Unveiling Mormonism

[bbbbbbb]

Again, I did not determin how you received your personal revelation, I asked you How you know it was from God.I know you don´t believe in revelation because of your closing sentence. I only question your claim logically from what you are saying in contradiction to your belief.
You still have not answered my question. How do you know you received a revelation from God about Jesus Christs Church, especially when you do not believe in revelation ???
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Hi, hope you had a nice weekend !
Sorry for my delay in answering your reply, I got banned for asking a simple question from the scriptures ? Matthew 16: 15-19.
I question the "Powers" that be who run CF. In my opinion, they are not Godly or "christian" natured towards hearing the truth ! I mean, the spirit that influences them is not from God. (Albion, Redheaded....etc.)

I'm sorry you got banned and wondered why you hadn't responded. I find myself getting reported from time to time and am equally puzzledf about these things. One bit of advice might be to tone down the rhetoric and the font size so it doesn't look like you are waving a red flag in your opponent's face. By the way, I have never reported anyone and have no intention of reporting you. Even though we might disagree, I hope you will also not report me. Getting banned doesn't accomplish anything, in my opinion.

I really didn't mean to say that you rejected the whole Bible, because I know better than that and apologize for saying that. I meant that I appreciated the fact that you consider parts of the Bible to be fraudulent and, therefore, reject them. Most LDS I have met refuse to admit that.

I agree entirely that revelation is a huge thing. That is why I am at a loss that you have jumped to such quick conclusions about the revelation I received from God, simply because it runs entirely against your own experience. Although it is obvious that if the same God provided these revelations to us He would, at best, be contradictory, some would have no problem believing that. I do, however, believe that God does not contradict Himself and so, apparently, do you.

My revelation was about the Gospel of Jesus Christ and not the Church, although from it I concluded that any other gospel proclaimed by any other one or any other church than that which was revealed to me, must be false and, as the verse in Galatians said, condemned (anathema). It appears that your revelation, like others in the LDS, focussed on the Church.

You say that you know that I don't believe in revelation. I would like to know how you can be so convinced of that, as well as the fact that you know that I did not receive a revelation from God.

Thank you.

 

[MamaZ]

I myself can attest that the Latter day saints are not the what someone would say the true church. They preach a different Gospel and they preach a different Jesus.

 

[Matrixguru]

I'm sorry you got banned and wondered why you hadn't responded. I find myself getting reported from time to time and am equally puzzledf about these things. One bit of advice might be to tone down the rhetoric and the font size so it doesn't look like you are waving a red flag in your opponent's face. By the way, I have never reported anyone and have no intention of reporting you. Even though we might disagree, I hope you will also not report me. Getting banned doesn't accomplish anything, in my opinion.

I really didn't mean to say that you rejected the whole Bible, because I know better than that and apologize for saying that. I meant that I appreciated the fact that you consider parts of the Bible to be fraudulent and, therefore, reject them. Most LDS I have met refuse to admit that.

I agree entirely that revelation is a huge thing. That is why I am at a loss that you have jumped to such quick conclusions about the revelation I received from God, simply because it runs entirely against your own experience. Although it is obvious that if the same God provided these revelations to us He would, at best, be contradictory, some would have no problem believing that. I do, however, believe that God does not contradict Himself and so, apparently, do you.

My revelation was about the Gospel of Jesus Christ and not the Church, although from it I concluded that any other gospel proclaimed by any other one or any other church than that which was revealed to me, must be false and, as the verse in Galatians said, condemned (anathema). It appears that your revelation, like others in the LDS, focussed on the Church.

You say that you know that I don't believe in revelation. I would like to know how you can be so convinced of that, as well as the fact that you know that I did not receive a revelation from God.

Thank you.

Thank you most kindly for your understanding Bb.
I can only say, Mathew 16: 15-19 is of Great significance, more than most people realise. It depicts a Revelation (not through flesh and blood) How Jesus will build His Church (on Revelation). A Church which is built on Direct Revelation cannot be destroyed by satan. Would you agree ?
The whole of secular "christianity" stems from this scripture. The catholic church was built upon it, thinking Peter was the "Rock" and almost all "christian" religions originate from the catholic church. Now, if the catholic church did not receive the authority from God,( Hebrews 5: verse 4 ) what does that mean ?
What are the "Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven", which Peter should receive ?
A lot of children of God accept things so naively, without questioning the deep sorce of where and by whom their doctrine was founded and by whose Authority.

