Universalism

Nadiine · Jul 30, 2009

Tissue said:
We hold two different definitions of 'inspired'.

I don't think Moses got a vision directly from God for Adam and Eve. I think he just wrote down the oral tradition of the Hebrew people (as the Creation account and the flood story are terribly similar to the myths of other cultures).

Lots of things are inspired of God without pertaining to historical events.

Yet we're told in Luke 16 that man was responsible to
believe Moses & the prophets for their future salvation -
their words / truth are what God demanded for belief;
otherwise, they'de end up where the Rich man ended
up - separated from God.

So clearly, Jesus is claiming it's mandatory to believe.
He even went back w/ the disciples to show where
He was revealed in the OT scriptures.

Belief in the OT WAS belief in the NT -
the NT was simply manifesting - revealing what the Old
prophecied to come.
Believe that and you trust in Jesus Christ
and HIS BLOOD then covered those who died prior
to His coming

LightSeaker · Jul 30, 2009

PT Calvinist said:
belief Moreover...God is in us.

THIS...I totally and completely agree with. Most though to not realize or even live with that reality.

.

Stryder06 · Jul 30, 2009

Tissue said:
I'm not a historian. Seems to me that Jericho probably happened, Daniel and the three boys probably happened, Sodom and Gomorrah not so sure, and the Exodus, probably.

I'm not a historian. If the Bible presents something as historical, I often take it as historical.

So how is the Genesis account not given as historical? It sets the history of the beginning of our planet.

As the argument often goes, 'love is not possible without a free will'. If it is impossible to have a free will without also experiencing hurt and pain, then that is how it would turn out (following the preceding assumption).

What about the angels and other unfallen beings? Those that have never and will never sin, are they without freewill?

LightSeaker · Jul 30, 2009

Nadiine said:
New Ageism

Sounds like "the God Consciousness" stuff.

In their own middle-eastern lingo of their times and also in the way of their cultures of those ancient times, the Jews of the time of Jesus were pretty much calling the teachings of Jesus New Agesim as well. A man as God?!? who ever heard of such a thing!!!...Why isn't that God Consciousness? Better have Jesus kill for such blasphemy!!!

Call it what you will...Jesus Christ lives and does so free of dogma and theology.

.

timlamb · Jul 30, 2009

Nadiine;52514917]Why do I feel like I'm watching Oprah?

I know what you mean. This has gone so far beyond the Word of God that it is really beyond the sense of discussion. We might as well be on Oprah, no scripture truth here either.

God is also truth - and that won't change for people who
decide to recreate Him in their own images.

Jesus quoted scripture more than anyone else - clearly if it
meant so little, He'd ignore it like so many today seem to
do today

But the jesus they talk to doesn't quote scripture. I wonder how they know it is the word of their god and not gas!

timlamb · Jul 30, 2009

LightSeaker said:
In their own middle-eastern lingo of their times and also in the way of their cultures of those ancient times, the Jews of the time of Jesus were pretty much calling the teachings of Jesus New Agesim as well. A man as God?!? who ever heard of such a thing!!!...Why isn't that God Consciousness? Better have Jesus kill for such blasphemy!!!

Call it what you will...Jesus Christ lives and does so free of dogma and theology.

.

Is that Jesus Wang, of Tibet!

Nadiine · Jul 30, 2009

LightSeaker said:
In their own middle-eastern lingo of their times and also in the way of their cultures of those ancient times, the Jews of the time of Jesus were pretty much calling the teachings of Jesus New Agesim as well. A man as God?!? who ever heard of such a thing!!!...Why isn't that God Consciousness? Better have Jesus kill for such blasphemy!!!

Call it what you will...Jesus Christ lives and does so free of dogma and theology.

.

If Jesus lives without Dogma, why did He quote scripture
after scripture thruout His ministry - and often in refutation
to falsities.

I'd like to know why you don't deny what I quoted outright?

Do you agree with the New Age information I stated about
God and man?
New Agers often claim "God is in us" - becuz He's "all in all".

Your statements sound alot like New Ageism as you deny
scripture.

timlamb · Jul 30, 2009

Nadiine said:
If Jesus lives without Dogma, why did He quote scripture
after scripture thruout His ministry - and often in refutation
to falsities.

I'd like to know why you don't deny what I quoted outright?

Do you agree with the New Age information I stated about
God and man?
New Agers often claim "God is in us" - becuz He's "all in all".

Your statements sound alot like New Ageism as you deny
scripture.

Wow Nadiine, you nailed it. Pantheism, God in everything. A spirit force that pervades all creation. Living by the feeling; the feel good Jesus.

Unscriptural but oh so enticing to those who struggle with religion. This is what makes this anti-religion campain so dangerous. "It's not religion, it's God" bologna. It's religion no matter how you slice it but one is true and recorded and a faithful representation of God and His Word, and the other is a subtile deception, nothing backing it up and everyone is OK, everyone is right, and "all roads lead to God".

