- Mar 18, 2014
- 38,117
- 34,056
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Unfortunately even small children die. Why is that?Small children are born with the sin nature....
But sin is not accounted to them personally until they come to understand what sin is and when they commit sin.
Romans 2:4 does NOT mean that God is leading someone specific to repentance, in fact, it shows the justice of God in that it's stated in verse 3 that those who do "these things" will be punished.
IOW, not EVERYONE will be punished as you often say that we ALL deserve to go to hell... NO. Romans 2:3 says that those doing these things (greed, envy, murder, etc) as in verse 29-31 are the ones that will be punished.
you often say that we ALL deserve to go to hell... NO.
Do we truly know why God took both men before they died? I don't. Therefore, we should not base a theology on what state those two men are in or if they return and later die. There is too much we don't know.Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he did not see death: "He could not be found, because God had taken him away." For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
2 Kings 2:11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire with horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up into heaven in a whirlwind.
I quoted your statement. Which portion of your statement would you like for me to clear up?Please edit and ask more clearly, since I'm unsure what you mean to ask.
Indeed I don't base a theology on some theories. Though I'm aware of what happens with Elijah later, as recounted to us in the gospels, so that is merely fact to me.Do we truly know why God took both men before they died? I don't. Therefore, we should not base a theology on what state those two men are in or if they return and later die. There is too much we don't know.
This:I quoted your statement. Which portion of your statement would you like for me to clear up?
Jesus says to the 12 in John 6:
Very good catch on the context of all of this. I'd never realized that until you pointed it out in the way that you did!
Now if I'd just been reading that gospel, chronologically through those chapters, I never would have picked out that particular verse and said - "Wow, look you can lose your salvation!"
To come to that conclusion, took someone some real hard twisting of the Scripture!
Wow - just wow!
I also noticed that you picked up that Judas is the "son of perdition". I picked that up in the Scriptures many years ago. I'm still working on how that fits in with certain other things related to the 1st century.
I'd be interested to hear your take on that as related to 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I've studied that through a bit and I know they are connected. I just haven't quite figured out how?
A valid point you probably won't get a straight answer to.
Yes we know this because the dead don't talk (Ephesians 2).
Ok I see now.This:
"How do you account for a small child, baby or adult mental incompetent "having agency, free will, and be able to love by voluntary choice?""
Perhaps if you paraphrase your question I'll be able to understand what you are asking there. You don't mean to simply ask if a child has a human brain with free will, right? I could try instead to guess at what you mean to ask, but that's not likely to be about what you meant to ask I think.
Jesus says to the 12 in John 6:
John 6: NASB
66As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69“We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.” 70Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” 71Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.
Which is pretty interesting. Jesus said he chose the 12. 11 later are told they were chosen to bear fruit and keep it. Judas was chosen to fulfill the Scriptures:
John 17: NASB
9“I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11“I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
The interesting part of Ephesians 2 I highlight below:You raise another good point here. In the context of those being made alive unto God; obviously those dead in sin, don't talk to God. I know the Scripture says that if we hide our sin; God doesn't hear our prayers. Extrapolated from that - He obviously doesn't hear the prayers of anyone who's unrepentant.
I believe God hears all prayers. I think the distinction is this:This raises an interesting dichotomy. If God obviously sees that their prayers aren't actually to Him; who are they really praying to? I guess logically, the only other option would be Satan (idol worship). And here is where I suppose the rubber meets the road. The unregenerate, when confronted with the truth of God; what ever format that takes - even someone on the Internet quoting to them the Scripture verses they don't want to pay attention to - God is proving to them in their own condemnation their own rebellion. For they won't come to the light because they love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil.
And yet Judas operated out of his own choice to do what he did.Wow!
How often do we read the phrase "so that the Scripture would be fulfilled". And the meaning doesn't really sink in!
Then..... think about that. Jesus obviously knew (or at least knew at some point) what was up with Judas; and He faces all this, with a profound security to let the plan unfold. It doesn't seem to me that Jesus is "mad" at Judas for this (although I think in some realm of the justice of God; He must be, because He says on several occasions that He reserves His right to pass judgement. Which ultimately was for the sake of the salvation plan!
Wow - that's deep!
The interesting part of Ephesians 2 I highlight below:
Ephesians 2: NASB
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
The portion with larger text font is the point I think we are both making here. God spiritually 'quickens' us from the spiritually dead state. We don't appeal to Him to quicken us.
For a mentally handicapped adult: various, individual levels. God will judge anyone fairly, taking account of their circumstances. Is that what you are asking about? I'm not sure.Ok I see now.
What free agency, free will and voluntary choice to love or not does a baby or adult who is not mentally competent exercise?
And yet Judas operated out of his own choice to do what he did.
So I do agree, but that doesn't take away the fact that it's those that follow the law that will make it to heaven...those that act upon the words of God and build their house upon THE ROCK.
I don't believe any of the above helps your case.
Verse 13, for example, tells the reader to enter through the strait gate....God does not say to wait until HE does something...the person must ENTER, take an action, and go thru the right gate.
I can honestly say that I know only God's love.
I've never had any fear of Him...except for a holy and respectful fear for God Almightly in that I feel very small compared to Him...but not fear as I think you mean it.
I think the point I was leading to is there is no difference between how one is saved whether competent or incompetent. We are saved by God's Grace.For a mentally handicapped adult: various, individual levels. God will judge anyone fairly, taking account of their circumstances. Is that what you are asking about? I'm not sure.
Does a baby have free will? heh heh. Good question, as few or none remember much earlier than about 3 years old usually. Perhaps a 3 yr old is a better question in a way, because we can sorta answer: I remember voluntarily choosing to go onto the ice with a sense I was vaguely warned not to (or so it seems in memory), and I chose to do so anyway because I could see my parents nearby and that seemed to me to make it safe enough, and I fell through, and they rescued me as I expected. Now, it's hard to know if I added anything to the memory unconsciously. It is correct I felt I was not supposed to go on the ice, or is that instead an added feeling my mind put into the memory retroactively later in time? I don't know. We aren't held to account to an adult level though in sin when we don't yet have the full agency of an adult, most would agree. For instance, when a 5 year old shoots their sibling with a gun, we don't put the 5 yr old on trial for murder or even manslaughter. We know that they didn't fully comprehend their actions as an adult normally would.
Sorry was pressed for time and wanted to look up a few things before responding. I will get back to this.@redleghunter
Did you see my question on 2 Thessalonians 2:3? Do you have any thoughts on how (or if) that relates to Judas?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?