By the way, the Bible is also not written and put together in chronological order ! Did you know that ?

Unfortunately, I have to go to work now and will continue to answer your question asap.



God Bless you.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Thank you most kindly for your understanding Bb.
I can only say, Mathew 16: 15-19 is of Great significance, more than most people realise. It depicts a Revelation (not through flesh and blood) How Jesus will build His Church (on Revelation). A Church which is built on Direct Revelation cannot be destroyed by satan. Would you agree ?
The whole of secular "christianity" stems from this scripture. The catholic church was built upon it, thinking Peter was the "Rock" and almost all "christian" religions originate from the catholic church. Now, if the catholic church did not receive the authority from God,( Hebrews 5: verse 4 ) what does that mean ?
What are the "Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven", which Peter should receive ?
A lot of children of God accept things so naively, without questioning the deep sorce of where and by whom their doctrine was founded and by whose Authority.

By the way, the Bible is also not written and put together in chronological order ! Did you know that ?

Unfortunately, I have to go to work now and will continue to answer your question asap.



God Bless you.

Thank you for your brief reply, matrixguru. As I stated previously my personal revelation concerned the gospel of Jesus Christ. Without the gospel there would be no church. With the church only we would have religious people, but not Christians. It is the gospel which saves people and not the church.

However, I will address your comments. I find it interesting that various denominations focus on particular verses as being key to their identity. I know one group that takes Acts 2:42 as definitive of the church. The Roman Catholic Church takes the same passage that you mentioned. They have many of the same arguments that the LDS present, plus the argument that they have an unbroken series of Popes, which corresponds to the office of Prophet, Seer, and Revelator in the LDS. On the face of it, their argument is more compelling in that they don't have to explain a nineteen century gap in time.

I agree entirely that the gates of hell have not prevailed against the church of God such that there has never been a period of Apostasy in which Satan prevented the existence of the Bride of Christ, the Church from existing on this earth. However, I also am convinced that the Church is not the monolithic organizational structure as defined by the RCC and the LDS, but is composed of individual believers in Christ who are built up into a holy dweling of God through the Spirit.

The essential point of agreement that we have in this matter is that the RCC has a false argument and that the argument first developed by the Reformers in the sixteenth century is correct - that the passage refers to a church built upon the confession (or revelation, if you will) of Peter and not upon Peter, the individual. There are numerous churches which hold this view, the LDS being one of many. The point of disagreement is that Christ came to establish a monolithic religious organization.

The RCC maintains that the Keys were uniquely passed to Peter and enabled him to save and excommunicate individuals. They maintain that the Pope has that same ability to the present day. The Eastern Orthodox Churches have a similar view in regard to the original Apostles and their successors, the Patriarchs. Thus, in their view these keys were never lost nor neglected and remain firmly held by either the Pope or the Patriarchs.

In the LDS, if I am not mistaken, the keys mystically appeared and were given to Mr. Smith, who has passed them on to his successors. They are believed to have similar powers as those in Rome.

The Protestant view, with which I agree, is that Peter and the other apostles, through the preaching of the gospel, opened heaven to all who believed and thus their sins were forgiven through faith in Christ. Each believer in Jesus Christ since that time has been entrusted with the proclamation of the gospel for the salvation of mankind. Thus, for example, Philip excercised the keys in proclaiming the gospel to the Ethiopian eunuch.

Of course I know that the order of the books of the BIble is not chronological. Is this a significant fact relative to personal revealtion?

I look forward to your further response.

God bless you.

 

[Matrixguru]

]Thank you for your brief reply, matrixguru. As I stated previously my personal revelation concerned the gospel of Jesus Christ. Without the gospel there would be no church.

I thank you for attempting to explain, but you still haven´t explained How your personal revelation took place ie, in what shape,manner or form ?

With the church only we would have religious people, but not Christians. It is the gospel which saves people and not the church.

It is Jesus Christ who Saves people, not the Gospel. The Gospel is only part of the way we are taught to believe and develope our fath in God and Jesus Christ. The Gospel is not the only help. The Church is a gathering place for the uplifting and edification of the Saints in the teachings of the One True Doctrine of Jesus Christ.

