Universalism

[timlamb]

Is disagreement the equivalent to not listening for you? If you don't address any of the counter points then what is there to listen to? This is just one big cop out Tim....

All the evidence results in the same "disagreement", "so you don't think God can save us all" Or "a loving God wouldn't torture people for eternity"

You don't respond, you just say the same things, so I will do the same.

And still they don't listen

 

[2 King]

Atleast this picture isn't funny.

I have to strongly agree. This is the most "Un-biblical" piece of rhetoric that I've ever seen.

Who would want to convert to Universalism when that picture is there. I was close to conforming to Universalism when He had the Panther on.

 

[timlamb]

For about the 10th time now, would it annoy you if all were reconciled?

You said the same thing to me a few days ago. You want someone to say it would be annoying for all to be saved?

There is no point to this question.

 

[Fixation On God]

wow, who knew,


Hey, I'll tell you what, I'll put up a panther avatar for my side
and then you can decide which doctrine is truer.

Welcome to CF ~

where everybody's a Christian if they just say so ​

This is one of the most true statements I've ever seen.

 

[Fixation On God]

Maybe you should suggest an avatar?

Perhaps you were wrong to switch from the earless Panther with an open mouth?

 

[Nadiine]

Why is it that whenever I ask you some questions you consistently fail to even address them?

For about the 10th time now, would it annoy you if all were reconciled?

That question is pointless to ask or answer.

The issue is what does scripture say. Not if I like it or not.
And that seems to be a real source of the Universalist's
reasoning for this doctrine; what they think and feel vs.
what the Bible teaches.

Let me clue you in, I HATE the whole concept of animal sacrifice
in the OT - as an animals rights advocate and animal lover.
Does my personal dislike of animal sacrificing change ANYTHING
about why it was necessary and that it was done?
NO.

So that question is pointless, it's solely focusing on what we shouldn't
base truth on: feeling & emotion or personal opinions.

Can you actually answer my questions regarding the lake of fire and Revelation?


Yes, Gehenna may well have constantly burned day and night but it was not the lake of fire. so... is the lake literal or not?

What parables give you EXACT replications & representations
of heaven?? Read all Jesus' teachings on heaven; which ones
are exactly like the REAL heaven?


They were given a likeness to familiarize themselves with how
horrible it would be - you have to take into consideration the
Law regarding cleanness.
It had alot to do with filth and impurity - not exactly the
literal duration... they got the picture well by picturing a
festering garbage heap full of dead bodies, smoldering 24/7
and NOWHERE anyone would want to be.

Was Christ's sacrifice not propitiation for the sins of the whole world? Or are you responsible for your own salvation and can boast that you made the right choice while all those who suffer your hell deserve their horrendous fate?

I already gave you the analogy of a gift.
A gift offered is NOT a gift received!

If you give me a gift card to sports park to watch an event that
I have no interest in, I'm NOT going to it becuz I don't care about
it.
I didn't go and enjoy the gift. I didn't want it - and I most likely
would of found someone to give it away to.

That card doesn't mean I benefited from the gift any - by my
choice (lack of interest).
Now, give me a bunch of beauty products, a new puppy/kitty,
and watch me grab for it and LOVE IT and appreciate it!

Christ died for sin, but scripture CLEARLY AND LITERALLY
defines that salvation as something one recieves ONLY
thru faith. Not just becuz they breathe air.

We cannot make up doctrine based on a verse that we think
COuLD be taken one way - - - when it's refuted or defined
differently elsewhere.
That isn't being true to the text.

 

[jarrettcpr]

The way it works, is that you choose God.

Sure, he wants all to repent, but will not force it... b/c then there wouldn't be freewill.

At the same time God knows for a fact people will be weeping, gnashing their teeth, tormented, and will scream for ever and ever for all eternity if you don't take the free gift of eternal life. So, God doesn't leave for much options to choose from.

No one truly knows why God will torture, even if it's righteous/just, people for all eternity for the simple fact they didn't accept Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

All I know is I accept that free gift, and hope he doesn't tell me away from me when the time comes.

 

[timlamb]

I want an answer to the question. I often find that people are highly uncomfortable in answering it for some reason. Anyone with love, mercy and compassion would be able to answer "no" immediately IMO.

I don't remember how I answered but Nadiine is condemned by her silence?

Maybe she thought it a redundant question. Every thing you guys say to us insinuates we want everyone who we call sinners to die, or worse yet to live and rot and suffer and be tormented in hell, forever!

 

[Nadiine]

I've never known any debate on any forum focus so much on a posters avatar.....!

(me either! lol)

 

[2 King]

The way it works, is that you choose God.

Sure, he wants all to repent, but will not force it... b/c then there wouldn't be freewill.

At the same time God knows for a fact people will be weeping, gnashing their teeth, tormented, and will scream for ever and ever for all eternity if you don't take the free gift of eternal life. So, God doesn't leave for much options to choose from.

