Universalist Denominations

[SackLunch]

At the churches I've attended for extended periods of time (Episcopal, United Church of Canada), I've never heard that anyone is going to hell--nor that no one is. You could be pretty comfortable being a universalist in those particular churches (there is of course a lot of variation in the Episcopal church, while the UCC is pretty uniformly liberal), or a not-quite-a-universalist-necessarily like me, though neither denomination has an official position on universal salvation.

The question I have for you guys is this. My position is that Christianity and Universalism are mutually exclusive. You are saying that's not true, that you ARE Christian, and yet Universalist.

So why the dissention? If you truly believed Christian doctrine, there would be no disagreement with what I am saying, because I'm taking it straight out of the Bible you purportedly believe. But there IS dissention. Why? If you are Christian, why aren't you patting me on the back and saying, "That's right, I'm a Christian and I agree with you 100%?"

Arikereba, I don't know what the churches are teaching these days, but if they are not teaching that people are going to hell, they're not telling you the truth. That's because Jesus made it clear in Scripture that it is only by confessing your sins and accepting Him as your savior that you are saved - he's the only way to Heaven. Those who reject Him are rejecting the very God that made them, and thus will spend an eternity in hell. It's straight-up Christian doctrine. Nothing new.

And one more question for everyone. Why is Christianity not enough for you? Why do you feel you have to mix it with Universalism?

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Have you ever noticed all the different faith icons around here? Why does CF find them neccessary. Why don't Baptists,Catholics, Pentecostals,Lutherans, Methodists, on and on.... just say they're Christian and leave it at that?

This question answers your question.

 

[Arikereba]

So why the dissention? If you truly believed Christian doctrine, there would be no disagreement with what I am saying, because I'm taking it straight out of the Bible you purportedly believe. But there IS dissention. Why?

Since when have Christians ever been able to agree on ... anything?

There are Calivinists, there are Arminians, there are Universalists. There are Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox, Catholics. The entire reason we have the Nicene creed is to have some baseline definition of what, within the vast and varied spectrum of belief, is acceptable as "Christian."

And all those people who dissent with each other are getting their beliefs out of the Bible.

For all that you're going on about people having the free will to make a choice, Calvinism has at least as much Biblical support...

 

[Charlie V]

Ugh...another "Christianity + whatever" type thread!

You cannot mix Christianity with another belief system

I'm not. Christian universalism isn't Christianity mixed with another belief system. It is Christianity.

There are Christians who have different beliefs within that belief system. It isn't another belief system "mixed in."

Of course, there are even beliefs where two of the same denomination--even two ministers or two bishops--disagree on.

Charlie

 

[Charlie V]

Jesus made it clear that it's a DECISION one must make.

Not only do the Universalists disagree, but so do the Presbyterians and Reformeds, and anyone who listens to John Calvin. They believe in predestination.

In that regard, they're closer to right. The Bible is quite clear that it is by GRACE, not by WORKS that we are saved. A DECISION is a WORK!

Charlie

 

[Charlie V]

It's like oil and water. You must choose either Christianity OR Universalism. It cannot be both.

Funny you feel that way.

It's my view that the Christian God is a God of Love. So I might say that you must choose either the false doctrine of hell, which disbelieves in the God of Christianity, or Universalism. You cannot choose both the "eternal hell" doctrine and Christianity.

I might say that. But I won't.

Because I know what a logical fallacy is, and there's a logical fallacy called the "no true scottsman" fallacy. The claim that I "must" choose Christianity or Universalism, when there are clearly Christian Universalists, is fallacious, it's based on a logical fallacy. I won't repeat the logical fallacy by flipping it, but I wanted to point out that it can be done.

Charlie

 

[Charlie V]

Universalists do beleive this is a decision everyone must make. And until they do, the soul remains in hell (at least universalists of my persuasion. Of course, my view of hell is somewhat different than yours.). Christian Universalists beleive Jesus is the only way, but that all will come to God through him (leastways, that's what I beleive). And, just to let you know, there are at least 15 to 20 verses in the Bible that support a universalist interpretation, including I beleive Colossians 1: 15-20. Could someone reference for me?

Try this list of passages:
http://www.tentmaker.org/lists/ReconciliationScriptures.html

I'm not totally convinced it's about a "decision." The way I see it, the truth will become obvious to all. Calling it a decision, from my viewpoint, is like saying that when the sun comes up and is brighter then ever, so bright that it comes right through our eyelids no matter how hard we squint, we make a decision to see the light.

If it is a decision--it's a decision on the part of God. It's not by works we are saved. It's by grace.

We do make decisions to come as quickly as we can to the light. But even the sheep that stray away are found, and the Good Shepard is not willing to let one of the little sheep escape.

Charlie

 

[Charlie V]

I believe that all unbelievers will either go to hell, be annhililated or a mixture of both.

Let me ask you a question, Dave.

Suppose a woman has a son. She loves her son deeply, as any mother would. She raised him from the time he was a child, nursed him, tended his scrapes when he was a toddler and fell, watched him grow, and her heart is filled with love for her son.

