Universalism

[2 King]

I have not read through the posts any on this thread except the last two, but if there was no eternal punishmentm Then what would be the Justice for Hitler?

They believe that he was punished for a set time in hell then he went to heaven.

 

[timlamb]

I have not read through the posts any on this thread except the last two, but if there was no eternal punishmentm Then what would be the Justice for Hitler?

Well, either Jesus paid it or Hitler would have to pay it himself, and He can't. So if Hitler didn't ask Jesus for forgivenes, then Justice IS, the Lake of Fire.

But they won't listen

 

[CaDan]

What happened to "Thread splits" when a thread hits 1,000 posts? How come this hasn't been split yet?

Christbot was downsized.

 

[CaDan]

I have not read through the posts any on this thread except the last two, but if there was no eternal punishmentm Then what would be the Justice for Hitler?

Mercy triumphs over judgment.

 

[timlamb]

Mercy triumphs over judgment.

See, they can quote scripture when they want to, but they only quote half of the verse

But still they don't listen

 

[Fixation On God]

But they won't listen

Yeah They ain't listening

 

[timlamb]

Ya, they believe he had magnesium ribbons tied to his legs in there and was covered in petrol and set alight for 10.46354 years until his penance was paid, you missed that bit out

another lie:o

 

[timlamb]

Yeah They ain't listening

Yep, sad but true:o

 

[Nadiine]

Originally Posted by CaDan

Mercy triumphs over judgment
​

See, they can quote scripture when they want to, but they only quote half of the verse

But still they don't listen

Yes, we know the context surrounding the verse -
and it has NOTHING to do w/ how they're using it either.

Also, (AND I QUOTED THESE OTHER VERSES BEFORE AND THEY
WENT IGNORED)
the Bible also says who mercy is NOT shown to specifically -

- Romans 9 shows us Pharaoh wasn't shown mercy at God's own
discretion - He hardended his heart further.

- For those who show no mercy, no mercy is shown. (equivalent
judgment is given as to how we judge)

- And, those who trample the blood of Christ and insult the spirit
of grace are shown no mercy either. (in Hebrews)....

all ignored.

Oh well
(OH, and let's not forget that UNPARDONABLE sin that they say
is pardonable)

 

[CaDan]

See, they can quote scripture when they want to, but they only quote half of the verse

But still they don't listen

Yeah They ain't listening

Yep, sad but true:o

It seems to me there's plenty of "not listening" to go around. George Fox was definitely on to something.

My position, such as it is, has been repeated several times at CF. I think a case can be made either way from the Scriptures. Perhaps we would do best to take Paul's counsel and work out our own salvation in fear and trembling rather than these winding arguments that will not be resolved. They certainly will not be resolved with the resort to the same tired invective flung about for the last few centuries.

 

[CaDan]

Yes, we know the context surrounding the verse -
and it has NOTHING to do w/ how they're using it either.

Also, (AND I QUOTED THESE OTHER VERSES BEFORE AND THEY
WENT IGNORED)
the Bible also says who mercy is NOT shown to specifically -

- Romans 9 shows us Pharaoh wasn't shown mercy at God's own
discretion - He hardended his heart further.

- For those who show no mercy, no mercy is shown. (equivalent
judgment is given as to how we judge)

- And, those who trample the blood of Christ and insult the spirit
of grace are shown no mercy either. (in Hebrews)....

all ignored.

Oh well
(OH, and let's not forget that UNPARDONABLE sin that they say
is pardonable)

Then you take the Calvinist position. There is a decent argument to be made for that position. But take it, at the very least.

 

[Fixation On God]

The first problem with this objection is the idea that God's eternal judgment necessarily must have an end. If it is eternal punishment, then it wouldn't end. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life," (Matt. 25:46). Not all judgments and punishments end. Consider a person who is executed for a capital crime. His punishment is death. In effect, it is a judgment that is eternal. The judgment is completed by the accomplishment of a sentence: execution. The sentence has an eternal duration which will not end and at the same time the judgment has been accomplished. The judgment, in and of itself, is eternal by definition and this does not mean that it is not satisfied or realized. The eternal sentence of death, has been accomplished and is still in effect. Therefore, we can see that a valid punishment with an eternal result can be a reality.

