Unrealistic beauty standards?

[Tropical Wilds]

No, I'm not talking about "Is this workplace appropriate?" I'm talking about something that goes beyond that. "Is this going to be perceived well by the fashion-obsessed?"

That is a self-imposed filter, not a societal one. It would be like saying society puts pressure on me to see Marvel movies because there’s a group of people who’s passion is movies. Society isn’t requiring it, I want to impress them so I am requiring it of myself.

And as for trends, we were a pharmaceutical company! Yeah, we stocked things like hair dye and perfume but clothing; the closest we might have come might have been specialist hosiery. I mean really!

I mean really what? Ignoring that cosmetics is a multi-billion dollar industry that is hand-in-hand with fashion, if their job is to critique trends for merchandising, you can be incredulous all you want, but that’s a job that’s going to attract fashion and trend minded people as it’s a basic cornerstone of their job.

Even if it wasn’t, one doesn’t need to be a certain career to have a personal interest in fashion. A group of people who are trendsetters and fashionistas as a personal interest can collect anywhere, just as any subset of people with a personal interest can. That’s not a reflection of you or a demand society is making on you to fit in.

This is one example of how I've experienced basic society's demands. It may or may not reflect your experience. But this is what has been driving me mental in this thread; the gaslighting that says "Your experience wasn't really what you think it was." My experience was my experience, and it's really not okay to keep telling me how much I'm misunderstanding my own experience.

For the thousandth time, as told by me and several other people, nobody is discounting your experience or saying it didn’t exist. I’m sure you felt pressure to fit in, but you’re saying it’s society pressure, peer pressure, unique burdens of being female, etc etc... But asking yourself if clothes will impress a group of women of a particular interest at your job and having people notice that you’re wearing a different height heel than you normally do isn’t a reflection of society’s pressures. It just isn’t.

A common pattern is you seem to internalize a lot and then blame that on external factors, confusing it as pressure by society or an attack, when you’re not validated like you’d like. You’re doing it in your examples and frankly, you’re doing it here. Things like asking “will this impress the fashionistas at work?” is a self-imposed filter born of a unique part of a subset of people interested in fashion and a personal desire to appeal to them. It’s not a societal pressure. A societal pressure is “I have to buy this dress I hate and can’t afford because if I don’t impress these girls with my outfit, my job is at risk and/or I will be mocked/bullied/somehow punished professionally or personally.”

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Nobody here - who doesn't know me and didn't experience what I experienced - has the ability or the right to tell me that I've misunderstood my own experiences. They can offer their own experiences or a different perspective from their own point of view, but they simply can't know what they claim to know about me and my life. And to make the claim that they understand my life and experiences better than I do is pretty incredibly demeaning.

Well, that settles it. By saying nobody but you can understand these pressures, we clarify that what you experience isn’t a societal norm or a pressure that’s common to the whole. Therefore, by your own words, the judgment you say you feel is common is a uniquely personal experience, not a common one.

 

[Paidiske]

For the thousandth time, as told by me and several other people, nobody is discounting your experience or saying it didn’t exist.

Telling me that there's a "disconnect" between what happened and my perception of it (as you did in post #219) is exactly that. It's saying that what I think happened isn't what really happened.

I’m sure you felt pressure to fit in, but you’re saying it’s society pressure, peer pressure, unique burdens of being female, etc etc... But asking yourself if clothes will impress a group of women of a particular interest at your job and having people notice that you’re wearing a different height heel than you normally do isn’t a reflection of society’s pressures. It just isn’t.

Of course it is. It's society's pressures as it played out in that context. It's pressure that came about because of other people; what is that if not social pressure?

A common pattern is you seem to internalize a lot and then blame that on external factors, confusing it as pressure by society or an attack, when you’re not validated like you’d like. You’re doing it in your examples and frankly, you’re doing it here. Things like asking “will this impress the fashionistas at work?” is a self-imposed filter born of a unique part of a subset of people interested in fashion and a personal desire to appeal to them. It’s not a societal pressure. A societal pressure is “I have to buy this dress I hate and can’t afford because if I don’t impress these girls with my outfit, my job is at risk and/or I will be mocked/bullied/somehow punished professionally or personally.”

