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I'd be unsurprised to learn we agree very widely in many things -- such as what you said here, preaching to the choir -- once we get past assumptions about what the other person believes.I think the point I was leading to is there is no difference between how one is saved whether competent or incompetent. We are saved by God's Grace.
A baby or even unborn baby or mentally handicapped adult in most cases cannot comprehend Law and Grace. Does that mean they get a special way of obtaining reconciliation with God? No they are saved just as we are by God's Grace. None of our works save us. God initiates the call to salvation. It's by Grace alone we are saved.
Yet some babies do unfortunately die. I asked why do they if Adam's sin is not imputed to them? They die because the wages of sin is death. We all die whether at conception or a long elderly life. We do because of Adam's disobedience.
Yet....."But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." (Ephesians 2:4-10)
How many do you need? Sin came as the result of, 'many died by the trespass of the one man' (Rom. 5:15), 'judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation' (Rom. 5:16), the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man (Rom. 5:17), 'just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men' (Rom. 5:18), 'through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners' (Rom. 5:19).
I'll just take the first verse there that you feel defends your stance:Sure:
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men,
Now the rest of the passage....I'll just take the first verse there that you feel defends your stance:
Why would you leave out the last three words of that scripture, those being "because all sinned" the words that add so much clarity to the verse? Very telling on how you all are drawing such a conclusion
There is no indication there, that we are guilty of Adams sin, none whatsoever. All that tells me is a precedent was set. The penalty for sin was death for Adam, and that fact spreads to all men so the penalty for the sin of those who came after Adam is also death "because all sinned".
God told Adam that he would surely die if he sinned, just as he did, so now the precedent is set, we all die for our sin. at the very least, that verse strongly indicates that, while it indicates nothing for defense of us being guilty for Adams sin.
Think I'll stick with with what makes good sense to me over the several scriptures that somehow mean what they do you you/others.
This is a lot like when OSAS piles a ton of scripture into their post in order to back their position and none of it says to me/others, what it says to them.
A pile of scripture that lends no help to your stance, doesn't equal a single one that does.
Romans 5:12-21 is brutally clear within context and the very same passage. The chapters leading up to and following support we are condemned in Adam.Think I'll stick with with what makes good sense to me over the several scriptures that somehow mean what they do you you/others.
Yes you would have a valid point if I took you through a magical mystery tour of the Bible to conjure up several verses from different covenants and different contexts. But I did not.This is a lot like when OSAS piles a ton of scripture into their post in order to back their position and none of it says to me/others, what it says to them.
A pile of scripture that lends no help to your stance, doesn't equal a single one that does.
But four in the same chapter saying the same thing are easily dismissed. It's called circular logic, no matter how it's answered just repeat the question.Not many at all, a single clear verse will do nicely.
Don’t think this refers to Judas as he died. But the spirit of antichrist we know has always been at work.@redleghunter
Did you see my question on 2 Thessalonians 2:3? Do you have any thoughts on how (or if) that relates to Judas?
For since by man came death.. For as in Adam all die.. 1 Corinthians 15:21-22. Death comes as the consequence of the guilt of sin. All die in Adam including infants and young children because of his sin. Explain why infants and young children die if they aren’t under the guilt of Adams sin. And not only die but are born with a sin natureI'll just take the first verse there that you feel defends your stance:
Why would you leave out the last three words of that scripture, those being "because all sinned" the words that add so much clarity to the verse? Very telling on how you all are drawing such a conclusion
There is no indication there, that we are guilty of Adams sin, none whatsoever. All that tells me is a precedent was set. The penalty for sin was death for Adam, and that fact spreads to all men so the penalty for the sin of those who came after Adam is also death "because all sinned".
God told Adam that he would surely die if he sinned, just as he did, so now the precedent is set, we all die for our sin. at the very least, that verse strongly indicates that, while it indicates nothing for defense of us being guilty for Adams sin.
Think I'll stick with with what makes good sense to me over the several scriptures that somehow mean what they do you you/others.
This is a lot like when OSAS piles a ton of scripture into their post in order to back their position and none of it says to me/others, what it says to them.
A pile of scripture that lends no help to your stance, doesn't equal a single one that does.
Don’t think this refers to Judas as he died. But the spirit of antichrist we know has always been at work.
But this may be interesting:
Luke 22: NASB
3Then Satan entered Judas Iscariot, who was one of the Twelve.
Romans 5:12-21 is brutally clear within context and the very same passage. The chapters leading up to and following support we are condemned in Adam.
Verse 15: by the transgression of the onethe many died
Verse 16: the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation
Verse 17: by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one
Verse 18: through one transgressionthere resulted condemnation to all men
Yes you would have a valid point if I took you through a magical mystery tour of the Bible to conjure up several verses from different covenants and different contexts. But I did not.
And I would say as an aside...”that’s a wee bit the grass calling the clover green Patrick.”
But four in the same chapter saying the same thing are easily dismissed. It's called circular logic, no matter how it's answered just repeat the question.
or since by man came death.. For as in Adam all die
All die in Adam including infants and young children because of his sin. Explain why infants and young children die if they aren’t under the guilt of Adams sin. And not only die but are born with a sin nature
That doesn't change the meaning of the text.I'm not seeing anything there that changes my mind.
