Universalism

[preistsplace]

We can circle around it, but it comes down to the desire of folks to see "bad" people "punished."

The problem with this, though, is that none are righteous. None. Zero. Zip.

If Christ does not break the discipline and punish paradigm of tribal religion, then what is the point of this whole exercise?

exactly He is the Savior of the World, and not soley of the select few that God led into the knowledge of Him.

 

[Nadiine]

exactly He is the Savior of the World, and not soley of the select few that God led into the knowledge of Him.

How does this make sense when the Bible tells us that
God DRAWS US ALL to Himself?

ALL are called to God -
and guess what?
Romans 1:18-20 shows you that CREATION ALONE is proof of
God, and that becuz of creation, no one has any excuse to
reject YHWY.

To add to it, Romans 2 shows us that our God-given consciences
(knowing right from wrong) lead us to obedience to God just
in what we know.

So combining those, along with direct revelation of God thru
other means (witnessing, scripture and even special revelations
God sends us personally to draw us to Him),
THERE IS NO EXCUSE to reject Jesus Christ.

This isn't some 'select few' God chooses,
read Matt. 7
The Narrow and Wide Gates
13"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it

We're told to ENTER thru a certain gate - I don't see that that's
God pushing us into the gate to destruction by 'electing' a
select few & herding the rest to their destruction.

We're told that if we HONESTLY SEEK, we will find.
The truth is, people are not seeking or pursuing God when He reveals Himself to them. That's not God's doing, it's people's doing.

All these excuses don't change eternal separation just becuz
you don't like the numbers.
Hey, I dislike the lottery odds too, it doesn't make the lottery
false or keep people from buying tickets.

We have a responsibility to glorify God and repent and recieve
God's gift of salvation via His grace.
Rejecting that results in eternal separation; the separation from
God that people clearly wanted during their lifetime here.

FAITH IS SALVATION - not dying and seeing the proof-positive
in the afterlife.
NOW is the time for salvation, not after death when we die
IN OUR SINS, and there is no atoning blood covering our sin.
Death is the cutoff, we cannot leave this earth without
His atonement and see eternal life.

 

[Nadiine]

here we have the confirmation of Dante's circles of hell or something very similar

I'm not sure why there's this insistance of mercy having to mean
that the guilty stop being guilty just becuz God has mercy.
& That would mean that God shouldn't have judged ANYONE in
the Bible - He shouldn't have struck down Annanias & Sapphira
or any type of judgment becuz that's "unmerciful"....

We even know this (of mercy) from our secular court systems.
When someone is found guilty (which the lost ARE), a judge can
take their circumstances into consideration and give
a very LIGHT sentence! I've seen it.

And I've always proposed that's most likely what God
will do at judgment when works are weighed out.

God is JUST - He doesn't remove sin from anyone who
does not recieve the sacrifice over the sin - it cannot
be removed without HIS BLOOD.
Reject that sacrifice, and you stand guilty; you died in your
sin and are responsible to pay it yourself.

(go study up on the OT sacrificial system and how it worked)

2 Corinthians 5:9-11



9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences.


God is JUST. He will weigh all deeds done - and He will justly
reward the Believer for their service if it was worthy work, (ie motive)
and He will justly weigh even the GOOD deeds by the lost!

I have always believed that many people will not be horribly
suffering eternally - but that separation from God (which they
chose in this life willingly as they defiantly dismissed direct calls
from God) is the punishment.
Many credible Christian teachers don't believe there is Literal fire
for everyone there.... I do tend to agree with them.

Whatever eternal separation involves, I want no part of it becuz
I WANT THE LORD IN MY LIFE, RULING MY LIFE TODAY, AND EVERY DAY.

But any way you want to paint this, I quoted you the direct
scriptures that refute this narrow & rigid definition of "mercy" -
you can accept that God doesn't display mercy to all, or
you can reject the scriptures that teach this in at least 4
different areas (that I know of).
Nevermind examples we have in Luke 16 where the rich man
got no mercy - no one even gave him a drop of water there.

 

[Nadiine]

another thing Universalists have no way of knowing:

I see lots of people calling their punishment "temporary"...
but, does any Universalist here have ANY idea how long
"temporary" actually is on an eternal scale??