There's a spectrum, and pressure exists at lower levels than just the extreme end.

 

[Paidiske]

Well, that settles it. By saying nobody but you can understand these pressures, we clarify that what you experience isn’t a societal norm or a pressure that’s common to the whole. Therefore, by your own words, the judgment you say you feel is common is a uniquely personal experience, not a common one.

No, I'm saying nobody posting on an internet forum can interpret my experience better than I can. You don't know me, and you weren't there.

Just as I can't interpret your experience, know your motivations, or tell you what you mean better than you can, because being on the other side of the internet I have no special insight into those things, nor can you do that for me.

I'm not saying my pressures are uniquely a personal experience. I still believe they're common to most women. I'm saying you are not in a position to interpret the meaning of one example I chose to share.

 

[DZoolander]

Of course it is. It's society's pressures as it played out in that context. It's pressure that came about because of other people; what is that if not social pressure?

I can't speak for TW - but I would differentiate between the two like this.

When I think about pressure from "society" - it's along the lines of "do I experience it as soon as I walk out the door". Society is "everyone". So when I talk about perceptions people have about "pressure from society" - I envision it being along the lines of "pressure you cannot escape - that is ubiquitous"

Kind of like...when I was in the 7th grade I had a budding interest in computers. Because I thought I was interested in computers, I joined the computer club at my school. Little did I know, it was a competitive club. So, I joined it, and a week later I get called out of class one day to take part in a competition.

I didn't know there was a competition coming up...lol...and when they sat me down to take the exam for the competition and I was faced with things like "interpret the following algorithm" - I had no idea what the heck it was talking about. Let's say I think I was judged pretty harshly that day by the other kids in the computer club for how I pulled down our team's score. lol

There was an expectation in that club that in order to belong, I ought know what an algorithm was, and have the ability to interpret one/find the pattern/etc. I didn't. But once I walked out of that room - did society writ large care that I had no concept of what that meant at 12 years old? Nope.

That's where *I* at least get hung up - when people talk about "society's pressures". To me - when someone talks about "society" - I envision pressures they feel all the time - from all directions - and that cannot be escaped. And to that end (because I'm a very pedantic person with how I use language - because I think clarity helps define problems) - I have issues when people talk about "society".

"Society" expects very few things. Individual groups may or may not expect far more.

At least that's how I look at it.

 

[Poppyseed78]

.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Telling me that there's a "disconnect" between what happened and my perception of it (as you did in post #219) is exactly that. It's saying that what I think happened isn't what really happened.

I said there’s a disconnect in the understanding the difference of pressure from society that forces a gender to dress or groom a certain way vs asking yourself if an outfit will impress a microclimate if people with a specific interest or people remarking in a different shoe height than you normally wear. I didn’t say what happened isn’t really what happened.

Of course it is. It's society's pressures as it played out in that context. It's pressure that came about because of other people; what is that if not social pressure?

The heel thing is you doing something different and it being remarked on. No more or less. Same as if I dyed my hair blue tomorrow. It’s different, people will notice.

You identifying a group of people with an interest, in this case fashionistas, and asking before you buy an outfit of a group of fashionistas at work will like it is you identifying a specific group of people with a specific interest will like your outfit or would fit in with them. It isn’t a demand society is putting on you.

There's a spectrum, and pressure exists at lower levels than just the extreme end.

Of course there’s a spectrum. Nobody says otherwise. But there is stuff that doesn’t fall on the spectrum at all or is self-imposed, not society imposed. Since the discussion is pressures by society and not pressures in microclimates with subsets one wants to impress for whatever reason, it’s important to make a distinction.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

No, I'm saying nobody posting on an internet forum can interpret my experience better than I can. You don't know me, and you weren't there.

Just as I can't interpret your experience, know your motivations, or tell you what you mean better than you can, because being on the other side of the internet I have no special insight into those things, nor can you do that for me.

I'm not saying my pressures are uniquely a personal experience. I still believe they're common to most women. I'm saying you are not in a position to interpret the meaning of one example I chose to share.