However, I will address your comments. I find it interesting that various denominations focus on particular verses as being key to their identity. I know one group that takes Acts 2:42 as definitive of the church. The Roman Catholic Church takes the same passage that you mentioned. They have many of the same arguments that the LDS present, plus the argument that they have an unbroken series of Popes, which corresponds to the office of Prophet, Seer, and Revelator in the LDS. On the face of it, their argument is more compelling in that they don't have to explain a nineteen century gap in time.

And can you please tell me How wide the Gap was before the "orginisation" of the catholic church and also how wide the Gap was from the Old Testament until the coming of Jesus ?
Gaps and times are not relevant to God, even Jesus doesn´t know when He will return !
As to the latter part of this quote from you.
There is No comparison between the catholic church and The Church of Jesus Christ´s. Only a misunderstanding of the catholic and every other christian organisation and also by you,(except The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS) as to what the Keys are ?

I agree entirely that the gates of hell have not prevailed against the church of God such that there has never been a period of Apostasy in which Satan prevented the existence of the Bride of Christ, the Church from existing on this earth.

If you believe that, then you are not only trying to kid me or any others who are observing these post, but yourself !
The Apostacy took place during and after the Apostles were murdered and it still continues today in the EVIDENCE of the differing Doctrinal teachings of the "Gospel" !

However, I also am convinced that the Church is not the monolithic organizational structure as defined by the RCC and the LDS, but is composed of individual believers in Christ who are built up into a holy dweling of God through the Spirit.

You are mistaken. God has Always had gathering places, especially Temples, where Sacred Ordinances of the Priesthood took place. That will never change.
You have No Authority alone ! In fact, it is not Good to be alone, that´s why God created help meets.
Are you called of God ? Do you take upon you the Authority of God alone ?
Read Hebrews 5: 4

The essential point of agreement that we have in this matter is that the RCC has a false argument and that the argument first developed by the Reformers in the sixteenth century is correct - that the passage refers to a church built upon the confession (or revelation, if you will) of Peter and not upon Peter, the individual. There are numerous churches which hold this view, the LDS being one of many. The point of disagreement is that Christ came to establish a monolithic religious organization.

Mathew 16: 15-19
The Church of Jesus Christ has and is been, Built on Revelation.
God and Jesus Christ are God´s of Order, with Ordinances passed on through the laying on of hands !

The RCC maintains that the Keys were uniquely passed to Peter and enabled him to save and excommunicate individuals. They maintain that the Pope has that same ability to the present day. The Eastern Orthodox Churches have a similar view in regard to the original Apostles and their successors, the Patriarchs. Thus, in their view these keys were never lost nor neglected and remain firmly held by either the Pope or the Patriarchs.

by the Laying On of Hands

The "Keys" are Symbolic !
The Keys given to Peter is the Holy Melchezadic Priesthood of God recieved by the Laying On of Hands by those in Authority (Called, Heb. 5: 4)!

In the LDS, if I am not mistaken, the keys mystically appeared and were given to Mr. Smith, who has passed them on to his successors. They are believed to have similar powers as those in Rome.

You are mistaken again, like many !
The (Keys) Holy Melchezadic Priesthood was given (returned and passed on) by the Laying on of Hands of Peter, James and John to Joseph Smith in a Revelation to Joseph Smith.
Authority Restored, Priesthood Restored, (Keys)

The Protestant view, with which I agree, is that Peter and the other apostles, through the preaching of the gospel, opened heaven to all who believed and thus their sins were forgiven through faith in Christ.

You are mistaken.
The Apostles were brutally murdered and the Authority, (Keys) Priesthood was lost The begining of the Apostacy. You can read in Timothy how it started, even Paul reprehmanded about falling into Pagan rituals.
Faith without works is Dead. Faith alone does Not Save !