If 1000 years is as 1 day to the Lord.... ????

For all you know, temporary can mean 400 billion years long...
How "loving" and "merciful" is that? :o

And again, the bottom line principle here is this: you still have
a God of fear & threat even in Universalism.
Becuz if God is using severe punishment until people repent
after they've died, you STILL have them suffering until they
submit to God.
OR they submit and STILL have to pay out their sentence for
those sins they refused to get rid of thru Christ.

Any way this is sliced & diced, there are problems & issues -
Universalism doesn't solve everything as if this doctrine clears
up all the trouble of the afterlife and God's judgment.

And again, and MOST troubling is the complete lack of the
doctrine appearing where it SHOULD appear, at the end of
Revelation in the chronological order of the time of the end
where the format is all laid out in detail.
Not one mention of the lost appearing before God & actually
REPENTING of sin -- not one mention of temporary punishment
or them getting released at any time.

The only one we see released is SATAN for another run at
destroying whatever he can... when and where did the lost
escape Gehenna after being put there?

 

[Rajni]

[FONT=&quot]How does this make sense when the Bible tells us that[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God DRAWS US ALL to Himself?[/FONT]

That's what preistsplace was saying. He is the Savior of the World and not just some select few.

[FONT=&quot]ALL are called to God -[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]and guess what?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Romans 1:18-20 shows you that CREATION ALONE is proof of[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God, and that becuz of creation, no one has any excuse to[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]reject YHWY.[/FONT]

Very true.

FAITH IS SALVATION - not dying and seeing the proof-positive
in the afterlife.

I had asked you this previously in post #464 and don't recall ever getting a response:

If the rules change after one dies and actually sees God, why should we assume that faith in an unseen God would still be required for their salvation at that point?



.

 

[Rajni]

[FONT=&quot]He shouldn't have struck down Annanias & Sapphira[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]or any type of judgment becuz that's "unmerciful"....[/FONT]

Depends. If He struck them down repeatedly forever, that would be a bit over the top, yes.

[FONT=&quot]God is JUST - He doesn't remove sin from anyone who[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]does not recieve the sacrifice over the sin - it cannot[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]be removed without HIS BLOOD.[/FONT]

His blood has already been shed once for all. (1 Peter 3:18 ). He doesn't have to keep shedding it again and again for each person who believes. He isn't a person's Savior because they believe it, a person believes it because He's their Savior. The store down the street isn't open because I believe it is, I believe it's open because it is. My believing or not believing doesn't matter one whit -- it's open because that's the reality. Reality is what it is regardless of what we choose to think about it. Same with the reality of Christ's sacrifice and it's effects. The effectiveness of it isn't impacted by what we choose to believe about it.

Reject that sacrifice, and you stand guilty; you died in your
sin and are responsible to pay it yourself.
(go study up on the OT sacrificial system and how it worked)

Yes, and the OT retribution system was "an eye for an eye". By the time Partialism tosses the hell factor into things, it's more like "both eyes, both arms, both legs, a pancreas, a heart, a spleen, a brain, an appendix, a liver, both small and large intestines, and a first-born child … for an eye".

[FONT=&quot]I have always believed that many people will not be horribly [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]suffering eternally - but that separation from God (which they [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]chose in this life willingly as they defiantly dismissed direct calls[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]from God) is the punishment.[/FONT]

There's a lot we can only speculate with this. You would have to know the heart of the person supposedly doing the rejecting, and you would also have to know for a fact that the "direct calls from God" were indeed Direct Calls From God.

Many of the rejections you witness are not necessarily rejections of God, but of fallible human mis-representations of God and what He's all about. Many of them are simply rejecting Christianity, and not necessarily God (and yes, Virginia, there is a difference … don't let me even get started on that subject, LOL!)

[FONT=&quot]Many credible Christian teachers don't believe there is Literal fire[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]for everyone there.... I do tend to agree with them.[/FONT]

Yes, I realize that as well - some believe that it's not all fire and pitchforks across the board for all inhabitants there.

[FONT=&quot]Whatever eternal separation involves, I want no part of it becuz[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I WANT THE LORD IN MY LIFE, RULING MY LIFE TODAY, AND EVERY DAY.[/FONT]

I don't blame you! I feel the same way.