Yep, end times prophecy revieled in "a form of godliness".

b.hopeful · Jul 30, 2009

All roads do lead to God and God is in everything...all of creation...every man woman and child. And it's beautiful....you'll see.

Tissue · Jul 30, 2009

Nadiine said:
Yet we're told in Luke 16 that man was responsible to
believe Moses & the prophets for their future salvation -
their words / truth are what God demanded for belief;
otherwise, they'de end up where the Rich man ended
up - separated from God.

Moses and the Prophets refers to the entire tradition of the Hebrew people; it is not too much of a stretch to understand this to essentially imply the entirety of the revelation of God in the history of the Hebrew peoples.

If that is the case, then it simply points to the referred individual: God.

Hentenza · Jul 30, 2009

b.hopeful said:
All roads do lead to God and God is in everything...all of creation...every man woman and child. And it's beautiful....you'll see.

Is God the universe?

Tzaousios · Jul 30, 2009

LightSeaker said:
Call it what you will...Jesus Christ lives and does so free of dogma and theology.

How so? If it was not for dogma, and the many doctors and martyrs of the church who preserved it with help from the Spirit, there would be a proliferation of all sorts of heresy. Christ and his work would be rendered meaningless and he would be just another "great teacher" if it humans were left to pick and choose doctrine without any rebuke.

1 Timothy 6:20-21

20 O Timothy! Guard what was committed to your trust, avoiding the profane and idle babblings and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge 21 by professing it some have strayed concerning the faith.
Grace be with you. Amen.

2 Timothy 3:14-17

14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Tissue · Jul 30, 2009

Stryder06 said:
So how is the Genesis account not given as historical? It sets the history of the beginning of our planet.

It's poetic. It's got a hymnic structure to parts of it. It closely parallels other myths in other cultures. There is no indication that it is meant to be taken as a literal account. The value of the story in no way depends upon the historicity of the events.

What about the angels and other unfallen beings? Those that have never and will never sin, are they without freewill?

Who knows?

Nadiine · Jul 30, 2009

Tissue said:
Moses and the Prophets refers to the entire tradition of the Hebrew people; it is not too much of a stretch to understand this to essentially imply the entirety of the revelation of God in the history of the Hebrew peoples.

If that is the case, then it simply points to the referred individual: God.

I didn't say the entirety of the Revelation of God.
What they WROTE was mandatory for belief.
THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT - is it a lie?
False?
What's written is the truth and mandatory -
so why is the NT (that the OT reveals) false anywhere?

Nadiine · Jul 30, 2009

b.hopeful said:
All roads do lead to God and God is in everything...all of creation...every man woman and child. And it's beautiful....you'll see.

oh dear me.

I think we are seeing new ageism; alive and well.

All roads lead to God's judgment seats -
either as sheep at the bema seat,
or as goats at the great white throne judgment

And the bible spells out the fates of the 2 groups.
Mat 25
32"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

45"Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

b.hopeful · Jul 30, 2009

God is not the universe but the universe is part of God.(pantheism v panentheism)

Is it just me or does this whole thread smack of putting the letter of the law above the spirit of the law?

Hentenza · Jul 30, 2009

b.hopeful said:
God is not the universe but the universe is part of God.(pantheism v panentheism)

Is it just me or does this whole thread smack of putting the letter of the law above the spirit of the law?

Is God pure actuality? Is He immutable?

Tissue · Jul 30, 2009

Nadiine said:
I didn't say the entirety of the Revelation of God.
What they WROTE was mandatory for belief.

That's a load of hooey. There are many who are/were saved who do/did not have access to the Bible. For one, the thief on the cross.

timlamb · Jul 30, 2009

Tissue said:
That's a load of hooey. There are many who are/were saved who do/did not have access to the Bible. For one, the thief on the cross.

Hey mister HOOEY. It is not a matter of how much of scripture they knew, (the thief on the cross being a Jew I bet he knew more than you think), it is a matter of believing what they knew. You can know only John 3:16 and be saved. You can know the bible by memory and understand all prophecy, and if you don't believe John 3:16 you better worry about your salvation.

Nadiine · Jul 30, 2009

Tissue said:
That's a load of hooey. There are many who are/were saved who do/did not have access to the Bible. For one, the thief on the cross.

Go back and read it for yourself!

WHAT WAS WRITTEN BY MOSES AND ALL THE PROPHETS WAS
WHAT WAS TO BE BELIEVED.

27"And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--

28for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
30"But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' 31"But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

The prophets didn't deliver the law, Moses did - the prophets
delivered the rest of God's word and wrote of His works.
AND they predicted the Messiah's first and second coming.
And salvation of God's people.

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