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Liberated by God's Unconditional Love
exactly He is the Savior of the World, and not soley of the select few that God led into the knowledge of Him.
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exactly He is the Savior of the World, and not soley of the select few that God led into the knowledge of Him.We can circle around it, but it comes down to the desire of folks to see "bad" people "punished."
The problem with this, though, is that none are righteous. None. Zero. Zip.
If Christ does not break the discipline and punish paradigm of tribal religion, then what is the point of this whole exercise?
How does this make sense when the Bible tells us thatexactly He is the Savior of the World, and not soley of the select few that God led into the knowledge of Him.
here we have the confirmation of Dante's circles of hell or something very similar
[FONT="]How does this make sense when the Bible tells us that[/FONT]
[FONT="]God DRAWS US ALL to Himself?[/FONT]
[FONT="]ALL are called to God -[/FONT]
[FONT="]and guess what?[/FONT]
[FONT="]Romans 1:18-20 shows you that CREATION ALONE is proof of[/FONT]
[FONT="]God, and that becuz of creation, no one has any excuse to[/FONT]
[FONT="]reject YHWY.[/FONT]
FAITH IS SALVATION - not dying and seeing the proof-positive
in the afterlife.
[FONT="]He shouldn't have struck down Annanias & Sapphira[/FONT]
[FONT="]or any type of judgment becuz that's "unmerciful"....[/FONT]
His blood has already been shed once for all. (1 Peter 3:18 ). He doesn't have to keep shedding it again and again for each person who believes. He isn't a person's Savior because they believe it, a person believes it because He's their Savior. The store down the street isn't open because I believe it is, I believe it's open because it is. My believing or not believing doesn't matter one whit -- it's open because that's the reality. Reality is what it is regardless of what we choose to think about it. Same with the reality of Christ's sacrifice and it's effects. The effectiveness of it isn't impacted by what we choose to believe about it.[FONT="]God is JUST - He doesn't remove sin from anyone who[/FONT]
[FONT="]does not recieve the sacrifice over the sin - it cannot[/FONT]
[FONT="]be removed without HIS BLOOD.[/FONT]
Yes, and the OT retribution system was "an eye for an eye". By the time Partialism tosses the hell factor into things, it's more like "both eyes, both arms, both legs, a pancreas, a heart, a spleen, a brain, an appendix, a liver, both small and large intestines, and a first-born child for an eye".Reject that sacrifice, and you stand guilty; you died in your
sin and are responsible to pay it yourself.
(go study up on the OT sacrificial system and how it worked)
There's a lot we can only speculate with this. You would have to know the heart of the person supposedly doing the rejecting, and you would also have to know for a fact that the "direct calls from God" were indeed Direct Calls From God.[FONT="]I have always believed that many people will not be horribly [/FONT]
[FONT="]suffering eternally - but that separation from God (which they [/FONT]
[FONT="]chose in this life willingly as they defiantly dismissed direct calls[/FONT]
[FONT="]from God) is the punishment.[/FONT]
Yes, I realize that as well - some believe that it's not all fire and pitchforks across the board for all inhabitants there.[FONT="]Many credible Christian teachers don't believe there is Literal fire[/FONT]
[FONT="]for everyone there.... I do tend to agree with them.[/FONT]
I don't blame you! I feel the same way.[FONT="]Whatever eternal separation involves, I want no part of it becuz[/FONT]
[FONT="]I WANT THE LORD IN MY LIFE, RULING MY LIFE TODAY, AND EVERY DAY.[/FONT]
I'm not going to go into it now, but the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a shaky foundation upon which to base the belief in an eternal hell.[FONT="]Nevermind examples we have in Luke 16 where the rich man[/FONT]
[FONT="]got no mercy - no one even gave him a drop of water there.[/FONT]
another thing Universalists have no way of knowing:
I see lots of people calling their punishment "temporary"...
but, does any Universalist here have ANY idea how long
"temporary" actually is on an eternal scale??
If 1000 years is as 1 day to the Lord.... ????
For all you know, temporary can mean 400 billion years long...
How "loving" and "merciful" is that?
Now people take as long to be punished as Jesus on the cross?This is a good question.
How long did Jesus suffer for the sin of the entire world? He took on all of the sins of everyone who would ever exist and yet He was only down for 3 days.
That's the thing about defining spiritual death as eternal suffering -- if the death that Jesus died in our place were "eternal torment" or "annihilation", Jesus Himself , who, again, died in our place, would still be experiencing one of those two things. As we know, however, He is not, but rather is seated at the right hand of the Father.
.
Isa:53:10: Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11: He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12: Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Hoo boy. I think we have to go back to Christianity 101, LOL!Now people take as long to be punished as Jesus on the cross?
This doctrine just keeps getting better and better
(and elsewhere, 1 day is as 1000 yrs. in God's timing).???
Now let's back up - Jesus didn't commit those sins, WE DID.
God cannot and will not be sentenced to Hell when He
committed no sin, but took on others to ATONE for them.