[FONT=&quot]Nevermind examples we have in Luke 16 where the rich man[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]got no mercy - no one even gave him a drop of water there.[/FONT]

I'm not going to go into it now, but the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a shaky foundation upon which to base the belief in an eternal hell.



.

 

[Rajni]

another thing Universalists have no way of knowing:

I see lots of people calling their punishment "temporary"...
but, does any Universalist here have ANY idea how long
"temporary" actually is on an eternal scale??

If 1000 years is as 1 day to the Lord.... ????

For all you know, temporary can mean 400 billion years long...
How "loving" and "merciful" is that?

This is a good question.

How long did Jesus suffer for the sin of the entire world? He took on all of the sins of everyone who would ever exist and yet He was only down for 3 days.

That's the thing about defining spiritual death as eternal suffering -- if the death that Jesus died in our place were "eternal torment" or "annihilation", Jesus Himself , who, again, died in our place, would still be experiencing one of those two things. As we know, however, He is not, but rather is seated at the right hand of the Father.


.

 

[2 King]

Do you judge God?

 

[Nadiine]

This is a good question.

How long did Jesus suffer for the sin of the entire world? He took on all of the sins of everyone who would ever exist and yet He was only down for 3 days.

That's the thing about defining spiritual death as eternal suffering -- if the death that Jesus died in our place were "eternal torment" or "annihilation", Jesus Himself , who, again, died in our place, would still be experiencing one of those two things. As we know, however, He is not, but rather is seated at the right hand of the Father.


.

Now people take as long to be punished as Jesus on the cross?

This doctrine just keeps getting better and better
(and elsewhere, 1 day is as 1000 yrs. in God's timing).???

Now let's back up - Jesus didn't commit those sins, WE DID.
God cannot and will not be sentenced to Hell when He
committed no sin, but took on others to ATONE for them.

He was PAYING with blood/life to atone. God is not being
sentenced eternally for what He didn't commit and what He
was purchasing by the sacrifice.

Christ didn't have to pay a 2nd death becuz He did not commit
the sins - HE FULFILLED THE PERFECT LAW OF GOD. Man did
not! Man goes to Gehenna & hell becuz he broke the laws of
God and has no atonement to cover those sins.

Christ PERFECTLY FULFILLED IT, so why would He end up
condemned??? See the difference?
So using a perfect, sinless Jesus as your example for how
corrupted & evil men will be punished is unfounded and I'd
say almost insulting as if man is equal to Jesus in death.

 

[Nadiine]

*one other key point,

Jesus' original form was Deity - God.
He took on a human body for the purpose of dying
to atone with it.
As GOD, He perfectly fulfilled law, and then returned
to His NATURAL STATE: Spirit.

Man is born human, and turns to spirit and is judged
by His spiritual status.

Again, not the same as humans.

Isa:53:10: Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11: He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12: Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Man cannot remove sin, only God can. Man pays for His sin when He rejects so great a salvation and refuses to have it removed for him.
Christ, as God, had the perfection and ability and power to defeat the sin.

 

[Rajni]

Now people take as long to be punished as Jesus on the cross?

This doctrine just keeps getting better and better
(and elsewhere, 1 day is as 1000 yrs. in God's timing).???

Now let's back up - Jesus didn't commit those sins, WE DID.
God cannot and will not be sentenced to Hell when He
committed no sin, but took on others to ATONE for them.

He was PAYING with blood/life to atone. God is not being
sentenced eternally for what He didn't commit and what He
was purchasing by the sacrifice.

Christ didn't have to pay a 2nd death becuz He did not commit
the sins - HE FULFILLED THE PERFECT LAW OF GOD. Man did
not! Man goes to Gehenna & hell becuz he broke the laws of
God and has no atonement to cover those sins.

Christ PERFECTLY FULFILLED IT, so why would He end up
condemned??? See the difference?
So using a perfect, sinless Jesus as your example for how
corrupted & evil men will be punished is unfounded and I'd
say almost insulting as if man is equal to Jesus in death.

Hoo boy. I think we have to go back to Christianity 101, LOL!
Nadiine, your thoughts regarding Jesus substitutionary death on the cross: Did He, or did He not, die in our place?



.