Second, it is not logically necessary that an eternal punishment upon a sinner be an insufficient or non-accomplished judgment. It is just as logical to say that God's infinite justice is properly accomplished with an infinite punishment. After all, an offense of infinite value would require an infinite punishment.

Third, it would be an injustice to God's infinite righteousness and holiness to have the sinner's punishment be terminated. Of course, I am not here speaking of discipline, where the Lord chastises a person and welcomes him back into fellowship. I am speaking here of damnation, that pronouncement upon a sinner who is not covered in the blood of Christ. It follows that if God is infinite and the sinner has offended God, then that is an infinite offense. If judgment upon the sinner regarding his sinfulness were temporal, then it means that a sinner's suffering is sufficient to appease an infinite God. That would be unjust since, Gal. 2:21 says, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." Paul is saying that if we could please God by what we do (suffer), then Christ died needlessly.

Amen?

 

[Rajni]

Also, (AND I QUOTED THESE OTHER VERSES BEFORE AND THEY
WENT IGNORED)

all ignored.

Speaking of which, will you continue to ignore post #961? Either address that post or kindly retract what you said in post #1013. Many thanks in advance.


.

 

[Nadiine]

Then you take the Calvinist position. There is a decent argument to be made for that position. But take it, at the very least.

I don't take any theological position /mold-

The bible says what it says, and it doesn't fully fit in some molds
we try to jam it into.

 

[Rajni]

Why is it that whenever I ask you some questions you consistently fail to even address them?

For about the 10th time now, would it annoy you if all were reconciled?

That question is pointless to ask or answer.

The issue is what does scripture say. Not if I like it or not.

Nadiine, Red's question only needed a "yes" or a "no".
You seem to be dodging. You would be annoyed if all were saved, wouldn't you? Like the prodigal son's righteous brother when their father threw a party upon the former's return?



.

 

[timlamb]

Nadiine, Red's question only needed a "yes" or a "no".
You seem to be dodging. You would be annoyed if all were saved, wouldn't you? Like the prodigal son's righteous brother when their father threw a party upon the former's return?



.

See, this is what they all assume, we don't want everyone saved.

This from a person who calls us haters.

 

[Tissue]

THIS IS AN OUT RIGHT LIE!

You, are not an honest person.

If I am speaking a falsehood, it could be out of ignorance (that is, perhaps I missed your rebuttal). It certainly is not a lie. I have not seen you address the core, philosophical nature of our disagreement (that is, our differing presuppositions). The responses you have made from Scripture have been quite tangled and inadequate.

Your answers were rude and bating anyway, so I ignored them.

Let me put it clearly for you.

I do not see how a loving God can damn individuals to an eternal hell. It is inconsistent.

To exact an infinite punishment for a finite crime is not just.

To enforce eternal punishment instead of temporal rehabilitation is not loving.

There is no example for us to find in parenting. No parent would damn their child eternally. No person operating in love would ever damn a person eternally.

Eternity is infinite. Sin incurred during this lifetime is finite. There is a disconnect.

 

[timlamb]

Speaking of which, will you continue to ignore post #961? Either address that post or kindly retract what you said in post #1013. Many thanks in advance.


.

Holy Cow!! are you the tread book keeper?

OOps, now they'll accuse me of being Hindu, I said Holy Cow!

 

[Tissue]

Holy Cow!! are you the tread book keeper?

OOps, now they'll accuse me of being Hindu, I said Holy Cow!

This is what I mean by 'ignoring points'. Too often, you make a passing joke (which does double duty as a slight against 'the other side' of the discussion) and leave something as, apparently, self-evidently silly.

This post of your's does not constitute a response to post 961. If you don't want to respond to it, then just say so. Be warned, however, that without at least some sort of a response, such a reply may be considered a concession.

 

[timlamb]

It seems to me there's plenty of "not listening" to go around. George Fox was definitely on to something.

My position, such as it is, has been repeated several times at CF. I think a case can be made either way from the Scriptures. Perhaps we would do best to take Paul's counsel and work out our own salvation in fear and trembling rather than these winding arguments that will not be resolved. They certainly will not be resolved with the resort to the same tired invective flung about for the last few centuries.

take Paul's counsel and work out our own salvation in fear and trembling

Uni's only believe this is necessary after you die.