Universalism

[Tissue]

And there in lies the problem, you don't believe scripture. It is "incomplete and human" to you. Man may be able to connect with Jesus on higher plains but if anything learned does not fit with scripture it is not of God. If we do not have a foundation in the Word of God then how can you deny anyones teaching? You can't. You fall into the trap of "feel it, believe it", and there is not absolute truth.

Wow. So unless I believe that the Bible is exactly as you say, there is no basis whatsoever for absolute truth?

That's pretty blasphemous, actually (though I'm sure you didn't mean to be). According to many philosophical, theological formulations, God anchors all truth. Not the Bible.

I'm a Wesleyan. We have this sweet thing called a 'quadrilateral'. It is: Scripture, experience, tradition, reason. There are many ways to get to know Jesus and God. One way is the Bible, but it is not exhaustive, nor is it perfect. Another way is through relationship, but we are fallible, and we get things wrong sometimes.

I certainly don't follow a 'feel it, believe it' mindset. To be sure, my feelings do have an influence upon my beliefs and opinions (same as you, if you are human). But I operate, as do most/all, upon logic. I need not affirm that the Bible is exactly as you think it is in order to follow logic.

I am sure God is bigger than the Holy Book He gave us to know Him by, but if you begin by denying the truth of certain passages you have nothing, the book goes out the window.

It isn't a question of whether or not I deny the truth of passages. They are what they are. I do interpret them differently than you do, but that doesn't mean I'm saying they are false (though there are a lot of statements in Scripture which, if taken strictly by their word, are likely false, such as some of the introductory signatures in the epistles).

You cannot have a "body" or a "church" without a solid foundation. God gave us His word, written by eye witnesses and not denyed by the people of the day. You deny there is a real Satan, even though we quote scripture of Jesus telloing about him and his kingdom.

I never said there was no Satan. There absolutely is a Satan. But it is not a person.

I've never heard of a single community that used nothing except the Bible as the sole and encompassing foundation of its existence. Interpretations, certainly. But not the Bible itself.

You build your own Jesus and butcher the scriptures for personal reasons. You allow yourself to be decieved by feelings that are contrary to the Word of God, and then you have the gall to accuse us of keeping Jesus in a small box, reduced. Again, it is you who deny His power as reported to us in His own words. Again, you are in danger of wrath if you deny His word or add or take away from it! Be careful, and "BELIEVE IN" Him.

I live in Christ. We have a relationship. I am not manufacturing him, as if out of spiritual Legos. I am observing things and editing my view of him as necessary. When I see that his love extends to people that mine may not yet, my view of him changes. When I encounter horrible suffering in the world, my view of him changes. When I experience a sublime representation of forgiveness and repentence, my view of him is made more full. It's a process. Unfortunately, I am terribly limited.

 

[Tissue]

So the fact that you determine what's false and deniable in it speaks volumes as to what you accept too. You lack all foundation to base your own beliefs on when you rip it apart to create a bible you prefer.

I'm terribly confused. What is the method for going about the Bible, then? Am I to simply accept it as the Word of God, no matter what I encounter, or what logic reveals?

I have just as much foundation as you do (which is to say, somewhat less than perfect/total).

If it's false in some areas, you can't prove that alot of what you
do accept from it is true either.

You're right. I can't. But then, the Bible is not about 'proof'.

 

[LightSeaker]

Jesus Christ IS GOD - and we believe IN HIM for our

salvation.
He is no "experience", He is a person of the Trinity.

I think this highlights rather nicely why we are all talking past each other.

Some of us ONLY believe in Jesus Christ and those beliefs we hold become our reality. Others of us actually live in the presence of Jesus Christ and those people have Christ as their reality.

Life itself is "experienced". You go to the beach, that's an experience. You walk into the living room, that’s an experience you are aware of. Experiencing life is the reality that we as human beings face. That’s how we were created. Christ, as with all beings, also has a presence about Him. To be aware of and actually live in the presence of Christ is something we experience. At least many of us experience God’s presence that way. It’s becoming clear that many don’t even know what living in the presence of God is about though. That spiritual aspect of knowing God is an unknown to them.

I have to ask, “if” we are only "thinking" about Jesus Christ and "believing" things about Him, isn’t that missing a huge chunk of what it means to have Jesus Christ as one's reality in one's life. But this is where we get spiritual...and that seems to be hard for some to accept and I think that’s why all the denial and why we are talking past each other.

.

 

[timlamb]

How about:
"in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.......and the Word became flesh..."