He was PAYING with blood/life to atone. God is not being
sentenced eternally for what He didn't commit and what He
was purchasing by the sacrifice.
Christ didn't have to pay a 2nd death becuz He did not commit
the sins - HE FULFILLED THE PERFECT LAW OF GOD. Man did
not! Man goes to Gehenna & hell becuz he broke the laws of
God and has no atonement to cover those sins.
Christ PERFECTLY FULFILLED IT, so why would He end up
condemned??? See the difference?
So using a perfect, sinless Jesus as your example for how
corrupted & evil men will be punished is unfounded and I'd
say almost insulting as if man is equal to Jesus in death.
Man cannot remove sin, but according to the above statement, man can stop God from removing it for him. This makes the order of power, from greatest to least, as follows: Sin > Man > God.Man cannot remove sin, only God can. Man pays for His sin when He rejects so great a salvation and refuses to have it removed for him.
Christ, as God, had the perfection and ability and power to defeat the sin.
YES!Man cannot remove sin, but according to the above statement, man can stop God from removing it for him. This makes the order of power, from greatest to least, as follows: Sin > Man > God.
Yikes!
Remember that Jesus didn't do miracles for people who had no faith–-such as the people in His hometown (Matt. 13:58)--
or for those who insisted that He prove Himself to them–-such as the Jewish leaders (Matt. 16:1-4).
When He ministered in His hometown, for instance, people took offense at Him, and Matthew says, "He did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith".
Matthew also reports that Jesus refused the Jewish leaders when they came to Him "and tested Him by asking Him to show them a sign from heaven" (16:1-4)
Yes?! Are you saying you agree with the hypothetical (and very wrong) conclusion that sin is more powerful than God?
YES!
Didn't the people with no faith stop & hinder Jesus from performing
miracles?
Did He not do the miracles because those who had no faith had Super Powers that prevented Him from penetrating their 'force fields' to deliver miracles to them?Remember that Jesus didn't do miracles for people who had no faith-such as the people in His hometown (Matt. 13:58)--
Again, though, it wasn't their lack of faith that held some magical power to it which actively prevented Him from doing the miracles there. He's all-powerful, remember. It's more of a case that He simply decided it would be a waste of time at that particular juncture.When He ministered in His hometown, for instance, people took offense at Him, and Matthew says, "He did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith".
Again, this isn't because He can't answer those prayers due to some invisible force-field preventing Him from doing so. He chooses the timing of when and how prayers will be answered. His hands are not tied by what we do or don't do, or what we think or don't think.Then look at prayers that don't get answered due to doubting
or asking for the wrong motive.... (there's whole studies on why
people aren't granted their requests).
"Bless" being a very subjective term.Then you can look into how God doesn't bless certain people . .
I think you might have it backwards. As I've said several times before, our faith is a gift of God. It would be more accurate to say that God affects how we respond to Him by His actions or inactions within us. He does the hardening and softening of hearts, therefore He is affecting the conduct of the hardened or softened heart. Clay, Potter, Potter Clay.We most certainly affect how God responds to us by our actions and inaction and especially by our FAITH & beliefs.
It was never God's plan say whut?!?(ps. the flaw in your formula here is that you are not taking
into account that it was never God's PLAN to remove sin from
the unrepentan/rebellious in the first place).
No, that's what YOU"RE concluding, it's not what I said.Yes?! Are you saying you agree with the hypothetical (and very wrong) conclusion that sin is more powerful than God?
? K,No, actually.
Did He not do the miracles because those who had no faith had Super Powers that prevented Him from penetrating their 'force fields' to deliver miracles to them?No. This isn't a case where their lack of faith had some inherent strength to it that Jesus was unable to overcome. He simply chose not to perform miracles on them.
??Again, though, it wasn't their lack of faith that held some magical power to it which actively prevented Him from doing the miracles there. He's all-powerful, remember.
Really? Where does it say that?It's more of a case that He simply decided it would be a waste of time at that particular juncture.
You must not have read my post too closely.Again, this isn't because He can't answer those prayers due to some invisible force-field preventing Him from doing so. He chooses the timing of when and how prayers will be answered. His hands are not tied by what we do or don't do, or what we think or don't think.
Semantics noted, it's still a fact."Bless" being a very subjective term.
People's faith gets placed into different things.I think you might have it backwards. As I've said several times before, our faith is a gift of God. It would be more accurate to say that God affects how we respond to Him by His actions or inactions within us. He does the hardening and softening of hearts, therefore He is affecting the conduct of the hardened or softened heart. Clay, Potter, Potter Clay.
Hebrews 10:27-29It was never God's plan say whut?!?
Romans 5:8: But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
John 1:29: "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"
No, that's what YOU"RE concluding, it's not what I said.
