UPDATE - Baby Dedication / Upset with Pastor

[daisypromise]

I understand what you are saying about their vows privately before God but I still think they should officially get married. I agree with the comments about obeying the law of the land.

If they make their declaration between themselves and God then what if they choose not to be together any longer - would that be divorce then? Would they have broken a covenant relationship? If this is so then what about those many people who get together and break up engagements and the like - have they then not by that argument divorced? If they met someone else would it be adultery? I am not trying to argue issues such as divorce here but to make the point that how you define when someone is married has a knock on effect on many other issues.

Where are the witnesses to this 'marriage'? Who can confirm that they are married? I know God is a witness but even in old Testament times (except maybe Adam and Eve ) it appears to me that other people were involved in a marriage. For example, parenst paying for receiving the bride into the family.

If marriage is this easy then anyone can declare themselves married before God. What about those of us whom at 5 years old declared themselves married in the school playground - even before God?

 

[joyousliving]

I understand what you are saying about their vows privately before God but I still think they should officially get married. I agree with the comments about obeying the law of the land.

If they make their declaration between themselves and God then what if they choose not to be together any longer - would that be divorce then? Would they have broken a covenant relationship? If this is so then what about those many people who get together and break up engagements and the like - have they then not by that argument divorced? If they met someone else would it be adultery? I am not trying to argue issues such as divorce here but to make the point that how you define when someone is married has a knock on effect on many other issues.

Where are the witnesses to this 'marriage'? Who can confirm that they are married? I know God is a witness but even in old Testament times (except maybe Adam and Eve ) it appears to me that other people were involved in a marriage. For example, parenst paying for receiving the bride into the family.

If marriage is this easy then anyone can declare themselves married before God. What about those of us whom at 5 years old declared themselves married in the school playground - even before God?

Daisy

Excuse me if I didn't make myself clear. At this point I consider the baby dedication a minor issue. The fact that they are Christians raising a family together and are as yet unmarried is the most important issue.

Bellatori is asserting for several reasons that there living together is not a sin in the eyes of God. They took their vows to be married privately and God knows their hearts. Additionally, they are planning a traditional wedding ceremony and in would be inconvenient for them to marry now and have the "ceremony" as a rememberance of the vows that would take officially now.
I believe that all of these reasons are merely rationalizations.

I totally agree with you that in order to fulfill the requirements of man's law a couple needs to have a license and take their vows before witnesses in order to be legally married. We should submit to the authority of our governments to the extent that it does not require us to disobey God's law. Requiring a marriage license does not violate God's law.

1 Peter 2:13-15 "Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men."

My point is that if she wishes to rationalize their sin then she should be consistent. The baby dedication is not a requirement of God or man. All Christians are responsible to raise their children in a godly home to the best of their ability. If it was sufficient to speak to God privately about there marriage, it should be sufficient to speak to God privately about the dedication of this child.

Living together violates the scripture that asks us to live in such a way that we do not even hint at sin in our lives. Living together violates God's requirement that sex and child rearing be reserved for couples who are married. Living together damages their testimony as Christians to their children, their family, their friends. It is open and willful sin.

Again, my purpose is not to condemn them. They are young Christians and do not have a full understanding of the beauty of God's law. I committed this same sin myself. I know the consequences. It breaks my heart to see them walking into that very same trap because I know that it can impact their lives together as a married couple for the rest of their lives.

I truly believe that this is a wonderful opportunity to submit to God's authority and see how God can bless them for their obedience to Him. I know it is a bit embarrassing, even a bit inconvenient, but God's way is always best.

 

[HisFireFly]

Again, my purpose is not to condemn them. They are young Christians and do not have a full understanding of the beauty of God's law. I committed this same sin myself. I know the consequences. It breaks my heart to see them walking into that very same trap because I know that it can impact their lives together as a married couple for the rest of their lives.