 

[Rajni]

Man cannot remove sin, only God can. Man pays for His sin when He rejects so great a salvation and refuses to have it removed for him.
Christ, as God, had the perfection and ability and power to defeat the sin.

Man cannot remove sin, but according to the above statement, man can stop God from removing it for him. This makes the order of power, from greatest to least, as follows: Sin > Man > God.

Yikes!

 

[Nadiine]

Man cannot remove sin, but according to the above statement, man can stop God from removing it for him. This makes the order of power, from greatest to least, as follows: Sin > Man > God.

Yikes!

YES!
Didn't the people with no faith stop & hinder Jesus from performing
miracles?

Remember that Jesus didn't do miracles for people who had no faith–-such as the people in His hometown (Matt. 13:58)--

or for those who insisted that He prove Himself to them–-such as the Jewish leaders (Matt. 16:1-4).

When He ministered in His hometown, for instance, people took offense at Him, and Matthew says, "He did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith".
Matthew also reports that Jesus refused the Jewish leaders when they came to Him "and tested Him by asking Him to show them a sign from heaven" (16:1-4)

Then look at prayers that don't get answered due to doubting
or asking for the wrong motive.... (there's whole studies on why
people aren't granted their requests).

Then you can look into how God doesn't bless certain people . .

We most certainly affect how God responds to us by our
actions and inaction and especially by our FAITH & beliefs.

(ps. the flaw in your formula here is that you are not taking
into account that it was never God's PLAN to remove sin from
the unrepentan/rebellious in the first place).

 

[Rajni]

YES!

Yes?! Are you saying you agree with the hypothetical (and very wrong) conclusion that sin is more powerful than God?

Didn't the people with no faith stop & hinder Jesus from performing
miracles?

No, actually.

Remember that Jesus didn't do miracles for people who had no faith–-such as the people in His hometown (Matt. 13:58)--

Did He not do the miracles because those who had no faith had Super Powers that prevented Him from penetrating their 'force fields' to deliver miracles to them? No. This isn't a case where their lack of faith had some inherent strength to it that Jesus was unable to overcome. He simply chose not to perform miracles on them.

When He ministered in His hometown, for instance, people took offense at Him, and Matthew says, "He did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith".

Again, though, it wasn't their lack of faith that held some magical power to it which actively prevented Him from doing the miracles there. He's all-powerful, remember. It's more of a case that He simply decided it would be a waste of time at that particular juncture.

Then look at prayers that don't get answered due to doubting
or asking for the wrong motive.... (there's whole studies on why
people aren't granted their requests).

Again, this isn't because He can't answer those prayers due to some invisible force-field preventing Him from doing so. He chooses the timing of when and how prayers will be answered. His hands are not tied by what we do or don't do, or what we think or don't think.

Then you can look into how God doesn't bless certain people . .

"Bless" being a very subjective term.

We most certainly affect how God responds to us by our actions and inaction and especially by our FAITH & beliefs.

I think you might have it backwards. As I've said several times before, our faith is a gift of God. It would be more accurate to say that God affects how we respond to Him by His actions or inactions within us. He does the hardening and softening of hearts, therefore He is affecting the conduct of the hardened or softened heart. Clay, Potter, Potter Clay.

(ps. the flaw in your formula here is that you are not taking
into account that it was never God's PLAN to remove sin from
the unrepentan/rebellious in the first place).

It was never God's plan say whut?!?

Romans 5:8: But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
​

John 1:29: "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"​

 

[Nadiine]

Yes?! Are you saying you agree with the hypothetical (and very wrong) conclusion that sin is more powerful than God?

No, that's what YOU"RE concluding, it's not what I said.

If that's how you want to play that, then I can say
"God wills that we not sin - we sin - therefore,
man is more powerful than God".
Right?
Wrong.

Your formulation is flawed.

IT WAS NEVER GOD'S PLAN TO REDEEM THE REBELLIOUS
WHO REFUSE HIS GRACE. (trample on His grace)
and who refuse to repent.
That's your error here. it is that it's God's CHOICE
to let people stay in their sin or love Him and submit.
He will honor our wishes to accept or reject.

No, actually.