You’ve said again and again that nobody can judge your experiences despite the fact you have no problem doing that to others, and in a way that’s demeaning to gender, intelligence, and experiences. You also internalize this discussion in ways that make it easier to understand why you think so much of what goes on around you is based on others perceptions. I think maybe if you sit back and truly see what people are saying, you’d see there’s a whole component of this discussion that people are bringing up that you aren’t seeing, or are at least misunderstanding.

 

[mina]

I don't know what this thread is about anymore. When I answered earlier I was trying to answer the OP which stated: How do beauty/body image expectations impact us? Yesterday I went to a thing and the night before I stayed up late to dye my hair with henna to refresh it b/c I didn't want people to think how faded my hair looked. Plus it was time and I thought my hair looked bad. It didn't matter if I did or didn't but I did so I didn't have to think about it or over think it and I could just focus on what I went to the thing to do. If I didn't have anywhere to go with people that I don't frequently see, I probably would have let it go a few weeks. https://theblog.okcupid.com/your-looks-and-your-inbox-8715c0f1561e

 

[tall73]

Nobody here - who doesn't know me and didn't experience what I experienced - has the ability or the right to tell me that I've misunderstood my own experiences. They can offer their own experiences or a different perspective from their own point of view, but they simply can't know what they claim to know about me and my life.

Certainly we cannot experience all that happened over a period of time in your job, or some of the subtle aspects you are speaking of. And as you mentioned, it was some time ago, so you may not even be able to recall it all at this time either. Please understand the reason I am clarifying on the point is to try to get what you were illustrating.

As you said, when you relate what happened we may well have a different take. Please do not take my questions as saying that your perception was wrong. It may well be perfectly accurate. However, you presented a scenario, then your conclusion, and there seemed to be a few steps missing between a. and z., or at least in my perception of the progression having heard it. It may be that there were not gaps in your thought process at the time, but there is in the relating of it years later. I want to fill in those gaps. Or if they were done by intuition, I would like to know how looking back the intuition made sense to you.

For instance, after clarification you added the detail of the high heels. That does help to understand a specific that could be interpreted multiple ways.


a. they were making a subtle hint to continue to step up in your fashion. Being there and experiencing it, this is how you took it, and depending on the tone, etc. that may well be how it was meant. You are correct in that we were not there to hear all of the context, the tone, etc.

b. It is possible they really do like fashion for its own sake, rather than as a means of ranking themselves in the social order, and liked what you were wearing.

c. It is possible they were trying to be nice and that was a possible connection for them
to relate to you sincerely.

A close associate of a superior told me they liked my tie, and I am about 100 percent sure they just liked the tie. Now if someone who had continually put me down said they liked what my tie out of the blue one day, I would be pretty suspicious of how sincere that was.

What I think I am struggling with is they didn't ever give any indication they were judging your clothes directly that you have related.
There can be back-hand compliments, but it sounds so far from what you have said that they just liked the shoes.

Clearly they liked clothes, clearly they evaluated them in various contexts. However, there seems to be some logical gaps to me between them critiquing clothes in various ways and them finding you inadequate.

Did they critique other co-workers clothes in your presence?

Did they ever socialize with you or just interact on business matters then remain aloof?

 

[tall73]

I can't speak for TW - but I would differentiate between the two like this.

When I think about pressure from "society" - it's along the lines of "do I experience it as soon as I walk out the door". Society is "everyone". So when I talk about perceptions people have about "pressure from society" - I envision it being along the lines of "pressure you cannot escape - that is ubiquitous"

Kind of like...when I was in the 7th grade I had a budding interest in computers. Because I thought I was interested in computers, I joined the computer club at my school. Little did I know, it was a competitive club. So, I joined it, and a week later I get called out of class one day to take part in a competition.

I didn't know there was a competition coming up...lol...and when they sat me down to take the exam for the competition and I was faced with things like "interpret the following algorithm" - I had no idea what the heck it was talking about. Let's say I think I was judged pretty harshly that day by the other kids in the computer club for how I pulled down our team's score. lol

There was an expectation in that club that in order to belong, I ought know what an algorithm was, and have the ability to interpret one/find the pattern/etc. I didn't. But once I walked out of that room - did society writ large care that I had no concept of what that meant at 12 years old? Nope.