I truly believe that this is a wonderful opportunity to submit to God's authority and see how God can bless them for their obedience to Him. I know it is a bit embarrassing, even a bit inconvenient, but God's way is always best.

and again! It grieves me also to know that GOD desires to pour out HIS richest blessings on this family but cannot due to their disobedience. Yes, HE will love them anyway, because of Who HE is, but there is so much more waiting for them when they submit to HIS will.

I pray that a spirit of wisdom would flood over them even now and begin to speak truth about the glorious mysteries of our LORD and the unspeakable joy that awaits those who are obedient.

HisFireFly

 

[joyousliving]

and again! It grieves me also to know that GOD desires to pour out HIS richest blessings on this family but cannot due to their disobedience. Yes, HE will love them anyway, because of Who HE is, but there is so much more waiting for them when they submit to HIS will.

I pray that a spirit of wisdom would flood over them even now and begin to speak truth about the glorious mysteries of our LORD and the unspeakable joy that awaits those who are obedient.

HisFireFly

I am agreeing with you in prayer sis!

 

[daisypromise]

I am sorry if my last post appeared that I was in agreement with living together outside of marriage. I do not agree that they are married or that they should live together. I was trying to make that point in my post by looking at it from different angles.

 

[rogsr]

Please refer to my earlier post quoting how the bible teaches that we are to follow the laws of the land that we live in.

Paul taught this and I do not agree with it wholly. If you lived in Nazi Germany and it was law that you kill 30 jews would you do it, just because it was law? I know I wouldn't, that would be utterly foolish. Also, there is no law which states two adults with children are required to get married. If there is I would like for you to prove it.

A child baptism in the Church of England requires the following statements to be made...

I am an American Episcopal, which is kind of like Church of England, and we had an unmarried family in our congregation last year. They were just like a married family, except they were not married. I never knew that they were not married until they announced a church wide invitation to their wedding, as it is really non of my business what kind of family they have. Now they are married and they look just the same as they did before. Just like this young ladies family looks the same now and will continue to look after they are married in the fall. Except to say she won't have to dodge anymore stones. Imagine that, going to church without having to worry about the judgements of man-what an interesting concept. So overall, I do not see where you are going with this Church of England-Book of Common Prayer-Baptismal Rite argument. Even if the parents were not married and were doing Church of England Baptismal Rites where does it ask for the husband of wife to step forward? It asks for the parents correct? So, you are misinterpreting that which it is nearly impossible to misinterpret, just to find a reason to burn a young mother at the stake.

They are not considered legally married because they have not been willing to comply with the laws in their jurisdiction regarding marriage.

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT LAWFUL MARRIAGE HERE, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SPIRITUAL MARRIAGE, AND WHY SPIRITUAL MARRIAGE IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR DEDICATION RITES.

With that being said, I will say that I agree with you that they should get married and in private I gave this young lady advice from my heart. Also, the pastor is free to turn anyone away from partaking in any rite, for his church is his church and he is charged with tending to its SPIRITUAL needs to the best of his ability. BUT, I believe, whole heartedly, that a spiritual commitment between two individuals is plenty of "proof" for a spiritual man, such a her minister, to be able to see beyond a marriage certificate.

As for the rest of your post: Our worldviews are clearly different, but perhaps not in so many ways. I am a liberal theologian (not a wishywashy theologian-liberal), and I know and love a Lord that reaches out to all, regardless of gender, race, cultural background, or even sexual orientation. These people, ourselves included, may not be perfect, but we are His and I believe that is enough for Him. If it were not I believe my conscience would have been screaming this entire time. It is not, and I feel at peace with God. So, in your church you can cast out the lost, the lonely, and those in need of close attention. You can direct them to our church down the road, we are willing to bring them in.

Peace, and thank you for the discussion-

 

[LiberatedChick]

Paul taught this and I do not agree with it wholly. If you lived in Nazi Germany and it was law that you kill 30 jews would you do it, just because it was law? I know I wouldn't, that would be utterly foolish.