The formulation you just proclaimed an emphatic "YES!" to not moments before. Alright, now it seems you are now arguing with yourself. To further solidify my formulation, you had even presented the situation about people with no faith "stopping and hindering Jesus from performing miracles". Now you're basically arguing that this wouldn't be the case. What, exactly, is your stance, Nadiine?If that's how you want to play that, then I can say
"God wills that we not sin - we sin - therefore,
man is more powerful than God".
Right?
Wrong.
Your formulation is flawed.
I'm sorry, but I think this is unscriptural. And no, typing it all-caps doesn't make it any truer.IT WAS NEVER GOD'S PLAN TO REDEEM THE REBELLIOUS
WHO REFUSE HIS GRACE. (trample on His grace)
and who refuse to repent.
That's your error here. it is that it's God's CHOICE
to let people stay in their sin or love Him and submit.
He will honor our wishes to accept or reject.
In post #1097 where you said,When did I say anyone overpowered Him?
Sure! He could do anything He wanted to. He's God. However, He has already established what His goals are, and they do not include "not removing sin due to their lack of faith". One thing you seem to keep overlooking is that faith is a gift of God."Lack of faith" is precisely the condition He went through all the trouble He did to remedy. You are basically saying that He either can't or won't do what He most certainly can and most certainly will do. Which do I believe -- you, or Him?So it's fitting in your formulation earlier that if God
didn't do something due to man's actions/inaction/
belief/lack of belief, then God can just as easily
not remove sin due to their lack of faith.
Again, being born again is something that is done to us. We don't birth ourselves. Did you ever wonder why Jesus used the metaphor of being born if He was trying to convey that there was something we had to contribute to the soteriological process? Does a baby have to "accept" their birth before it can happen?(since it's FAITH that determines salvation/conversion,
and one MUST be born again to see the kingdom of God).
Amen. He can … and He will.God can make His own
decisions, plans and will without any outside forces affecting Him or His power.
ROFL! I think that little lecture is meant for you, dear, and deep down I think you already realize that. You are of the camp that says He can't or won't do what He said He would do. You even said that the faithless can actually "stop and hinder" Him from doing what He wants. Taking that into consideration, who is it, again, who has Him in a little box?Until you see that God has a will that is contrary to
your will, you may not understand things.
God doesn't sit inside your little box - amazingly
in your posts you seem to focus on God not being
limited by man, but yet that's exactly what you do
to Him by your own theology & opinions;
stick Him in a tiny box of your understanding, never
to be let out.
Does the fact that He's God incarnate help?Really? Where does it say that?
So there! LOL!It wouldn't matter tho, my reply is a fact and it refutes
your earlier post.
Yes, it's clear that you find the sickness as being far too big for the cure. Your words proclaim that you give sin's power far too much credit in contrast to the credit you give God.And God can just as easily see unrepented sin, know
that they rejected their own remedy for removing that
sin, and then decide they cannot be let into His
kingdom or else the sin that remains in them will
contaminate the entire kingdom and it won't be
free of sin eternally.
The faith we need in regards to salvation is given to us by God. Up to that point, Pagans, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, unbelievers in general put their own faith in their respective belief systems. Faith in God is faith from God. Due to our fallen nature, faith in God is the one faith we don't muster up ourselves. It is a gift of God. Faith in anything else merely comes with our fallen human nature.People's faith gets placed into different things.
God can give us faith, but who's faith is the Atheist
& Agnostic placed in?
YHWY?
Who's faith is the Pagan placed in? God?
Who's faith is the Muslim placed in? God?
The faith that comes from God isn't going to be devoid of eternal value. The popular term "saving faith" is redundant. If it's faith from God, it's saving faith -- He's not going to deal out counterfeit faith just to confuse people.Read Romans 1
many SUPPRESS THE TRUTH they know to believe the
lie instead; whereby, God turns them over to their
chosen depravity. Go read it: Rom 1:18-32.
Then read the parable of soils - there are 4 types of
soil, yet 3 of them never produce genuine conversion.
Only 1 does. (ie. your born again believer).
Sure, God grants a MEASURE of faith - it does not mean
that faith is placed in Him or that it's Saving faith.
(atheists have faith - that God doesn't exist).
Yes, I've noticed; you do it quite well!I can cherry pick too, but it won't be truth.
These verses don't disprove that all will be saved.I'll just leave you with these 2 passages of the long list of
others that disprove all are saved:
(to the saints:
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11Such were some of you; but you were washed...
Gal. 5
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
It's more of a case that He simply decided it would be a waste of time at that particular juncture.
No, not in the least - that's a wild speculation you made
No, not in the least - that's a wild speculation you made as if it's fact.... got any evidence that each verse I gave
says that's why Jesus didn't do miracles?
To which I said (my response below presented in context),When He ministered in His hometown, for instance, people took offense at Him, and Matthew says, "He did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith".
Again, though, it wasn't their lack of faith that held some magical power to it which actively prevented Him from doing the miracles there. He's all-powerful, remember. It's more of a case that He simply decided it would be a waste of time at that particular juncture.
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