Did He not do the miracles because those who had no faith had Super Powers that prevented Him from penetrating their 'force fields' to deliver miracles to them? No. This isn't a case where their lack of faith had some inherent strength to it that Jesus was unable to overcome. He simply chose not to perform miracles on them.

? K,
When did I say anyone overpowered Him?
Due to man's lack, God did not do something.
So it's fitting in your formulation earlier that if God
didn't do something due to man's actions/inaction/
belief/lack of belief, then God can just as easily
not remove sin due to their lack of faith.
(since it's FAITH that determines salvation/conversion,
and one MUST be born again to see the kingdom of God).

Again, though, it wasn't their lack of faith that held some magical power to it which actively prevented Him from doing the miracles there. He's all-powerful, remember.

??
My earlier post said that God WILLED NOT TO
remove sin from those who rebel and reject.
Why do you continue focusing on lack of power?

God can limit Himself and God can make His own
decisions, plans and will without any outside forces affecting Him or His power.

Until you see that God has a will that is contrary to
your will, you may not understand things.
God doesn't sit inside your little box - amazingly
in your posts you seem to focus on God not being
limited by man, but yet that's exactly what you do
to Him by your own theology & opinions;
stick Him in a tiny box of your understanding, never
to be let out.

It's more of a case that He simply decided it would be a waste of time at that particular juncture.

Really? Where does it say that?
It wouldn't matter tho, my reply is a fact and it refutes
your earlier post.

And God can just as easily see unrepented sin, know
that they rejected their own remedy for removing that
sin, and then decide they cannot be let into His
kingdom or else the sin that remains in them will
contaminate the entire kingdom and it won't be
free of sin eternally.

Again, this isn't because He can't answer those prayers due to some invisible force-field preventing Him from doing so. He chooses the timing of when and how prayers will be answered. His hands are not tied by what we do or don't do, or what we think or don't think.

You must not have read my post too closely.
God ALSO chooses to say NO due to certain factors.
Using other reasons or excuses doesn't take away
from my point being true.

The truth is, God DOES neglect to do things that
hinge on us - BY CHOICE. Not becuz He "cannot"
AND, sometimes becuz He CANNOT -
and that's becuz if He did some of the stuff people
claim He will do, it would make Him commit sin and
be evil as He violates His own perfect attributes such as
Justice and righteousness.

"Bless" being a very subjective term.

Semantics noted, it's still a fact.

I think you might have it backwards. As I've said several times before, our faith is a gift of God. It would be more accurate to say that God affects how we respond to Him by His actions or inactions within us. He does the hardening and softening of hearts, therefore He is affecting the conduct of the hardened or softened heart. Clay, Potter, Potter Clay.

People's faith gets placed into different things.
God can give us faith, but who's faith is the Atheist
& Agnostic placed in?
YHWY?
Who's faith is the Pagan placed in? God?
Who's faith is the Muslim placed in? God?

Read Romans 1
many SUPPRESS THE TRUTH they know to believe the
lie instead; whereby, God turns them over to their
chosen depravity. Go read it: Rom 1:18-32.

Then read the parable of soils - there are 4 types of
soil, yet 3 of them never produce genuine conversion.
Only 1 does. (ie. your born again believer).

Sure, God grants a MEASURE of faith - it does not mean
that faith is placed in Him or that it's Saving faith.
(atheists have faith - that God doesn't exist).

It was never God's plan say whut?!?

Romans 5:8: But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
​

John 1:29: "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"
​

Hebrews 10:27-29



27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?



When we die, we MUST have repented and recieved His
salvation (born again).
If not, then they have not received His pardon for their sin.

Why do you think in Luke 16, the Rich man is BEGGING for
someone to go warn his family of their fate if they do not
accept? Clearly, their refusal to repent results in something
very horrible.

I can quote a plethora of verses that SHAPE THOSE
verses accurately.

You cannot just yank out 2 and then pretend no others
exist that give you the full teaching on who is
forgiven and who is not.
Who is a goat and who is a sheep.


I can cherry pick too, but it won't be truth.
Cults cherry pick verses too...
Lots of people use the verses where Jesus is in
human form & called a "man" to prove He isn't God!
Does that make it true that Christ wasn't God? :o


I'll just leave you with these 2 passages of the long list of
others that disprove all are saved:

(to the saints:
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11Such were some of you; but you were washed...