In Adam all sinned, just like in Abraham Levi paid tithes to Melkezidek (Hebrews 7:9). 400 times Adam's name is used synonomously with humanity, the way the Jews are called Israel after their father Jacob.That's only to say, just like Adam, all die, nothing more. "As in" is a term that basically states " just like" so, Just like Adam all die.
That's the only way that can possibly read to me. It far from means we are punished because of one mans sin,
Got Questions.I don't know how many ways Romans 5:12-21 can be read other than Paul repeats himself in upwards echelon making it crystal clear.
The one sin of Adam we all suffer the consequences of that condemnation. It is evidenced that we all die. You do acknowledge above we suffer from the fallen condition. Yes this as well as "all have sinned."
1. Adam, as the head of the human race, caused every person after him to be born into a fallen condition or sinful state. This effect of Adam’s sin is known as original sin and is often referred to as inherited sin. All human beings have inherited a sinful nature through Adam’s original act of disobedience (Romans 5:12–14).
2. In addition to receiving a fallen nature, all people who came after Adam have been credited with the guilt of Adam’s sin (Romans 5:18). That is the meaning of imputed sin. An imputation is an attribution or a crediting of something. Imputed sin is Adam’s guilt attributed to or credited to us. All humans are counted as having sinned in Adam and thus deserving the same punishment for sin as Adam. Imputed sin affects our standing before God (we are guilty, condemned), whereas original sin affects our character (we are morally ruined). Both original and imputed sin make us subject to God’s judgment.
The penalty for sin is death. We are subject to spiritual death, or separation from God in this present life, due to imputed sin: “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath” (Ephesians 2:1–3). If we persist in this state of separation from God, the result is the second death, which is eternal (Revelation 20:11–15).
Physical death is also a penalty for imputed sin: “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12). The guilt of Adam’s sin was directly charged or imputed to the whole human family so that all people are now subject to death (Romans 6:23).
The apostle Paul teaches imputed sin in various passages: “The many died by the trespass of the one man,” “One trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,” “Through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners” (Romans 5:15, 18, 19), and “In Adam all die” (1 Corinthians 15:22).
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IF God makes us alive together with Jesus it means that we wanted to be made alive.The dead who are children of wrath (Ephesians chapter 2) have no desire to be saved. That's all of us...until God makes us alive together with Jesus Christ (same chapter).
WHAT are you asking?Unfortunately even small children die. Why is that?
Paul is addressing a single person in his letter to the Christians in Rome?Yet, the word "you" in Romans 2:4 is in the singular. Look it up on Biblehub.com or some other help tool that shows the grammatical notations. The entire passage is in the singular except where the word is "they", "them" or "sins".
So, to put it bluntly. You're wrong. It is addressing the single person who the goodness of God leads them to repentance.
Here is who will be atoned for and who will not be atoned for:Not everyone will be punished; only those who are atoned for will escape the judgement of God. Yet that does not negate the fact that even those who are atoned for should be condemned. Matter of fact, Christ was condemned in their stead. That's what the atonement was about.
First of all, please quote my entire statement otherwise it sounds differently than how I meant it.So you believe you are righteous enough for God? Is that what you are saying here?
You believe in a wrathful God.So which comes first the chicken or the egg?
Do you follow the law to get to God, or do you follow the law because God got to you?
Yet if He hasn't quickened a person and opened their eyes, they aint ever going to find the strait gate!
How can you know God's love and not believe you are worthy of His wrath? How does that fact escape you? What are you saved from?
Funny post.You raise another good point here. In the context of those being made alive unto God; obviously those dead in sin, don't talk to God. I know the Scripture says that if we hide our sin; God doesn't hear our prayers. Extrapolated from that - He obviously doesn't hear the prayers of anyone who's unrepentant.
This raises an interesting dichotomy. If God obviously sees that their prayers aren't actually to Him; who are they really praying to? I guess logically, the only other option would be Satan (idol worship). And here is where I suppose the rubber meets the road. The unregenerate, when confronted with the truth of God; what ever format that takes - even someone on the Internet quoting to them the Scripture verses they don't want to pay attention to - God is proving to them in their own condemnation their own rebellion. For they won't come to the light because they love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil.
Interestingly, in years past I always thought along the lines of "Oh those poor souls, they just can't see." But it's more profound than that, because their rebellion is actively anti-God. You know I've run into atheists who at least on the surface are honest enough to say: "Well, I don't know because I don't know the Bible that well."
Whereas those who are religious, yet still unredeemed are like trying to heard cats. When they are confronted directly with Bible verses that contradict what they are saying and it's clear to even a "neutral" observer who "won the argument" so to speak. They won't ever admit it - it's like trying to nail down Jello.
At that point they do one of three things:
1. They'll personally attack you.
2. They'll refuse to engage / answer.
3. Or they'll cling tenaciously to their point like a child with their hands over their ears. (La la la - I can't hear you - you're not there.)
I tend to find people who are teachable / willing to learn are rather rare in "Christendom".
2 Thessalonians 2:3 has nothing to do with Judas.@redleghunter
Did you see my question on 2 Thessalonians 2:3? Do you have any thoughts on how (or if) that relates to Judas?
The text does not say that nor implies that.IF God makes us alive together with Jesus it means that we wanted to be made alive.
No, I thought my post explained that. My point is a child who dies is saved just as we are....By God's Grace and nothing we do.Do you believe if a child dies he goes to hell?
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