It is not blaphemous to revere the word of God. God speaks through His word which IS the Holy Bible. Jesus is the word and is IN the Word, beginning to end.

I don't hold up a book, I hold up His WORD, and the only true measure of truth we have. God has revealed nothing in the last two thousand years that is not supported in that Book. He tells us the beginning, how we should behave, and how it will all end. If you believe anything that is not in the book you add to it, and THAT just may be blasphemous.

I hve to go, I'll read and comment on your last post latter this evening.

 

[Tissue]

Whoa now. That verse, from John 1, is clearly referring to Jesus Christ (who became flesh, and was with God).

 

[Stryder06]

If you assume that Genesis 1-4 describes actual, historical events.

It's not about assuming. It's about accepting what the bible says happened.

*shrug*

What you've just described sounds an awful lot like people indulging their inclinations toward sin.

That's because we're sinful. At that time however it wasn't about indulging their sinful inclinations. God would have had to create them sinful, but then God would have been creating them to die, and that goes against His character.

What simply happened was that Adam and Eve disobeyed. Adam was never beguiled or deceived. He simply choose to die with Eve than to live without her. What sinful inclination is that?

 

[LightSeaker]

I don't hold up a book...

I always wonder about that when I hear others say the same.

It's like many don't realize that God's Word is also written with in Life itself. All we need to do is to look up from the book just long enough to take a glance at God's own Creation to see that Jesus Christ (The Word) IS Life itself.

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[Tissue]

It's not about assuming. It's about accepting what the bible says happened.

You can call it what you like. For the sake of your conclusion, the events of Genesis must be taken as historical. For myself, I take them as myth.

That's because we're sinful. At that time however it wasn't about indulging their sinful inclinations. God would have had to create them sinful, but then God would have been creating them to die, and that goes against His character.

Perhaps our unrefined free will includes within it an inclination toward sin.

There have been a few theories of the 'fortunate fall'. It seems pretty reasonable that, if a Fall is possible, and if time is infinite, then a Fall would happen.

What simply happened was that Adam and Eve disobeyed. Adam was never beguiled or deceived. He simply choose to die with Eve than to live without her. What sinful inclination is that?

It was disobedience toward God. He knew full well what he was doing.

 

[Stryder06]

You can call it what you like. For the sake of your conclusion, the events of Genesis must be taken as historical. For myself, I take them as myth.

Was the exodus a myth? Sodom and Gomorrah? Jericho? Daniel and the three Hebrew boys?

Perhaps our unrefined free will includes within it an inclination toward sin.

There have been a few theories of the 'fortunate fall'. It seems pretty reasonable that, if a Fall is possible, and if time is infinite, then a Fall would happen.



It was disobedience toward God. He knew full well what he was doing.

Sin is enmity against God. So essentially you believe God created us to experience hurt and pain. He wanted us to not love Him, that's what you're saying?

 

[Nadiine]

I always wonder about that when I hear others say the same.

It's like many don't realize that God's Word is also written with in Life itself. All we need to do is to look up from the book just long enough to take a glance at God's own Creation to see that Jesus Christ (The Word) IS Life itself.

.

Why do I feel like I'm watching Oprah?


God is also truth - and that won't change for people who
decide to recreate Him in their own images.

Jesus quoted scripture more than anyone else - clearly if it
meant so little, He'd ignore it like so many today seem to
do today

 

[PT Calvinist]

You can call it what you like. For the sake of your conclusion, the events of Genesis must be taken as historical. For myself, I take them as myth.

You do realize that the authors were inspired by God to write this. Moses, when writing "Genesis" wrote what he saw. He saw a formless void earth, how can you see something that's formless? That's simple, what has no form...water.
Now that's just an example. By saying Genesis is a myth you're saying Genesis isn't inspired scripture. if you can't believe that..your faith may not be as great as you think it is. "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."

 

[LightSeaker]

Why do I feel like I'm watching Oprah?

I don't know...why?

God is also truth - and that won't change for people who

decide to recreate Him in their own images.

How is living in the presence of God for ones reality recreating God in ones own image? I don’t get it. Either God IS ones reality, or He’s not.

Jesus quoted scripture more than anyone else - clearly if it

meant so little, He'd ignore it like so many today seem to
do today

Jesus kept pointing towards the Kingdom of God as if it is reachable right now for all and any who actually opened up to it. Why do so many here deny the reality of the living in Kingdom of God, right now, today and even call it Oprahish do to so. It’s like they are happy with a one dimensional relationship with Christ by thinking about and maybe even believing in the possibilities of the Kingdom of God, but not of the actually experience of doing the living in the Kingdom of God. That’s to much like Oprah to them. This is Spiritual content of Jesus Christ stuff.