The mother is a faithful Christian. But one day her son decided he didn't believe. Science made more sense to him.

Then the believing mother died, and the disbelieving son died.

Is the mother confined to the eternal torment of living in heaven, knowing that she will never see the son she loves, the son she raised, because he is in hell or annihillated?

How can there be a heaven for someone if someone that person loves is not there?

Or does God wipe our memories of those we love. And if so, would you want God to wipe your memories? Would any loving mother say, "Wipe my memories. I want to forget the son I love."

Charlie

 

[LovesOfMyLife]

Jesus made it clear that it's a DECISION one must make. Universalism teaches something totally different - that we are all basically good and that we are all going to heaven.

Where, exactly, did Jesus make that clear?

Christianity teaches that we are all inherently bad, or sinful, and that we need Jesus to cover our sins and give us our assured place alongside Him in Heaven.

I have never once heard that taught....I've never been told that I am inherently bad. I KNOW I'm a sinner, and I KNOW I need Jesus for Salvation, but so does EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THE WORLD.

It's like oil and water. You must choose either Christianity OR Universalism. It cannot be both.

Universalism isn't a Religion. Christianity is. God makes it clear that He wants ALL His children with Him in Paradise....I'm assuming that means even the people you might think "shouldn't" be there....

After all, did Jesus not say to the thieves crucified alongside him "Today you will be with me in Paradise?" Do you think that was unexpected.....that the thief did not follow Jesus or His teachings, and yet here he gets to go to Heaven. Hmm....Maybe Jesus was a Universalist Messiah...

 

[LovesOfMyLife]

Thank you for posting. Your honesty is refreshing.
I do think that a lot of people long to have a dynamic relationship with Christ but can't stomach the intellectual dishonest inherent in the manner Christianity is taught in certain shallow circles. I strongly believe that positive, practical and progressive Christianity is comming full circle. More and more folks are leaving churches, dropping the dogma and doctrine, and are choosing to follow Jesus.

Sounds astonishingly like the First Christians....no organized "Churches," they met in one anothers' homes to uplift and study together.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

I have never once heard that taught....I've never been told that I am inherently bad. I KNOW I'm a sinner, and I KNOW I need Jesus for Salvation, but so does EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THE WORLD.

I think this all stems from a mangled version of the already distorted concept of Original Sin.

 

[Charlie V]

What? I have never heard a Universalist say we are all good.

What I'm about to say has nothing to do with universalism. Those who have pointed out that the claim is a misrepresentation of universalism are correct--it is a misrepresentation of universalism. Universalism refutes eternal hell based on the Love and Grace of God--it does not refute total depravity or original sin based on the value of human beings.

That being said, let me now state my disagreement total depravity and original sin, a disagreement having nothing to do with universalism. On some level, depending on how you define "good," we are all good. We are, after all, God's creations, are we not? Those who claim total depravity, from my eyes, are claiming that God makes junk. I don't believe God makes junk.

The human race is a beautiful and wonderful thing. We are to love our neighbors, love our enemies, says Christ. I think it is necessary, when loving another, to assume that they are something of value, not that they are horrible and disgusting abominations simply because they were born.

It is this sort of thinking that causes people like the 9/11 terrorists and Timothy McVeigh to kill hundreds or thousands of people and have no qualms of conscience. They believed that the people killed were, at best, expendable, at worst, totally depraved.

I don't believe that. I believe that God created the universe, including the people, and it was good.

Of course, it depends on the context. Christ said there is none good but the Lord God, not even himself. I believe we are all good through God and as being part of His creation.

Charlie

 

[LovesOfMyLife]

The question I have for you guys is this. My position is that Christianity and Universalism are mutually exclusive. You are saying that's not true, that you ARE Christian, and yet Universalist.

The question I have for you is : how do you know that Christians and Universalists are mutually exclusive? I can find more argument for the fact that GOD Himself is a Universalist than I can for the fact that He isn't. Christians don't deny existence of God, neither do Universalists. Christians believe Jesus came to save, Universalists believe Jesus came to save everyone. (If I understand correctly.) I see no evidence in those two fundamental beliefs that the two are mutually exclusive, it just seems as though the Universalists are more inclusive.

So why the dissention? If you truly believed Christian doctrine, there would be no disagreement with what I am saying, because I'm taking it straight out of the Bible you purportedly believe. But there IS dissention. Why? If you are Christian, why aren't you patting me on the back and saying, "That's right, I'm a Christian and I agree with you 100%?"

Because no two Christians EVER have agreed on something 100%, for starters. The disagreement happens when you claim to know the heart of God, and claim to know what He would want and what He is doing. That, to me, is where disagreements happen. FAITH is personal, and deep, and nobody on EARTH has the right or the authority to interpret another person's Faith.