Each believer in Jesus Christ since that time has been entrusted with the proclamation of the gospel for the salvation of mankind. Thus, for example, Philip excercised the keys in proclaiming the gospel to the Ethiopian eunuch

Sorry my friend, I do not agree with this flimsy statement. God is Not Flimsy. God is a God of rules and Order.
Proclaiming Differing Doctrines "Entrusted" by God to man is Not His Way !
The Priesthood was taken away but restored, in God´s time, through an inquiring young man called Joseph Smith in 1830.
This is the Church of Jesus Christ which He told Peter He would Build, through Revelation, (Rock). It is His Authority here on earth and the gates of Hell Will Not prevail against it.
Now, the only way one can know this, is by a revelation by God the Father, Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost,
If one has had this revelation, one will know for sure the "Symtoms" thereof !
You have Not told me the "Symptoms" thereof which told you the contrary !

Of course I know that the order of the books of the BIble is not chronological. Is this a significant fact relative to personal revealtion?

Oh yes this is significant. !
Or should we just accept it, like the squabbling "early fathers" (Namely, prior to and after Constantine, Nicea ca, 360 after the death of Christ) of the "church", who differed on the very canonisation of the Bible and Doctrines thereof ?
I would suggest that as being naive.

I look forward to your further response.

God bless you.[/quote

I look forward to your response !

God Bless you too.

 

[MamaZ]

You are mistaken. God has Always had gathering places, especially Temples, where Sacred Ordinances of the Priesthood took place. That will never change.

Oh But it has Changed.. Now we the church the Body of Christ are His temple..

The Apostles were brutally murdered and the Authority, (Keys) Priesthood was lost The begining of the Apostacy. You can read in Timothy how it started, even Paul reprehmanded about falling into Pagan rituals.
Faith without works is Dead. Faith alone does Not Save !

The Rock is what? Christ is the Messiah the King.. Hell will never ever not ever prevail against this..

The (Keys) Holy Melchezadic Priesthood was given (returned and passed on) by the Laying on of Hands of Peter, James and John to Joseph Smith in a Revelation to Joseph Smith.
Authority Restored, Priesthood Restored, (Keys)

Wrong Answer.. For to have this Preisthood one must have no earthly Father... Only one would succumb to that.. Christ Himself..

It is Jesus Christ who Saves people, not the Gospel.

The Gospel is what is being preached that Christ Saves.. By believing in Christ one is saved..

 

[MamaZ]

If one does not preach the Gospel how can one be saved?

 

[MamaZ]

So basically, we do all we can, which can never be enough, and Christ's atonement covers the difference.

unscriptual.. For Christ blood covers it all. We dont do all we can. For we can do nothing to become Holy.. This is why righteousness is imputed to us.. Not our own But Christs. Nothing we can do can ever make us righteous..

 

[MamaZ]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is Jesus Christs Church and Authority, Restored on this Earth through Joseph Smith, a 14 year old Prophet of the Lord.

Wrong answer again.. Joseph Smith was never a true prophet of the Lord..This is why we are told to test the Spirits to see if they are of God.

Morini

Do you not know that this is a name given to the spirit of death...

 

[Matrixguru]

Oh But it has Changed..

For your information; God NEVER changes, especially to cater for individual apostate beliefs. God has ALWAYS had Prophets and Apostles at His designated times and places where they met. Jesus also taught in the TEMPLE: (Temple; a Holy Building of God)
Mattew 16: 15-19 Jesus Christ will Build His Church (Build as in Building; Church as in; place of worship)

Now we the church the Body of Christ are His temple..

Who are we ? What Church ? What is the Body of Christ ? Which Temple ?

The Rock is what?

Exactly. If you´d care to read my post more clearly you might know the answer to that question !

Christ is the Messiah the King..

Undoubtably !

Hell will never ever not ever prevail against this.. Wrong Answer..

Sorry, lost ya there for the first part, what is ; this ? but you´re right at the end,
Wrong Answer !

For to have this Preisthood one must have no earthly Father... Only one would succumb to that.. Christ Himself..

Now you´re really losing yourself here.
Jesus Christ received the Holy Melchezadic Priesthood (Keys).
Read :HEBREWS
Jesus Gave Peter these "Keys" (Priesthood) Its called Ordaining. Now, you alone cannot Ordain yourself. One must be "Called of God" Hebrews 5: 4.

The Gospel is what is being preached that Christ Saves..

Jesus Christ saves, correct.

By believing in Christ one is saved..

Sorry, satan also believes in Jesus Christ, but he is not saved !
Faith without works is dead.
How arrogant to say "One is Saved". One has NOT been before the judgement bar of God, or have you received a Direct Revelation from God,saying you´ve been saved ?
Here´s a few scriptures for you; Ephes. 2: 8,
James 2: verses 14, 18 and 22.