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[LightSeaker]

. "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."

That's not true for all. My faith comes from Jesus Christ directly.

.

 

[PT Calvinist]

That's not true for all. My faith comes from Jesus Christ directly.

Could you please explain what you mean...it sounds like you are saying that Paul is a liar.
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." - Romans 10:17

 

[LightSeaker]

Could you please explain what you mean...it sounds like you are saying that Paul is a liar.
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." - Romans 10:17

I'm not calling Paul a liar at all. In a nut shell, I'm saying that Jesus Christ is way more than the Bible. He is life itself. Life is to be lived and experienced...otherwise it's not life. Likewise, the Word of God can also be lived and experienced because it IS life itself. And because it is Life, thru life we can also hear the Word of God.

Also please note that when Paul said those words, there was no New Testament as the Word of God. But there was the living presence of Jesus Christ for all to live in.

Jesus Christ is way more than a "belief". There is a real spiritual reach to Him that we can live in and be aware of.

.

 

[PT Calvinist]

belief is synonymous with faith. Which is what we walk by
2 Cor. 5:7 "for we walk by faith not by sight"

Also please note that when Paul said those words, there was no New Testament as the Word of God. But there was the living presence of Jesus Christ for all to live in.

A comon defense used by Jews

Likewise, the Word of God can also be lived and experienced because it IS life itself. And because it is Life, thru life we can also hear the Word of God.

before I even consider accepting this philosophy...can you show it scipturally?
Moreover...God is in us.

 

[Nadiine]

New Ageism

Sounds like "the God Consciousness" stuff.

DOCTRINE

Keeping in mind that the myriads of New Age groups are quite eclectic, drawing from several religious traditions mentioned earlier, the following is a general description of the more prominent unifying themes of the NAM.
God

Even though many New Age adherents describe "God" in personal terms, ultimately, "God" is an impersonal life force, consciousness or energy (M. Ferguson, Aquarian Conspiracy, p. 382; S. Gawain, Living In the Light, pp. 7-8). The cosmology (nature of the world and universe) of the NAM is monistic and pantheistic, which means that everything that exists is of One essence, and that One essence is God. Everything is a different form of that essence (energy, consciousness, power, love, force). The state of God is called by various terms among different New Age groups, i.e., God-consciousness, Universal Love, Self-Realization, the I AM, Higher Self, Brahman, Nirvana, etc

Man

Man is not sinful since his true essence is divine and perfect. The only discontinuity between man and "God" is man's ignorance of his unlimited potential. Man is divine. He creates his own reality. Absolute truth is replaced by relativistic, subjective experience.

who knows

 

[Tissue]

Was the exodus a myth? Sodom and Gomorrah? Jericho? Daniel and the three Hebrew boys?

I'm not a historian. Seems to me that Jericho probably happened, Daniel and the three boys probably happened, Sodom and Gomorrah not so sure, and the Exodus, probably.

I'm not a historian. If the Bible presents something as historical, I often take it as historical.

Sin is enmity against God. So essentially you believe God created us to experience hurt and pain. He wanted us to not love Him, that's what you're saying?

As the argument often goes, 'love is not possible without a free will'. If it is impossible to have a free will without also experiencing hurt and pain, then that is how it would turn out (following the preceding assumption).

 

[Tissue]

You do realize that the authors were inspired by God to write this. Moses, when writing "Genesis" wrote what he saw. He saw a formless void earth, how can you see something that's formless? That's simple, what has no form...water.
Now that's just an example. By saying Genesis is a myth you're saying Genesis isn't inspired scripture. if you can't believe that..your faith may not be as great as you think it is. "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."

We hold two different definitions of 'inspired'.

I don't think Moses got a vision directly from God for Adam and Eve. I think he just wrote down the oral tradition of the Hebrew people (as the Creation account and the flood story are terribly similar to the myths of other cultures).

Lots of things are inspired of God without pertaining to historical events.

 

[PT Calvinist]

We hold two different definitions of 'inspired'.

I don't think Moses got a vision directly from God for Adam and Eve. I think he just wrote down the oral tradition of the Hebrew people (as the Creation account and the flood story are terribly similar to the myths of other cultures).

Lots of things are inspired of God without pertaining to historical events.

Brother..my advice..is that you check out "Genesis" by: Randy Caldwell