Universalism

savedbygrace05 · Mar 29, 2012

non-religious said:
I therefore have to believe that if heaven is real, we all get there.

Jn 3: 16 - 18 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

ebia · Mar 29, 2012

non-religious said:
I have asked others this question before, so if you don't mind, I'll ask you.

How would you enjoy the renewed earth and all its wonders, whilst there are literally billions of people, some maybe even known to you, suffering inextricably in pain for ever?

Beats the hell out of me.

Either God saves all, or the fate of those determined not to be saved must in fact be more merciful than many seem to imagine.

iLogos · Mar 29, 2012

A lot of great thinkers who were also grounded firmly in the Church wondered about this. Beginning with Origen, who never taught or believed in universal salvation, but wondered out loud if there could be a way for God to reconcile every one. For this honesty he was accused of teaching it and gets credited for being the first. All he did was wonder. As St Paul must have wondered too? We know Paul offered his own salvation in trade for all his brethren if it was possible so that they might be saved. I wonder if he too thought about this?

I started a thread/Poll if any would trade their salvation for their children to be saved. It remains largely ignored.

I think it's one of the most noblest things we can wonder about.

savedbygrace05 · Mar 29, 2012

non-religious said:
I have asked others this question before, so if you don't mind, I'll ask you.

How would you enjoy the renewed earth and all its wonders, whilst there are literally billions of people, some maybe even known to you, suffering inextricably in pain for ever?

Gen 18: 25 "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?

We are limited in our understanding of such things, God is not, we have to learn to trust Him as the only One who holds it all in balance!

iLogos · Mar 29, 2012

non-religious said:
I have asked others this question before, so if you don't mind, I'll ask you.

How would you enjoy the renewed earth and all its wonders, whilst there are literally billions of people, some maybe even known to you, suffering inextricably in pain for ever?

If one thinks about people starving in parts of Africa, or children being abused etc... here on earth. We can intervene, we can mobilise politically, economically etc... We still live our lives and have enjoyment, but we know and appreciate what we have and how we can make some kind of difference. When on the new earth, that will not be possible. So will we simply ignore it? Will God remove any trace of it from our consciousness?

If the latter is true, then does that mean we're no longer able to think independently? There are so many questions. I'm not asking you to answer them all btw

Just interested in your thoughts

I think every one has wondered this too.

Imagine being accepted in Heaven and learning your mother, or children did not make it? How joyful would that be?

There is a answer however.

It would be completely unbearable to endure such a experience in our present limited state we are in now. We have very limited capabilities and in this limited state the thought of a loved one suffering or lost is unthinkable.

But when we get to heaven we will see God and know God. We will be transformed to be like God. We won't be stuck in this limited state we are in now, we will be more like God. Able to comprehend and with stand more, relate to more, handle things better. It is difficult for us to grasp this now, we see in part and know in part now, but things will be clearer later

non-religious · Mar 29, 2012

[iLogos]I think every one has wondered this too.

Imagine being accepted in Heaven and learning your mother, or children did not make it? How joyful would that be?

There is a answer however.

It would be completely unbearable to endure such a experience in our present limited state we are in now. We have very limited capabilities and in this limited state the thought of a loved one suffering or lost is unthinkable.

But when we get to heaven we will see God and know God. We will be transformed to be like God. We won't be stuck in this limited state we are in now, we will be more like God. Able to comprehend and with stand more, relate to more, handle things better. It is difficult for us to grasp this now, we see in part and know in part now, but things will be clearer later

I have heard a similar argument.

So one can only assume then, that God will remove any knowledge of those loved ones who didn't make it? So we can enjoy the streets paved with gold and mansions etc... blissfully unaware of those on the other side being tormented day and night? I'm not comfortable with that.

Thanks for responding though

non-religious · Mar 29, 2012

[savedbygrace05]Gen 18: 25 "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?

We are limited in our understanding of such things, God is not, we have to learn to trust Him as the only One who holds it all in balance!

I hear you, but that is equally applicable to the Muslim who trusts in his God to lavish virgins upon him when he has died. Do you see where I am going with this? I respect the fact you can blindly accept such thinking. I'm not so sure I can or at the very least I struggle to comprehend.

Again, thanks for responding

non-religious · Mar 29, 2012

[ebia]Beats the hell out of me.

Either God saves all, or the fate of those determined not to be saved must in fact be more merciful than many seem to imagine.

Agreed. I would really like to think so

Rev Ross · Mar 29, 2012

There is no easy answer to say we can know what heaven is like. The few Biblical descriptions are pretty bound up in imagination that was limited by bronze and iron age folks and then adapted and stretched to fit more modern conventions. Descriptions of jewels and precious metals are simple descriptions of an indescribable beauty. Ever been to Yosemite or some other beautiful place in nature. Magnify it a thousand times and you may still not perceive the beauty.