Finally; 1 John 1: 8 !

 

[Matrixguru]

Joseph Smith was never a true prophet of the Lord..

How do you Know that personally ?

This is why we are told to test the Spirits to see if they are of God.

Now, How do you test the spirits ???

Do you not know that this is a name given to the spirit of death...

Which comic books are you reading from ???

 

[MamaZ]

Who are we ? What Church ? What is the Body of Christ ? Which Temple ?

Born again believers. Those born of the Spirit of God coming through the cross of Christ alone and not by any other means.. Being washed in the blood. The new covenant..

God NEVER changes, especially to cater for individual apostate beliefs. God has ALWAYS had Prophets and Apostles at His designated times and places where they met. Jesus also taught in the TEMPLE: (Temple; a Holy Building of God)
Mattew 16: 15-19 Jesus Christ will Build His Church (Build as in Building; Church as in; place of worship)

It is not in a building that God has His temple made from Human hands.. Christ temple is in His People.. Not in a church denomination at all.. This is why Paul states this..
1Co 6:15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be!
1Co 6:16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH."
1Co 6:17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Now here we see where the true temple really is..
1Co 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

 

[MamaZ]

How do you Know that personally ?

We take what he has said and taught and line them up with the written words of the true Apostles and the OT prophets..

Which comic books are you reading from ???

May I ask what clown you are?

 

[Matrixguru]

We take what he has said and taught and line them up with the written words of the true Apostles and the OT prophets..

Your answer is feeble and wrought with mans doctrines and Not the Doctrine of Jesus Christ. "born again and again christians" have Not received the Witness, Authority and Testimony of Jesus the Christ !
In fact, you are all so scared of the Truth that many, but not all, in your ignorances, deny the very Truth thereof and are led away into foolish doctrines of the devil.

Read; 1 John 1: 8 and give me your answer to that scripture ?

May I ask what clown you are?

I´d rather be a clown bringing Joy and Truth to God´s Children than an idiot serving satan and turning away people from the True and Everlasting Gospel of Jesus the Christ !

 

[MamaZ]

Your answer is feeble and wrought with mans doctrines and Not the Doctrine of Jesus Christ. "born again and again christians" have Not received the Witness, Authority and Testimony of Jesus the Christ !
In fact, you are all so scared of the Truth that many, but not all, in your ignorances, deny the very Truth thereof and are led away into foolish doctrines of the devil.

What is the Doctrine of Christ? That ye must be born again to enter the kindgom of heaven.. Scared of the truth? I am in no way scared Of Jesus. For He is the truth.

Lets examine all of John shall we
1Jn 1:1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life--
1Jn 1:2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--
1Jn 1:3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.
1Jn 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
1Jn 1:7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

 

[MamaZ]

Who ever said I have not sinned? And where did I ever say that I do not have sin the dwells with in me?

 

[MamaZ]

One young boy at the age of 14 takes his imagination and people today are following this imagination of a 14 year old boy and claiming this to be truth.. Amazing isn't it?

 

[Matrixguru]

One young boy at the age of 14 takes his imagination and people today are following this imagination of a 14 year old boy and claiming this to be truth..

Amazing isn't it?

Yes, God and Jesus Christ are Amazing ! You shouldn´t be so surprised, He continues to reveal simple truths to us through His chosen Prophets and Apostles.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is GROWING by the thousands every day and you, nor any other worker of satan, will ever prevail against it !
Matthew 16: 15-19

 

[MamaZ]

Tee hee so you believe I guess.. But Jesus said few are they that find it. So just because the numbers go up does not mean much. It is not by popularity. Worker of Satan.. Well My Jesus was accused of the same thing. The things inside the mormon religion are so far out.

 

[MamaZ]

It is crumbling from within.. For some of the scriptures that Joseph smith said were scripture have been found to be something other than.. Here is an example

Joseph Smith said he translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyri he bought from a traveling exhibition. He "translated" and presented it to his Church as Scripture. To this day it is part of the Pearl of Great Price.
What he thought was a record of Abraham in Egypt is really an Egyptian funeral text. It has since been translated by several Egyptologists who are in total agreement on that.