High Priest and how all this works is a far more detailed picture of the leading of the Holy Spirit than anything the NT gives us - hence my interest in MJ discussions, since y'all tend to pay attention to such things far more than any other group. Plenty to sink our teeth into here ...

 

[Lulav]

I don't think you have a very good grasp of what it means to be a "navi". The prophets were not the ancient version of Jean Dixon or Edgar Cayce. They did not randomly or arbitrarily send in posts to the "National Enquirer". Their primary task was to bring forth admonition from the Torah--to apply existing revelatory material to their current circumstances.

?Then you think wrongly. I have been studying the prophets, the 'nevi'im' for over three decades and know exactly their job. While I agree that it was not as you described (and btw they are called 'psychics'), I disagree that it was their primary task to 'apply existing revelatory material to their current circumstances'. The prophets were sent, and Most well studied Jews know this, to bring the people back to Torah. They were given by G-d specifics in some cases of what would happen if they did not return, they were there basically to warn the people. But the main job was the same, as was Yeshua's to bring the people back to Torah, to walk the way HaShem wanted them to walk before Him.

In the course of doing this, they sometimes offered confirming signs and/or miraculous actions like healing. But the signs were not the message, and the message was not the signs. Sha'ul offered such signs, when appropriate, in the course of his travels. But the signs are not the focus of his writings.

I would beg to differ. Signs do not define a prophet, Moses told us from Adonai that he would raise up a prophet like Moses to speak to the people for Him, so that he wasn't frightening them by speaking directly to them.

The L-RD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken ; 16 According to all that thou desiredst of the L-RD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying , Let me not hear again the voice of the L-RD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And the L-RD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken . 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak , or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die . 21 And if thou say in thine heart, "How shall we know the word which the L-RD hath not spoken ? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the L-RD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass , that is the thing which the L-RD hath not spoken , but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Plain and simple a prophet is one who is elected by G-d to speak for him to humans. It is a relationship well defined in Exodus with Moses and Aaron. Moses was to be like a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron was to be his prophet. Even though Moses was there, Aaron spoke for him because Moses said he couldn't speak well.

There is one other thing that should be known about a prophet, sent by G-d they are also to test the people.

This we also learn about in Torah. Deut 13. If a prophet arises among you and shows you a sign or wonder and uses it to lure you away from G-d and his Torah, G-d is testing you. But you are not to follow him. Instead you are to cling to HaShem and his torah, listen to Him and keep his commandments.

That Prophet is to be put to death for doing so. And in the first century there were thousands of Jews who tried to do the same thing, as we read about in Acts 21. The accusation was that this man was the one who was going about the Diaspora and Teaching everyone against

1. The Jewish people
2. The Torah of G-d
3. The Holy Temple

He was taken outside the Temple to be stoned and was in the process of being stoned for breaking the commandment cited above when he was rescued by the Romans.

Sha'ul offered such signs, when appropriate, in the course of his travels.

Were they appropriate? Why the need to brag about it and why was it needed to 'preach the gospel'? this is not proof that what he preached was from G-d. I don't understand the reasoning. This is what he told the Romans.

Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

In his third letter to the Corinthians he seems to be arguing with them about his 'credentials' and it makes you wonder what had they accused him of that he said this?

Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Where does it say that these are signs of an apostle?

Today, we read Sha'ul's letters, and receive his message--an expansion on both Torah and navi'im, which is applicable to our lives to day. He is part of the ongoing chain of revelation that was first codified at Sinai.

I don't see it that way. He has not been included in the 'chain' by any traditional Jewish writers, aside from his teachings about 'Christ'. Why does it need to be 'expanded' upon? Doesn't it say right in the very Torah, that the way to be obedient to Torah is to:

In order to obey the mitzvot of ADONAI your God which I am giving you, do not add to what I am saying, and do not subtract from it.

It is an interesting read in the Jewish Encyclopedia what was thought of Paul, and is still regarded as "a remarkable piece of Jewish scholarship" .

 

[danny ski]

Judaism is built on disbelief in Jesus?

 

[Lulav]

Originally Posted by Lulav

I don't think he [Paul] had any special knowledge outside a reading of the prophets, he gets his whole [mid]drash off of Isaiah 59
​

Please do not quote me and add to what I said. I was speaking of Paul and that was clear. Also 'drash' is the proper word. Yes, it is short for 'middrash', but it is understood by the word I used. The acronym that many are familiar with, Pardes, stands for PaRDeS. = P'sh@t, Remez, Drash, and Sod. There is no such thing as PaRMes, unless you're hungry for an Italian dish!

Paul as an Apostle was endowed with Supernatural Gifts.

I never said he wasn't.

With the New Covenant a Spiritually born again Messianic has an indwelling presence of Yeshua (our High Priest) abiding and guiding our inner being (Ruach HaKodesh), thus the one new man/woman (Gal 3:28). You might say we have a better guide in us than any outward need for Urim and Thummin. It all revolves around our level of FAITH. That's why it's so important that we cleanse and renew our minds.

No, I wouldn't say that as I believe, as I have previously stated, that the Urim and thummin and breastplate were an actual way for HaShem to communicate with the High Priest. It was not like on the mountain, not face to face, but more like today we may be afraid to face someone in person, but would be able to handle a phone conversation with them. These weren't visions or yes or no's, but direct answers.

Hebrews 11:6 (CJB)
And without trusting, it is impossible to be well pleasing to God, because whoever approaches him must trust that he does exist and that he becomes a Rewarder to those who seek him out.

I don't trust He exsists, it is a no-brainer to me, I totally believe it is true.

Hebrews 11:6

(NIV)

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Either version is misleading though. This actually keeps those who don't believe from taking a chance and coming to him.

Proverbs 3:5-6

(CJB)

5 Trust in Adonai with all your heart; do not rely on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways acknowledge him; then he will level your paths.

One of my most favorite Proverbs, I quote it often.

MJ Statement of Purpose​

7. We believe that the books of B'resheet (Genesis) to the book of Revelation to be the inspired word of Elohim. Any teaching that attempts to invalidate these books of the Bible as being the authoritative inspired word of God will not be acceptable here on the forum.

​

And you felt the need to post this, because???
Again, if you are making an accusation at me about this, you should know that you are bringing false witness against me. As well I am very familiar with these new rules. This is nothing new. In fact, years ago I wrote something similar for the whole forum, just not using the transliterated Hebrew, which is not necessary and may keep those who don't understand it from being able to follow these rules.

I never said that the books in our bible were not inspired. However I will not validate that those who choose what went in and what didn't were inspired, but that's a whole other thing.