What is described for us in terms we can understand is that there will be no pain. There will be no death. Not one iota of the Original Curse will remain. We can become the best of friends here, but if I'm called to Jesus' side and you're called to burn with Satan, then I'm more upset about that now on this side of eternity because I know it's a possibility. But in Heaven we'll have no pain so whatever sadness I may have about your demise now will melt away. It will all be seen as the supreme act of Christ's Lordship. The Father had so sacrifice so much to raise his Son so high that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Make it simple. Repent of your former life and let Jesus be the Leader of your life from now on. A pleasant eternity awaits those who would be called the children of God.

savedbygrace05 · Mar 29, 2012

non-religious said:
I hear you, but that is equally applicable to the Muslim who trusts in his God to lavish virgins upon him when he has died. Do you see where I am going with this? I respect the fact you can blindly accept such thinking. I'm not so sure I can or at the very least I struggle to comprehend.

Again, thanks for responding

There is only One Creator as revealed in the Bible, He is manifest in 3 persons, Father, Son and Spirit, please do not confuse Him with any other gods of other religions. True Christianity is not about religion, but about restored relationship.

True faith is not blind, but seeing things from God's perspective as revealed by His Spirit through His Word. Otherwise we will only tie ourselves in knots!!

David Brider · Mar 29, 2012

savedbygrace05 said:
Prompted by another post on another thread, does anyone believe in universalism (that everyone will go to heaven)? If so, why?

No - I'd like to, but my theology is a bit too conservative to really allow that sort of leap of faith. On the other hand, though, I suspect that when we finally get to heaven, we're going to a bit surprised by some of the people we meet there. God's grace is a bit wider than we can fully comprehend...

lismore · Mar 29, 2012

ebia said:
There are passages that seem to point one way, and some that seem to point the other way.

Interesting. Do you have any examples?

ianb321red · Mar 29, 2012

A general question to any Christian.

Do you believe Jesus told the truth or was a liar?
Assuming you believe he told the truth, then you will believe that he told the truth about hell (amongst many other things).

For example:

Matt 5:22
Matt 7:13
Matt 8:12
Matt 10:28
Matt 13:50

There are people (Christians) on this thread hanging on to some sort of belief that all will be saved..

I genuinely can't understand how this can be. This clearly goes against multiple references throughout scripture.

This is the kind of thing I have the biggest problem with - Christians who change, distort and confuse the word of God.
No wonder the church is in such a mess in this country.

This may sound harsh, but this is a forum afterall - and forums are for discussions, debates and opinions..

Can I recommend a book:

Genersis · Mar 29, 2012

ianb321red said:
...
Do you believe Jesus told the truth or was a liar?
Assuming you believe he told the truth, then you will believe that he told the truth about hell (amongst many other things).
...

Not a very nice card to play Ian.

ebia · Mar 29, 2012

lismore said:
Interesting. Do you have any examples?

Has no- one suggested that to you before?

ebia · Mar 29, 2012

ianb321red said:
A general question to any Christian.

Do you believe Jesus told the truth or was a liar?
Assuming you believe he told the truth, then you will believe that he told the truth about hell (amongst many other things).

That's a bit of a leading question when the word "hell" is not part of the language of Jesus' world.

Jesus made it quite clear that it's possible to ultimately reject God's kingdom and that rejecting that kingdom was exactly what those opposing him were doing. He used a variety of metaphors to get that across. Most of those metaphors don't actually sit comfortably with the "traditional" view of hell - branches on a bonfire are quickly burned up, rubbish on the ever smoldering rubbish heap is burned away, chaff is gone in an almost instantaneous whoosh.

The best book on the topic, by far, though - if we are recommending books - is The Great Divorce (CS Lewis)

savedbygrace05 · Mar 29, 2012

ebia said:
That's a bit of a leading question when the word "hell" is not part of the language of Jesus' world.

Jesus made it quite clear that it's possible to ultimately reject God's kingdom and that rejecting that kingdom was exactly what those opposing him were doing. He used a variety of metaphors to get that across. Most of those metaphors don't actually sit comfortably with the "traditional" view of hell - branches on a bonfire are quickly burned up, rubbish on the ever smoldering rubbish heap is burned away, chaff is gone in an almost instantaneous whoosh.

The best book on the topic, by far, though - if we are recommending books - is The Great Divorce (CS Lewis)

Lk 12: 5 "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." (NIV)

ebia · Mar 29, 2012

savedbygrace05 said:
Lk 12: 5 "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." (NIV)

What's your point - "hell" is the NIVs choice of English word to translate (at that point) Gehenna - Jerusalem's ever smoldering rubbish tip.

savedbygrace05 · Mar 29, 2012

ebia said:
What's your point - "hell" is the NIVs choice of English word to translate (at that point) Gehenna - Jerusalem's ever smoldering rubbish tip.

OK, let's try Rev 20;

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyones name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

No matter which way you slice it, Hell is real, and cannot simply be explained away.

ebia · Mar 29, 2012

savedbygrace05 said:
OK, let's try Rev 20;
...
No matter which way you slice it, Hell is real, and cannot simply be explained away.

What is this - throw as many verses as you can at the question and hope one sticks?

Revelation, is of course, a book of symbolism.

Scripture is clear that rejecting God and his kingdom is a real possibility. That's always it's point - which are you going to choose? Not settling the question of limits.

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