Universalism

timlamb · Aug 8, 2009

=Soul Searcher;52596739]So because the word is used twice in the same sentence it must have the same duration? Sorry I do not see it that way any more than I would infer that equal height from the following. "There once was a tall man atop a tall building atop a tall mountian."

This verse needs both to be equal to read right.

btw none of us are righteous, not one so the latter part is kind of moot anyway

So being unrighteous means you can't follow the great commission?

There is however another verse that does do the sort of comparrision that you infer from the verse above but it is often argued to mean something else. That verse being ....
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

We know that there is a rapture, when ever it happens. (1 corinthians 15) Not all die. So in that we can know that the verse means all that die, die from Adams intruduction of sin. So, in Christ, all who live, Live in Christ.

It is clear here that the all in Christ are the same all that is in Adam but this along with all the others verses which indicate UR is rejected by those who promote eternal suffering.

So, because we don't interpret one scripture they way you want you won't interpret the other the way we want? This sounds like a playground arguement.

BTW I do not know any Uni's who do not believe in Jesus so it would be hard for me to convince one of them. I will however respond when I see people attacking our beliefs and spreading fear. We are to love our fellow man. Love casts out fear, it does not promote it.

"Work out your salvation in fear and trembling"
If you haven't seen those who scoff at scripture and look at God as some mystical spirit that embodies trees and flowers; or failed to notice when someone says "this is hell, the next life is heaven", then you are blind. Universalists are not all Christian, but you find a closer brotherhood with the uni's than the Christians.

LightSeaker · Aug 8, 2009

heavensprings said:
You seem to think that we think the doctrine of universal salvation is the whole of the gospel.

Excellent point. There ARE other things to consider.

Almost for all of the 3 years of the ministry of Jesus Christ were teachings in how to bring the Kingdom of God down to earth, today, where it is needed the most. It could be taken that the Kingdom of God was the main reason for His coming. Even in His first public statement Jesus tells us that he came to help the poor and those in need.

As such, for myself, Jesus Christ is not about my Salvation...though, God willing that will happen. For me, it's all about bringing the Kingdom of God down to earth and having God as my reality in life. My salvation is in God's hands. Outside of loving God with my body, mind and soul, there's not much else I can do towards that end. But I can make the Sermon on the Mount a reality in my life.

.

Mankin · Aug 8, 2009

I am also currently studying universalism via tentmaker ministries. It's definitely an intriguing theology and I find it very attractive. However, I definitely need to study it more before I make a definitive decision regarding it.

Anybody got any suggestions for good universalist sites?

preistsplace · Aug 8, 2009

timlamb said:
timlamb said:

This verse needs both to be equal to read right.

Click to expand...

the partialist theology of eternal punishment needs them to be read equally

So being unrighteous means you can't follow the great commission?

Click to expand...

off topic

We know that there is a rapture, when ever it happens. (1 corinthians 15) Not all die. So in that we can know that the verse means all that die, die from Adams intruduction of sin. So, in Christ, all who live, Live in Christ.

Click to expand...

I am not so sure I subscribee to the rature theology but that aside you say that all do not die in adam . You twist the context of the verse

So, because we don't interpret one scripture they way you want you won't interpret the other the way we want? This sounds like a playground arguement.

Click to expand...

I do not have to see things the same way as you, as you do not have to see thjem the same way as me

"Work out your salvation in fear and trembling"
If you haven't seen those who scoff at scripture and look at God as some mystical spirit that embodies trees and flowers; or failed to notice when someone says "this is hell, the next life is heaven", then you are blind. Universalists are not all Christian, but you find a closer brotherhood with the uni's than the Christians.

Click to expand...

actually we are called to love all and not to judge..and we have never insinuated that all universalists are christians.

Soul Searcher · Aug 8, 2009

timlamb said:
This verse needs both to be equal to read right.

in your opinion? I see no reason to think this would be the case and reading the rest of the bible I see reason to think that it is the case at all.

So being unrighteous means you can't follow the great commission?

What does that have to do with the point at hand. The point was that the verse you pointed out says "the righteous" will gain eternal life, the unrighteous are not the righteous. You seem to take this verse to mean believers will live forever in heaven and non believers will suffer forever in the lake of fire. It says neither.

We know that there is a rapture, when ever it happens. (1 corinthians 15) Not all die. So in that we can know that the verse means all that die, die from Adams intruduction of sin. So, in Christ, all who live, Live in Christ.

That is a different twist to it for sure. I guess all our dearly departed are just out of luck if that were true.

So, because we don't interpret one scripture they way you want you won't interpret the other the way we want? This sounds like a playground arguement.

As far as I am concerned there is only one correct way to interpret it, Obovisouly I think I am on the right track or I would be doing it differently.

"Universalists are not all Christian, but you find a closer brotherhood with the uni's than the Christians.

It could be because those who embrace UR have a bit more compassion for thier fellow man and see this trait in one another.

LJSGM · Aug 8, 2009

I think it's a poor argument.

There are variations in lengths of time only if that length of time is not forever, infinite, or everlasting, in those situations there is no variation.

Soul Searcher · Aug 8, 2009

The point is that there is in fact a variation in lenghts of times denoted by said word. It is not forever, infinite nor everlasting. In one case it is about 3 days in other cases several years in others several hundred years but it is not forever. The notion that it must mean forever is a predrawn conclusion that is incorrect.