That's where *I* at least get hung up - when people talk about "society's pressures". To me - when someone talks about "society" - I envision pressures they feel all the time - from all directions - and that cannot be escaped. And to that end (because I'm a very pedantic person with how I use language - because I think clarity helps define problems) - I have issues when people talk about "society".

"Society" expects very few things. Individual groups may or may not expect far more.

At least that's how I look at it.

That is a very good example of sub-cultures or groups having their own expectations, and a good clarification. I would agree that you would not be expected to know any of that outside of the club. I think that was part of what we were saying when speaking of the being outside of the norm.

Now in the case of wedding attendance, etc. it is a special event, but one that most people would reasonable expect to be a part of at some point, or in some ways is nearly unavoidable without offending folks. So I would draw a different distinction there, though again it is different from every day life.

When you have a voluntary association that brings different pressures that is different than overall societal pressures.

 

[tall73]

There are a lot of interesting viewpoints expressed here. I appreciate how candid some of the responses have been.

Regarding people not actually being as critical of us as we fear - this has actually not been the case, in my experience. I would like to think that people are more concerned with their own lives than judging me, but they honest-to-goodness are judging me. My husband's relatives frequently judge my parenting, appearance, clothing, weight, education, and personality both to my face and behind my back. This is one reason we don't see them very often now.

In-law relationships--I would think just from perception talking to a lot of folks on the subject that the rate is probably higher than society in general. And that is painful. We had some issues with my parents not long ago where I had to take my wife's side (both because she is my wife, and because I didn't think their critique made sense), and talk through things, establish some boundaries and distance for a bit. It hurts more when it is from those who are close, or at least should be. They apparently had been upset about something for a while, but didn't say it, which makes it hard to do much about.

Her in-laws certainly had their difficult moments as well with us (they have now passed away) but most of the time you learned their approach and were able to navigate without much difficulty.

Strangers comment on my appearance in public - all adults. Usually something about me being very short.

I can attest that height will get attention from society at large.

I am sure it is different in many ways, particularly because people might associate short stature with childlikeness as you referenced earlier. I see that with a friend that I know as well, folks treat her like less of an adult at times. She works as a minister of children as well, so there are often children around to compare height. She seems to take it in stride. We sometimes joke too about our height disparity, but I am sure there are times it is not funny to her when it comes from folks she just met.

It is remarkable how often folks will comment on something like height that is out of the norm. Some people, especially strangers, just give a verbal outburst on the topic. Some joke. Some will talk to you normally for about 20 minutes, then look sheepish and say "I have to ask, how tall are you". I suppose that is a curiosity thing, so not a big deal. And I really get more amusement from it anymore. It rarely registers on the annoying scale much for me. In my earlier years that was not always the case. It is hard to stick out in school, etc. And sometimes folks would have the opposite take. I was a young kid but they expected me to act older than I was.

 

[Paidiske]

Zoolander, that's a helpful post, and helps me make sense of some of this.

For me, talking about society or social pressure doesn't have to mean "everyone I encounter all the time." It just has to mean, enough people enough of the time that it has an effect.

Of course there are sub groups and different experiences in different contexts; it's why we dress differently at the office and the beach. But the way I was interpreting society was "other people," basically.

Did they critique other co-workers clothes in your presence?

Constantly.

Did they ever socialize with you or just interact on business matters then remain aloof?

Much more the latter.

 

[tall73]

The thing that affects my self-perception the most was that my first boyfriend severely hurt my self-esteem by comparing me to inappropriate content actresses.

Unfortunately this is also something that is increasing in some segments. Internet access to inappropriate contentography has led to a lot of out of bounds expectations regarding sex and body image in particular.

Now while many may approach it as Zoo has often noted, not even remembering what the person looked like later, there are clearly those who develop very particular standards of appearance and practice as a result.

His abusive nature probably explains why he initiated a relationship with someone that didn't live up to his expectations, as he got something else out of control. But it does certainly suggest that he was probably frustrated that he couldn't meet his expectations because he was not himself someone who would garner attention from perfect looking (sometimes surgically modified) women who are experienced sex workers.