No, because that law would go against the biblical law of not killing. I thought it was obvious that we should not follow the laws of the land if they contradict the bible. But as it was not I've stated that now.

Also, there is no law which states two adults with children are required to get married. If there is I would like for you to prove it.

Not in mans law but God requires that we marry if we're to have sexual relationships as sex outside marriage is sin. In mans law to marry we have to go through a ceremony and get a certificate.

I am an American Episcopal, which is kind of like Church of England, and we had an unmarried family in our congregation last year. They were just like a married family, except they were not married. I never knew that they were not married until they announced a church wide invitation to their wedding, as it is really non of my business what kind of family they have. Now they are married and they look just the same as they did before. Just like this young ladies family looks the same now and will continue to look after they are married in the fall. Except to say she won't have to dodge anymore stones. Imagine that, going to church without having to worry about the judgements of man-what an interesting concept. So overall, I do not see where you are going with this Church of England-Book of Common Prayer-Baptismal Rite argument. Even if the parents were not married and were doing Church of England Baptismal Rites where does it ask for the husband of wife to step forward? It asks for the parents correct? So, you are misinterpreting that which it is nearly impossible to misinterpret, just to find a reason to burn a young mother at the stake.

As others have stated they are not judging anyone, I'm not judging anyone either. I'm stating what I believe and what I believe is that marriage requires a ceremony as mans law states this and that I understand their pastors view if the dedication requires statements from the parents saying that they turn from sin. I was living and sleeping with my husband before we married so I'm hardly going to "burn someone at the stake" for it. Whether I did it or not and no matter who else does it that won't change the fact that it's sinful. Yes, child baptism doesn't ask for husband and wife but it does ask that the parents repent from sin. I know I personally could not bring myself to say before God that I'd turn away from sin when I'm just going to go straight back to sinning, I would hope that other Christians wouldn't either.

 

[joyousliving]

Paul taught this and I do not agree with it wholly.

Two comments....

Peter taught that we were to obey the government as well. He had the audacity to tell the early church under the persecution of Nero that they should be submissive to the authorty of their government. 1 Peter 2:13-15 I won't bother arguing about the inspiration of scripture.

There is nothing oppressive about getting legally married. There is nothing in the law requiring a man and wife to say their vows before witnesses that contradicts scripture. No harm will come from them saying their vows now. It is not likely that their government requires them to be married to live together (although there were laws against such things not too many years ago). But when taken in context of this situation to say that they are married implies that they are legally married.

My second comment is this. She wants to be inconsistent in what is acceptable before God. Her private confession of fidelity to her boyfriend is sufficient but her private dedication to raise her child in a godly home is not.

 

[Jim Woodell]

It seems to me that the question that needs to be answered is , "What constitutes marriage?" What a group of people look like on the outside does not constitute marriage or a family. Read Malachi 3:13-16.

When God said, "Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral," (Heb. 13:4) What was he talkiing about? Without two people submitting to the laws of the land there is no marriage.

According to the teaching of Ephesians 5:22-33, marriage without complying with the laws of land makes as much sense as salvation without the death of Christ.

 

[TheMainException]

Yes...I see your point...you are very right Bellatori...although I personally believe in a ceremony and such, i don't think that you should worry about this, except that I would make it legal so that things don't get too yucky later. But really, go on with life as you have been, as Jesus said "Go and sin no more" past is past by this time...marry and don't worry about what HAS HAPPENED...but look forward to more wonderful times with your man...god bless...you seem to have been lucky in the man you have...;-)~

 

[Radagast]

I completely agree. Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding cermony in Cana (John 2:1-11).

I count 49 mentions of marriage in my Bible. Marriage requires a public ceremony in front of the Church for the same reasons that baby dedication does (indeed Revelation 19 and 21 speak of the Church as a "bride"). I hope you will do this soon.

I hope that you soon resolve this, and listen to your pastor, and that it does not have a negative effect on your Christian life,

-- Radagast