As I have pointed out a few times already in this very thread [yet to get any kind of response] John wrote that he saw the smoke of thier torment ascending up for ever and ever. Yet we know in this case John did not see anything forever. he saw something for a short while. Should this be taken to mean literally forever? Of course not.

Most Christians believe that they will live forever, the word translated as forever is the same word use to denote eternal punishement and eternal life in the given verse from Matthew, it is assumed that it must literally mean forever in both cases when it does not really mean forever in any case.

Can there ever be a time when there is no more suffering if suffering is eternal?
Can there ever be a time when there is no more death if death is eternal?
Can Jesus rightly be called the savior of the world if only a small part fo the world is actually saved?
If we are called upon to believe that Jesus is our savior must it not first be true?
Is the truth any less true if we do not believe it?

Here are a few more questions for thought.

As we are required to love our enemies, may we not safely infer that God loves His enemies? (Matt. 5:44)
If God loves His enemies, will He punish them more than will be for their good?
Would endless punishment be for the good of any being?
As God loves His friends, if He loves His enemies also, are not all mankind the objects of His love?
If God loves those only who love Him, what better is He than the sinner? (Luke 6:32-33)
As "love thinketh no evil," can God design the ultimate evil of a single soul? (1 Cor. 13:5)
As "love worketh no ill," can God inflict, or cause, or allow to be inflicted, an endless ill? (Rom. 13:10)

LJSGM · Aug 8, 2009

Soul Searcher said:
The point is that there is in fact a variation in lenghts of times denoted by said word. It is not forever, infinite nor everlasting. In one case it is about 3 days in other cases several years in others several hundred years but it is not forever. The notion that it muct mean forever is a predrawn conclusion that is incorrect.

I'm sorry, which verses were you refering to?

Soul Searcher · Aug 8, 2009

There are several, the one which is 3 days is refering to the time Jonah was in the whale, of course you need a Greek translation to see the same word used as is used in the Greek version of the NT. In the KJV you will simply see the word forever. There are many such instances of varied time periods

Soul Searcher · Aug 8, 2009

If we use one of the newer literal translations we will see that the word forever has been removed and replaced with the more accurate variation of age or eon

LJSGM · Aug 8, 2009

Soul Searcher said:
There are several, the one which is 3 days is refering to the time Jonah was in the whale, of course you need a Greek translation to see the same word used as is used in the Greek version of the NT. In the KJV you will simply see the word forever. There are many such instances of varied time periods

17Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

This was the KJV. I'm not seeing the word forever?

Interesting though, he must have been swollowed by a big shark, I think sharks are fish. Whales are not though if I'm correct...

Soul Searcher · Aug 8, 2009

Jon 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me forever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Soul Searcher · Aug 8, 2009

Other uses of the same word which is translated forever in the verse above
Total KJV Occurrences: 438
ever, 269
everlasting, 64
old, 26
perpetual, 22
never, 16
evermore, 15
ancient, 6
world, 4
always, 3
long, 3
alway, 2
any, 1
beginning, 1
continuance, 1
end, 1
eternal, 1
lasting, 1
time, 1
without, 1

Soul Searcher · Aug 8, 2009

LJSGM said:
Interesting though, he must have been swollowed by a big shark, I think sharks are fish. Whales are not though if I'm correct...

that is correct a whale is a mammal not a fish but in the NT we see

Mat 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Apparently one of these people who wrote the story or translated it did not know that a whale is not a fish.

LJSGM · Aug 8, 2009

aiōnios
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

`owlam
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
a) ancient time, long time (of past)
b) (of future)
1) for ever, always
2) continuous existence, perpetual
3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

The hebrew word was a bit more open ended in it's usage I think....

Soul Searcher · Aug 8, 2009

The problem with the definition is that these are based largely on how the word was translated in the bible. There is a certian amount of doctorinal and/or dogmatic influence there which really shows up on some words. this being one of them.

Keep in mind that in the Greek version of the OT it is the word aionios that would be used here.

I could give you some links to better explain the word and why it does not mean forever if you like.

Think about the other questions I posed in that post there is a lot of things that just do not add up if we assume that punsihment is eternal.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 8, 2009

LJSGM said:
aiōnios
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

`owlam
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
a) ancient time, long time (of past)
b) (of future)
1) for ever, always
2) continuous existence, perpetual
3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

The hebrew word was a bit more open ended in it's usage I think....

How would you render that word used in John 5:39?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

John 5:39 "Ye are searching the Writings that ye are seeming in them Life age-during/aiwnion <166> to be having, and those are the ones-testifying about Me".

166. aionios ahee-o'-nee-os from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Reve 14:11 And the smoke of the tormenting of them into ages/<1519> aiwnaV <165> of ages/aiwnwn <165> is ascending and not they are having Rest day and night

Soul Searcher · Aug 8, 2009

btw it is the same Greek word used in the following verses as well

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 8, 2009

Soul Searcher said:
btw it is the same Greek word used in the following verses as well

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Thank you SS...it is indeed

Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version

Young LT) Titus 1:2 upon hope of life age-during/aiwniou <166>, which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages/aiwniwn <166>

Textus Rec.) Titus 1:2 ep elpidi zwhV aiwniou hn ephggeilato o ayeudhV qeoV pro cronwn aiwniwn

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

Strong's Number G166 matches the Greek αἰώνιος (aiōnios), which occurs 71 times in 69 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

LJSGM · Aug 8, 2009

Soul Searcher said:
btw it is the same Greek word used in the following verses as well

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

You mean chronos aiōnios? Probably means since the world began when used together

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