I'm still wounded from that relationship even a decade later. My "inner critic" is his voice. I view myself through his eyes, and pretty much no matter what I do I don't feel good enough, regardless of compliments from others. I know the truth - that I am God's child and I am a worthwhile human being - but the scars run deep. For me it's not that I'm bitter that I feel societal pressure to wear heels or shave my legs. "Beauty" to me is a pandora's box loaded with trauma, heartache, and pain.

Anyway, just my .02 lol.

That is an interesting distinction because you recognize that it was his issue, not societies. However, as you said, that doesn't always make it easier to separate internalized critiques from reality.

 

[tall73]

Zoolander, that's a helpful post, and helps me make sense of some of this.

For me, talking about society or social pressure doesn't have to mean "everyone I encounter all the time." It just has to mean, enough people enough of the time that it has an effect.

Of course there are sub groups and different experiences in different contexts; it's why we dress differently at the office and the beach. But the way I was interpreting society was "other people," basically.

Well that starts to make more sense then. That is why it is helpful to keep figuring out definitions and perspectives.

 

[tall73]

Constantly.

Much more the latter.

That does then sound like your perception was based on how you actually saw them act toward others, which is then logical to extrapolate what they may say about you behind your back. In that case I understand how you connected the dots.

 

[RDKirk]

Nobody here - who doesn't know me and didn't experience what I experienced - has the ability or the right to tell me that I've misunderstood my own experiences. They can offer their own experiences or a different perspective from their own point of view, but they simply can't know what they claim to know about me and my life. And to make the claim that they understand my life and experiences better than I do is pretty incredibly demeaning.

I'll tell you this, Paidiske, after all is said and done, you are a white woman, and you'e been a white woman all your life. Your "social pressure issues" do not amount to a hill of beans compared to what my mother or my wife have faced as black women in America. Not in the slightest.

Take your "unrealistic beauty standards"--you are a thousand percent closer to every predominantly white nation's ideal beauty standard than they have ever been or will every be. By the beauty standards that have been hammered into their heads all their lives, they can never by any means be "beautiful."

Oh, they can be "pretty for a black girl," but that's like being "smart for a moron"--always a back-handed compliment.

You're living your life under a cloud because of a "group" who don't like the way you dress--they live under a cloud because of an entire nation that doesn't like the color of their skin or the shape of their noses and lips.

Unlike my wife and my mother, you were never kept out of a swimming pool or a movie theater or a school because of the way you look. But who is going to pity them for being black?

There are at least billions of women the world who would be happy in your skin.

 

[Paidiske]

I'm quite sure you're right. My issues in the particular social context we're in are relatively small. I don't think I've ever claimed otherwise.

The point I was trying to make - with which you have just agreed - is that there are unrealistic standards, there are social pressures, there are judgements. In the west, those are more keenly felt by people who are not white. (Also people in poverty or experiencing other disadvantages, such as disabilities which are visible).

I'm not saying that I live my life under a cloud because of this. I was trying to illustrate something which I'm claiming shapes the experience of every woman (and to some extent every person), some of us much more than others, which is that this is part of the society in which we live.

 

[RDKirk]

I'm quite sure you're right. My issues in the particular social context we're in are relatively small. I don't think I've ever claimed otherwise.

The point I was trying to make - with which you have just agreed - is that there are unrealistic standards, there are social pressures, there are judgements. In the west, those are more keenly felt by people who are not white. (Also people in poverty or experiencing other disadvantages, such as disabilities which are visible).

I'm not saying that I live my life under a cloud because of this. I was trying to illustrate something which I'm claiming shapes the experience of every woman (and to some extent every person), some of us much more than others, which is that this is part of the society in which we live.

And that's the point others have been making.

The world is tough on us all.

We all have to get over that, particularly if we are supposed to be new creations in Christ.

 

[Paidiske]

And that's the point others have been making.

The world is tough on us all.

We all have to get over that, particularly if we are supposed to be new creations in Christ.

So we're not ever allowed to engage in social or cultural critique, because when something is wrong, we just have to get over it?

I'm a bit more hopeful about the possibility of positive change. Which starts with acknowledging that the problems are real.