No one truly knows why God will torture, even if it's righteous/just, people for all eternity for the simply fact they didn't accept Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

All I know is I accept that free gift, and hope he doesn't tell me away from me when the time comes.

True words brother....

 

[Nadiine]

I don't remember how I answered but Nadiine is condemned by her silence?

Maybe she thought it a redundant question. Every thing you guys say to us insinuates we want everyone who we call sinners to die in hell!

Well in my own defense (lol), I don't answer everything just
becuz someone asks, I like to pick out what I think is important
or something I have time to answer - -

I don't embed myself in these types of debates anymore like I used
to due to the reasons you list out.
I totally know where you're at with that & stopped getting involved
so heavily.

The thing I find silly is when you don't answer, some try to make
it seem like they "won" the debate & it's becuz you CAN'T
answer them. *rolling eyes*

 

[Tissue]

I conceeded nothing, how arrogant of you to think so. But it wouldn't matter...You do not listen.

What else should I think, Tim? You tell me that you wrote a post with me in mind. I brought up what I consider legitimate concerns with that post. Then, you ignore them, pretending as though you didn't care I replied. That sounds like evasion.

I have to admit, I'm not sorry to see you leave this topic. Very consistently, you have been making claims but paying little attention to the problems pointed out by others in those claims. You also haven't offered much in the way of actual counter-arguments to our positions.

 

[2 King]

What happened to "Thread splits" when a thread hits 1,000 posts? How come this hasn't been split yet?

 

[timlamb]

That question is pointless to ask or answer.

The issue is what does scripture say. Not if I like it or not.
And that seems to be a real source of the Universalist's
reasoning for this doctrine; what they think and feel vs.
what the Bible teaches.

Let me clue you in, I HATE the whole concept of animal sacrifice
in the OT - as an animals rights advocate and animal lover.
Does my personal dislike of animal sacrificing change ANYTHING
about why it was necessary and that it was done?
NO.

So that question is pointless, it's solely focusing on what we shouldn't
base truth on: feeling & emotion or personal opinions.



What parables give you EXACT replications & representations
of heaven?? Read all Jesus' teachings on heaven; which ones
are exactly like the REAL heaven?


They were given a likeness to familiarize themselves with how
horrible it would be - you have to take into consideration the
Law regarding cleanness.
It had alot to do with filth and impurity - not exactly the
literal duration... they got the picture well by picturing a
festering garbage heap full of dead bodies, smoldering 24/7
and NOWHERE anyone would want to be.


I already gave you the analogy of a gift.
A gift offered is NOT a gift received!

If you give me a gift card to sports park to watch an event that
I have no interest in, I'm NOT going to it becuz I don't care about
it.
I didn't go and enjoy the gift. I didn't want it - and I most likely
would of found someone to give it away to.

That card doesn't mean I benefited from the gift any - by my
choice (lack of interest).
Now, give me a bunch of beauty products, a new puppy/kitty,
and watch me grab for it and LOVE IT and appreciate it!

Christ died for sin, but scripture CLEARLY AND LITERALLY
defines that salvation as something one recieves ONLY
thru faith. Not just becuz they breathe air.

We cannot make up doctrine based on a verse that we think
COuLD be taken one way - - - when it's refuted or defined
differently elsewhere.
That isn't being true to the text.

YOU'RE MY HERO

Very well said, I would have shouted because they are saying things over and over....and they still won't listen

 

[timlamb]

What else should I think, Tim? You tell me that you wrote a post with me in mind. I brought up what I consider legitimate concerns with that post. Then, you ignore them, pretending as though you didn't care I replied. That sounds like evasion.

I have to admit, I'm not sorry to see you leave this topic. Very consistently, you have been making claims but paying little attention to the problems pointed out by others in those claims. You also haven't offered much in the way of actual counter-arguments to our positions.[/quote]
THIS IS AN OUT RIGHT LIE!

You, are not an honest person.

Your answers were rude and bating anyway, so I ignored them.

 

[2 King]

ETERNAL punishment CANNOT be true because if God eternally damned someone, it would mean that the punishment would never be complete. Therefore, God is not satisfied, His judgment is not realized, and justice is never accomplished.

The first problem with this objection is the idea that God's eternal judgment necessarily must have an end. If it is eternal punishment, then it wouldn't end. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life," (Matt. 25:46). Not all judgments and punishments end. Consider a person who is executed for a capital crime. His punishment is death. In effect, it is a judgment that is eternal. The judgment is completed by the accomplishment of a sentence: execution. The sentence has an eternal duration which will not end and at the same time the judgment has been accomplished. The judgment, in and of itself, is eternal by definition and this does not mean that it is not satisfied or realized. The eternal sentence of death, has been accomplished and is still in effect. Therefore, we can see that a valid punishment with an eternal result can be a reality.

Second, it is not logically necessary that an eternal punishment upon a sinner be an insufficient or non-accomplished judgment. It is just as logical to say that God's infinite justice is properly accomplished with an infinite punishment. After all, an offense of infinite value would require an infinite punishment.

