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Upon What Basis Do Atheists Claim that Jesus is a Myth?

NothingIsImpossible

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Christians often go about it the wrong way. They answer the question but forget the question goes both ways. You can say "Jesus was proven real by historians!". They will say "But where is the proof of his achievements?". This is why you say "Where is the proof that they didn't happen?". Sort of like "Is God real" question. People can't disprove God. |

Heck a true non-believer who really was into science would know that scientists themselves admit if God is real, they cannot prove it because it falls into the realm of supernatural. Which science cannot currently study. Sure it leaves it up in the air, but at least it shows science hasn't disproven God.
 
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Freodin

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Which is the typical, immature, anti-intellectual mockery that I expect from Atheists. It always goes there for some reason.
Anti-intellectual?
Muhammed is said to have ascended into heaven, bodily, on horseback. You don't believe that, do you?
I really want to know how you, objectively, distinguish between "far fetched claims" and "real things".

The problem with that is the impeccable historical accuracy of the Bible.
But the Bible isn't of "impeccable historical accuracy".That lead to all kinds of apologets trying to bring different accounts into line.

And that is a real problem. You cannot claim "impeccable accuracy", when you have to start to find explanations for why things are not "impeccably accurate".

The Illiad isn't history.
Neither is the Bible. But both contain historical facts. As, to give another "anti-intellectual" example, does "Spiderman".

The Koran and the Bible defy any kind of meaningful comparison.
Only if you don't want to make a comparison.

Either someone is a myth or they are not a myth.
No. "Someone" is a very complex entity... and can contain elements of history and myth.
Alexander the Great doesn't have to be a "myth" in order for some of the stories told about him to be myths.
George Washington can still be the First President of the USA without having to have chopped down a single cherry tree in his whole life.

No, you don't know what you're talking about. Jesus is the central focus of the Bible. The resurrection of Jesus is the vindication of not only Jesus' teachings but of the entire OT that looked forward to His coming and his death on the cross and resurrection. If Jesus did not rise from the dead, nothing about the Bible matters because it would mean that everything prophesied about Him was a lie and that He lied about his own resurrection. If Jesus is still dead, there is no Christianity.
Why? It would be a false religion, just like all the other religions that you don't believe in... but it would still exist.

People can be wrong in their beliefs, even in their most sincere beliefs. You accept that for every single non-Christian (and a lot of Christians who disagree with your position). So why can't you accept it for yourself.

I am not saying that you are wrong. I am just saying that you can be wrong.

But they are not authentic Christians. Authentic Christianity is based on Jesus' resurrection. There are all kinds of people who consider themselves "christians" for reasons that have nothing to do with Jesus. There is a cultural "christianity" out there, but I am not talking about those charlatans and misled people. Authentic, biblical Christianity is solely based on resurrection of Jesus.
As I said: I don't want to go into an apologetic debate about the doctrines or "truths" of Christianity.
I just want you to understand how it looks from the point of view of someone who does not believe in your claims. Not "does not understand your claims." or "Does hate your claims." or something like that.

Just pure, simple scepticsm.

Here you are, and telling me that all those who do not agree with you are "not authentic Christians." These people, on the other hand, tell me that you are "not an authentic Christian". When I ask them for an objective means to distinguis between you and them, you tell me that "I don't know what I am talking about." Just as they tell me.

Well, fine. But then don't blame me for your disagreements.

Which is not true at all.
Really? Then put your money where your mouth is. Demonstrate to me that YOU have a real relationship with Jesus, and others do not.

So far, not a single skeptic has been able to demonstrate anything compelling that would demonstrate that Jesus is a mythological figure.
I am really starting to wonder if you indeed listen to me, or just to the echo inside your head.
I repeatedly said that I do not try to demonstrate that Jesus is a mythological figure. I am only trying to show you that he could be.
 
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JacksBratt

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What evidence do Atheists believe exists to demonstrate that Jesus as depicted in the Bible was/is a mythological figure?
IMO atheists have more faith than Christians, if they believe that all that is in this universe came from nothing and arrived at what we have today.

Also, if an atheist was to believe in God... then they would have to admit that they are a sinner....or that they will have to pay for their sins.
 
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Freodin

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IMO atheists have more faith than Christians, if they believe that all that is in this universe came from nothing and arrived at what we have today.

