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Tissue

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Which is why forced love is no love at all.

I had a middle school teacher. She was constantly on my case, giving me a hard time, etc, and I hated her. I would have gladly preferred her not to have acted toward me as she did.

Looking back on it, she truly wanted what was best for me, and gave me a hard time because I didn't live up to my potential. Because of her stern-ness, I'm a better person, and I have a certain sort of love for her.

Love is not required for salvation. It comes later.
 
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PT Calvinist

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Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."- John 14:6

He didn't say "Me and Buddha" or "Me and confucious" or "Me and whatever you think is way" He said "I AM The way and no one come except by me"

Jesus's words are ultimate truth.
 
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Tissue

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I'm confused. You're saying God is loving, but, as is made obvious because of the atrocities of the world, he isn't as loving as I think he is? That is, his love is less than infinite?
 
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PT Calvinist

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Universalism fails..observe Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being My priest Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children."

that verse couldn't be more true today. That verse can be easily applied to universalism.
 
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brinny

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Originally Posted by brinny
He is holy. He is not a marshmallow of sentimentality. He loves His children. Jesus the Christ died for such as this. There are those who will never be His children and do not wish to be.

I disagree.

It is written for all to see.
 
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Tissue

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I agree.
 
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Nadiine

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I'm confused. You're saying God is loving, but, as is made obvious because of the atrocities of the world, he isn't as loving as I think he is? That is, his love is less than infinite?
I'm saying that a God of love isn't acting the way you or I
would by allowing horrible things to happen as He does.

I love animals - so much so, that if I were God, I would NEVER
allow an animal to be abused or misused....
I may even not allow them to be killed for food either if I
had my way.

Now, do I apply my type of love onto God to decide that
He has to love like I think love should be displayed?
Or do I let God define love for Himself?

Obviously what He does has purpose. So allowing horrible
things to happen is in full line with who God is - LOVE,
becuz He has a righteous reason for it and will make
good of it later in some way I can't see right now.

We cannot project our ideals of love onto God becuz He
is above us and knows more than we do and Has an ultimate
plan in what He allows.

Knowing this, we can reconcile eternal separation; that in that,
He also has a plan and allows people to go there who reject
His sacrifice for them.
Yes it's harsh, but so is so much else that God allows also.
 
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Tissue

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That's a sort of 'one-size-fits-all' verse, that can be employed by anyone to attack a belief they consider an enemy. It certainly doesn't single Universalism out.
 
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brinny

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That's a sort of 'one-size-fits-all' verse, that can be employed by anyone to attack a belief they consider an enemy. It certainly doesn't single Universalism out.

It applies to anything or anyone that is not of God.
 
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Tissue

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We cannot project our ideals of love onto God becuz He
is above us and knows more than we do and Has an ultimate
plan in what He allows.

That comes very close to rendering the statement 'God is love' meaningless, or at least unknowable.

Knowing this, we can reconcile eternal separation; that in that,
He also has a plan and allows people to go there who reject
His sacrifice for them. Yes it's harsh, but so is so much else that God allows also.

You haven't actually made a defense for your position, in that you haven't shown how it works. You're just saying, 'Both of these things are true, and they are not a contradiction.' I'm saying they are a contradiction.
 
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Tissue

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It applies to anything or anyone that is not of God.

From my stance, eternal punishment is not of God. Thus, I could just as easily utilize that verse against your position. This cancels the verse out for this particular discussion; it is a pointless endeavor, as one size fits all.

Add x to both sides of an equation, and you haven't done anything.
 
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PT Calvinist

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Universalists are guilty of a "Pick-and-choose" theology. I have encountered many universalists who have stated that they adopted universalism because they did not like the idea of eternal damnation. In essence, to do this this is to adopt a theology based on feelings and this is wrong.
 
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Hentenza

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Nadiine

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That's exactly what it's based on at the source.
 
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Hentenza

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b.hopeful

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Love God with all of our heart, soul........and mind. I can't love God and use my mind if God is a god of wrath, anger and vengeance. That is such a contradiction in my heart soul and mind.

Agape is unconditional....a God that only loves those on his team doesn't seem like an unconditional loving God.
 
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Hentenza

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This stems from a misunderstanding of what love actually is. CS Lewis said it very well in "The Great Divorce":

 
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Tissue

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My sympathy toward Universalism is based upon logic: I cannot see how a loving God and an eternal hell can be reconciled. This is, I think, a very common reason for those who sympathize with Universalism. To write this off as 'feelings' is to misrepresent the conviction.
 
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PT Calvinist

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you fail to see anything aside from your emotionalism.
 
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