Third, it would be an injustice to God's infinite righteousness and holiness to have the sinner's punishment be terminated. Of course, I am not here speaking of discipline, where the Lord chastises a person and welcomes him back into fellowship. I am speaking here of damnation, that pronouncement upon a sinner who is not covered in the blood of Christ. It follows that if God is infinite and the sinner has offended God, then that is an infinite offense. If judgment upon the sinner regarding his sinfulness were temporal, then it means that a sinner's suffering is sufficient to appease an infinite God. That would be unjust since, Gal. 2:21 says, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." Paul is saying that if we could please God by what we do (suffer), then Christ died needlessly.

 

[Fixation On God]

The first problem with this objection is the idea that God's eternal judgment necessarily must have an end. If it is eternal punishment, then it wouldn't end. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life," (Matt. 25:46). Not all judgments and punishments end. Consider a person who is executed for a capital crime. His punishment is death. In effect, it is a judgment that is eternal. The judgment is completed by the accomplishment of a sentence: execution. The sentence has an eternal duration which will not end and at the same time the judgment has been accomplished. The judgment, in and of itself, is eternal by definition and this does not mean that it is not satisfied or realized. The eternal sentence of death, has been accomplished and is still in effect. Therefore, we can see that a valid punishment with an eternal result can be a reality.

Second, it is not logically necessary that an eternal punishment upon a sinner be an insufficient or non-accomplished judgment. It is just as logical to say that God's infinite justice is properly accomplished with an infinite punishment. After all, an offense of infinite value would require an infinite punishment.

Third, it would be an injustice to God's infinite righteousness and holiness to have the sinner's punishment be terminated. Of course, I am not here speaking of discipline, where the Lord chastises a person and welcomes him back into fellowship. I am speaking here of damnation, that pronouncement upon a sinner who is not covered in the blood of Christ. It follows that if God is infinite and the sinner has offended God, then that is an infinite offense. If judgment upon the sinner regarding his sinfulness were temporal, then it means that a sinner's suffering is sufficient to appease an infinite God. That would be unjust since, Gal. 2:21 says, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." Paul is saying that if we could please God by what we do (suffer), then Christ died needlessly.

You might want to add that the universalists have stated that though the unrepentant sinners are truly forgiven in Christ, they must be "punished," "purified," "corrected," for a period of time in the after life before they are ready to be admitted into the eternal life of realized forgiveness. This is a very dangerous teaching because it strikes at the very heart of the atonement of Christ. For a person to suffer the judgment of God because of his sin until he is found worthy to be with God is to state that the atonement is insufficient and must be completed through the suffering of the sinner. This is blasphemous and must be avoided at all costs.
It should be plain to see that the universalist position is incorrect.

 

[timlamb]

The first problem with this objection is the idea that God's eternal judgment necessarily must have an end. If it is eternal punishment, then it wouldn't end. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life," (Matt. 25:46). Not all judgments and punishments end. Consider a person who is executed for a capital crime. His punishment is death. In effect, it is a judgment that is eternal. The judgment is completed by the accomplishment of a sentence: execution. The sentence has an eternal duration which will not end and at the same time the judgment has been accomplished. The judgment, in and of itself, is eternal by definition and this does not mean that it is not satisfied or realized. The eternal sentence of death, has been accomplished and is still in effect. Therefore, we can see that a valid punishment with an eternal result can be a reality.

Second, it is not logically necessary that an eternal punishment upon a sinner be an insufficient or non-accomplished judgment. It is just as logical to say that God's infinite justice is properly accomplished with an infinite punishment. After all, an offense of infinite value would require an infinite punishment.

Third, it would be an injustice to God's infinite righteousness and holiness to have the sinner's punishment be terminated. Of course, I am not here speaking of discipline, where the Lord chastises a person and welcomes him back into fellowship. I am speaking here of damnation, that pronouncement upon a sinner who is not covered in the blood of Christ. It follows that if God is infinite and the sinner has offended God, then that is an infinite offense. If judgment upon the sinner regarding his sinfulness were temporal, then it means that a sinner's suffering is sufficient to appease an infinite God. That would be unjust since, Gal. 2:21 says, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." Paul is saying that if we could please God by what we do (suffer), then Christ died needlessly.

Wow, very good post!!!

But they won't listen

 

[WingsOfEagles07]

I have not read through the posts any on this thread except the last two, but if there was no eternal punishmentm Then what would be the Justice for Hitler?

 

[timlamb]

You might want to add that the universalists have stated that though the unrepentant sinners are truly forgiven in Christ, they must be "punished," "purified," "corrected," for a period of time in the after life before they are ready to be admitted into the eternal life of realized forgiveness. This is a very dangerous teaching because it strikes at the very heart of the atonement of Christ. For a person to suffer the judgment of God because of his sin until he is found worthy to be with God is to state that the atonement is insufficient and must be completed through the suffering of the sinner. This is blasphemous and must be avoided at all costs.
It should be plain to see that the universalist position is incorrect.

But they won't listen