Also, if an atheist was to believe in God... then they would have to admit that they are a sinner....or that they will have to pay for their sins.
Which, of course, is incorrect. But accepting that would go against your "faith", and it would make it necessary to see those who disagree with you as just other humans instead of some kind of alien monsters or deluded self-absorbed psychopaths.

1. Atheists do not have to believe that the universe comes from nothing. That is just a strawman that Christians hold... but they are not interested in finding out what atheists might really think.
2. Atheists have no problems to accept that they are "sinners" - meaning that they can be and do "wrong". Most atheists are people with a very highly developed moral system. It is just the ideas about what is a "sin" that we differ.
3. If an atheist started to believe in God - meaning of course, your version of God, no other, even if they still would cease to be atheists if they believed in any other deity that you can imagine... they would exactly NOT have to accept that they will have to pay for their sins.
If they started to believe in your God, they would believe that Jesus payed for their sins, and they didn't have to.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Nonsense.


By evaluating the historical evidence. There's so much historical evidence for his existence that if you say it's not enough to prove it, you also need to say there's not enough evidence to prove the existence of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle ,Confucius, or Buddha (to start with). There are very few people of the ancient world for whom there is more historical evidence than Jesus of Nazareth - it has little do do with faith.
Don't you understand brother?
Atheists DO NOT accept the historical Jesus.
And even if they did, they wouldn't accept the resurrection so he'd be just a crazy man that believed himself to be the Messiah.

Jesus didn't leave anything written --- this is a problem for them.
 
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Belk

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Don't you understand brother?
Atheists DO NOT accept the historical Jesus.
And even if they did, they wouldn't accept the resurrection so he'd be just a crazy man that believed himself to be the Messiah.

Jesus didn't leave anything written --- this is a problem for them.

This is incorrect. Some atheists accept a historical Jesus and some do not. The only thing they have in common is they do not believe him to be a God.
 
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GodsGrace101

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This is incorrect. Some atheists accept a historical Jesus and some do not. The only thing they have in common is they do not believe him to be a God.
I think I covered this.
I said that those that accept him as historical must also accept that he was a crazy man that thought he was the Messiah.

So it still doesn't work out...
 
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Belk

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I think I covered this.
I said that those that accept him as historical must also accept that he was a crazy man that thought he was the Messiah.

No, I need accept no such thing. It is entirely possible that the historical Jesus did not think he was the Messiah. There are any number of possibilities. That is part of the issue when a person becomes mythologized.

So it still doesn't work out...

What does not work out? Sorry, I am not understanding.
 
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Rubiks

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This is solely an a priori position. The very fact that it is called 'emergent' means we can't pinpoint where it comes from, but that it must be there somewhere, because we assume it is. If consciousness is emergent from the electro-chemical function of the brain, then far more complex electro-chemical systems like the Sun may be just as conscious; essentially, you are just resurrecting ideas like Pagan Helios.
Fact is, there is no empiric proof that consciousness is an emergent property, nor even an agreed definition of what consciousness entails, or whether or not it is present. There is only no Problem of Consciousness if you abandon Scientific Method, Empiricism and curiosity, and merely assume on blind faith that that non-specific and untestable hypothesis is correct; or deny Consciousness exists at all.

IMO, in order to explain consciousness, you need to either say that the a soul exists, OR consciousness is a inherent property of matter. (Alternatively one could take a solipsist route any deny other conscious beings exists)

I think consciousness is a problem only if one holds to an extreme form of naturalism where only things that can be observed and tested are actually real.

If consciousness is a property of matter, it needs to be conceded that there can exist conscious computers as well.
 
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Belk

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IMO, in order to explain consciousness, you need to either say that the a soul exists, OR consciousness is a inherent property of matter. (Alternatively one could take a solipsist route any deny other conscious beings exists)

I think consciousness is a problem only if one holds to an extreme form of naturalism where only things that can be observed and tested are actually real.

If consciousness is a property of matter, it needs to be conceded that there can exist conscious computers as well.

Why can't it be an emergent property?
 
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GodsGrace101

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No, I need accept no such thing. It is entirely possible that the historical Jesus did not think he was the Messiah. There are any number of possibilities. That is part of the issue when a person becomes mythologized.