Arikereba, I don't know what the churches are teaching these days, but if they are not teaching that people are going to hell, they're not telling you the truth. That's because Jesus made it clear in Scripture that it is only by confessing your sins and accepting Him as your savior that you are saved - he's the only way to Heaven. Those who reject Him are rejecting the very God that made them, and thus will spend an eternity in hell. It's straight-up Christian doctrine. Nothing new.

So what is the difference in Him giving everyone a "second chance" after they die (or just before they die or whenever) to believe in Him? Or does that not align with an elitist view many Fundamentalist Christians hold -- ie that "original" Christians should be the only ones in Heaven, and anyone who isn't saved from day one shouldn't be allowed in?

After all the Bible DOES state that "every knee shall bow, every tongue confess..." and to me "every" means EVERYONE. Tells me quite plainly that eventually, EVERYONE will turn to Christ. Maybe not, though.

And one more question for everyone. Why is Christianity not enough for you? Why do you feel you have to mix it with Universalism?

Christianity is not enough? Christianity is EVERYTHING....Universalists (as I understand it - please someone correct me if I'm wront) do not feel they are "mixing" or "adding" to Christianity. For the Universalist, it is simply OBVIOUS that they are to believe what they believe. So, to answer as best I can : in my own set of beliefs I feel it is the RIGHT THING to believe, therefore I can't be "mixing" anything with Christianity....I am only being a Christian as I feel I have been called to be.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Christianity is not enough? Christianity is EVERYTHING....Universalists (as I understand it - please someone correct me if I'm wront) do not feel they are "mixing" or "adding" to Christianity. For the Universalist, it is simply OBVIOUS that they are to believe what they believe. So, to answer as best I can : in my own set of beliefs I feel it is the RIGHT THING to believe, therefore I can't be "mixing" anything with Christianity....I am only being a Christian as I feel I have been called to be.

Exactly, very obvious.

 

[ottaia]

Back to the OP. I am ELCA Lutheran and I was first introduced to universalism when I was in Seminary. My systematic theology prof was a universalist and introduced us to the topic. Interestingly, the prof was originally Missouri Synod Lutheran before becoming ELCA. Now I don't know if universalism is officially ELCA but I am comfortable with it.

 

[AionOlam]

Christianity is not enough? Christianity is EVERYTHING....Universalists (as I understand it - please someone correct me if I'm wront) do not feel they are "mixing" or "adding" to Christianity. For the Universalist, it is simply OBVIOUS that they are to believe what they believe. So, to answer as best I can : in my own set of beliefs I feel it is the RIGHT THING to believe, therefore I can't be "mixing" anything with Christianity....I am only being a Christian as I feel I have been called to be.

Christianity is EVERYTHING - Universalist is simply OBVIOUS - RIGHT THING to believe...I am only being a Christian as I feel I have been called to be.

 

[Charlie V]

Christianity is EVERYTHING - Universalist is simply OBVIOUS - RIGHT THING to believe...I am only being a Christian as I feel I have been called to be.

I agree.

In fact, I wonder what those arguing against universal salvation intend to accomplish.

The fact is, before the Holy Spirit revealed His truth to me, whereby I became universalist, I cried at night over the doctrine of hell. I was a nervous wreck. I raged at God. I couldn't understand how God could allow anyone to suffer for ALL ETERNITY.

If the Holy Spirit had not revealed His truth to me, I am convinced I would either have become atheist or had eternal contempt for God.

I have heard from atheists and agnostics here that the only way they could ever believe in Christianity is if they believed, as I do, in universalism.

So I wonder--are those who are arguing against universal salvation trying to convince atheists never to convert to Christianity, or trying to deconvert me away from Christianity, or both? Because they're certainly not winning anybody into Christianity!

I can't imagine any non-Christian saying, "OH, he SENDS people to ETERNAL TORMENT.. sounds like a GREAT GUY, I'd LOVE to worship him!!"

Charlie

 

[spinningtutu]

Ironically enough... Paxigoth isn't a universalist...

 

[Charlie V]

Ironically enough... Paxigoth isn't a universalist...

Do you believe in annihillationism, eternal torment, or what?

Why do you refer to yourself in the third person?

How do you reconcile your faith with the many Biblical passages which support universalism? Do you disbelieve in universalism simply by picking and choosing scriptures and not accepting the word of God as infallible?

(Sorry, that last two questions are questions universalists hear the "flip side" of often, so I couldn't resist asking.)

Charlie

 

[corvus_corax]

So why the dissention? If you truly believed Christian doctrine, there would be no disagreement with what I am saying, because I'm taking it straight out of the Bible you purportedly believe. But there IS dissention. Why? If you are Christian, why aren't you patting me on the back and saying, "That's right, I'm a Christian and I agree with you 100%?"

Check this out....
Why the dissention SackLunch? If you truly believed what the bible says, there would be no disagreement with what they are saying, because they are taking it straight out of the Bible you purportedly believe. But there IS dissention. Why? If you are a Christian, why arent you patting them on the back and saying, "That's right, Im a Christian and I agree with you 100%"

Why dont you do that?

Edit- "they" of course, referring to Universalists