What does not work out? Sorry, I am not understanding.
What does not work out is that even if YOU believed Jesus existed as a real person,,,you'd have a problem accepting He was God and you wouldn't believe in the resurrection and if you don't think he was a crazy man who thought He was the Messiah, then you don't know the bible story.
 
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Belk

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What does not work out is that even if YOU believed Jesus existed as a real person,,,you'd have a problem accepting He was God and you wouldn't believe in the resurrection and if you don't think he was a crazy man who thought He was the Messiah, then you don't know the bible story.

Yes. Jesus being God and the stories in the bible are not part of a historical Jesus. That is the entirety of my point. Those are part of the faith based claims.
 
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Rubiks

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This is solely an a priori position. The very fact that it is called 'emergent' means we can't pinpoint where it comes from, but that it must be there somewhere, because we assume it is. If consciousness is emergent from the electro-chemical function of the brain, then far more complex electro-chemical systems like the Sun may be just as conscious; essentially, you are just resurrecting ideas like Pagan Helios.
Fact is, there is no empiric proof that consciousness is an emergent property, nor even an agreed definition of what consciousness entails, or whether or not it is present. There is only no Problem of Consciousness if you abandon Scientific Method, Empiricism and curiosity, and merely assume on blind faith that that non-specific and untestable hypothesis is correct; or deny Consciousness exists at all.

I mean, the fact that we assign consciousness to human-like things (humans being the most conscious, followed by vertebrate animals, etc.) and infer that only things that seem to have consciousness can only be conscious seems woefully naïve to me.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Yes. Jesus being God and the stories in the bible are not part of a historical Jesus. That is the entirety of my point. Those are part of the faith based claims.
What faith based claims?
Please explain.
We have before us a man who claimed to be God.
He claimed to have a Kingdom on Earth.
He said He was the great I AM.
He went around for over 3 years and made miracles.
Was HE crazy?
Were those who followed him crazy?
Did people of the time believe in miracles because they were so dumb?
A normal man would go the THE CROSS and die CRUCIFIED and knew He would if he returned to Jerusalem since the Sanhedrin was already plotting against him and He KNEW IT...
And he STILL went to Jerusalem knowing what was waiting for him?
This is a normal human being?
No. He was either the Messiah, or he was crazy.
Not even a liar like some might think...or someone that a myth got built around...
what myth? It was either true or it wasn't.

Take a look at this:

Questions | Uncover
 
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Freodin

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... then you don't know the bible story.
Perhaps you need to realize something:
What someone says is not necessarily true. That would make this person wrong... either by mistake, by delusion or by intent.

But what is said about a person doesn't have to be necessarily true either... and that would tell you nothing about the person in question.
 
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Belk

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What faith based claims?
Please explain.

The claims such as Jesus being the son of God, doing miracles, these claims have no evidence and are believed based of off faith.

We have before us a man who claimed to be God.
He claimed to have a Kingdom on Earth.
He said He was the great I AM.
He went around for over 3 years and made miracles.
Was HE crazy?
Were those who followed him crazy?
Did people of the time believe in miracles because they were so dumb?
A normal man would go the THE CROSS and die CRUCIFIED and knew He would if he returned to Jerusalem since the Sanhedrin was already plotting against him and He KNEW IT...
And he STILL went to Jerusalem knowing what was waiting for him?
This is a normal human being?
No. He was either the Messiah, or he was crazy.
Not even a liar like some might think...or someone that a myth got built around...
what myth? It was either true or it wasn't.

Sorry but I am not going to buy into a false dichotomy no matter how many times you present it. There are more then just two possibilities here. Simply because the bible makes these claims it does not mean it is accurate. That is not part of the historical claims.


No thank you.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Perhaps you need to realize something:
What someone says is not necessarily true. That would make this person wrong... either by mistake, by delusion or by intent.

But what is said about a person doesn't have to be necessarily true either... and that would tell you nothing about the person in question.
Do you think I woke up yesterday and decided to become Christian?

There's nothing you can tell me I haven't considered.
There's no need for you to try to convince me God doesn't exist just like I don't try to convince you He does.

Unless, of course I'm answer to YOU.
I cannot make you a believer and you cannot make me an atheist.
 
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