Gal. 5

19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,

20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

 

[Rajni]

No, that's what YOU"RE concluding, it's not what I said.

Then what on earth were you "YES!ing" to previously?

For the record, here's how it went:

I said (in post 1096):

"Man cannot remove sin, but according to the above statement, man can stop God from removing it for him. This makes the order of power, from greatest to least, as follows: Sin > Man > God.
​

To that statement, you directly responded (in post #1097),

"YES! Didn't the people with no faith stop & hinder Jesus from performing miracles?"
​

You confirmed my conclusion, and you went on to agree with it, so, yes, you did say it. You upheld that my conclusion about your philosophy -- that sin is more powerful than God-- was correct.

If that's how you want to play that, then I can say
"God wills that we not sin - we sin - therefore,
man is more powerful than God".
Right?
Wrong.
Your formulation is flawed.

The formulation you just proclaimed an emphatic "YES!" to not moments before. Alright, now it seems you are now arguing with yourself. To further solidify my formulation, you had even presented the situation about people with no faith "stopping and hindering Jesus from performing miracles". Now you're basically arguing that this wouldn't be the case. What, exactly, is your stance, Nadiine?

IT WAS NEVER GOD'S PLAN TO REDEEM THE REBELLIOUS
WHO REFUSE HIS GRACE. (trample on His grace)
and who refuse to repent.
That's your error here. it is that it's God's CHOICE
to let people stay in their sin or love Him and submit.
He will honor our wishes to accept or reject.

I'm sorry, but I think this is unscriptural. And no, typing it all-caps doesn't make it any truer. You are essentially placing man's will over God's.

When did I say anyone overpowered Him?

In post #1097 where you said,

"YES! Didn't the people with no faith stop & hinder Jesus from performing miracles?"
​

So it's fitting in your formulation earlier that if God
didn't do something due to man's actions/inaction/
belief/lack of belief, then God can just as easily
not remove sin due to their lack of faith.

Sure! He could do anything He wanted to. He's God. However, He has already established what His goals are, and they do not include "not removing sin due to their lack of faith". One thing you seem to keep overlooking is that faith is a gift of God."Lack of faith" is precisely the condition He went through all the trouble He did to remedy. You are basically saying that He either can't or won't do what He most certainly can and most certainly will do. Which do I believe -- you, or Him?

(since it's FAITH that determines salvation/conversion,
and one MUST be born again to see the kingdom of God).

Again, being born again is something that is done to us. We don't birth ourselves. Did you ever wonder why Jesus used the metaphor of being born if He was trying to convey that there was something we had to contribute to the soteriological process? Does a baby have to "accept" their birth before it can happen?

God can make His own
decisions, plans and will without any outside forces affecting Him or His power.

Amen. He can … and He will.

Until you see that God has a will that is contrary to
your will, you may not understand things.
God doesn't sit inside your little box - amazingly
in your posts you seem to focus on God not being
limited by man, but yet that's exactly what you do
to Him by your own theology & opinions;
stick Him in a tiny box of your understanding, never
to be let out.

ROFL! I think that little lecture is meant for you, dear, and deep down I think you already realize that. You are of the camp that says He can't or won't do what He said He would do. You even said that the faithless can actually "stop and hinder" Him from doing what He wants. Taking that into consideration, who is it, again, who has Him in a little box?




Continued in post #1101

 

[Rajni]

Continued from #1100

Really? Where does it say that?

Does the fact that He's God incarnate help?

It wouldn't matter tho, my reply is a fact and it refutes
your earlier post.

So there! LOL!

And God can just as easily see unrepented sin, know
that they rejected their own remedy for removing that
sin, and then decide they cannot be let into His
kingdom or else the sin that remains in them will
contaminate the entire kingdom and it won't be
free of sin eternally.

Yes, it's clear that you find the sickness as being far too big for the cure. Your words proclaim that you give sin's power far too much credit in contrast to the credit you give God.

People's faith gets placed into different things.
God can give us faith, but who's faith is the Atheist
& Agnostic placed in?
YHWY?
Who's faith is the Pagan placed in? God?
Who's faith is the Muslim placed in? God?

The faith we need in regards to salvation is given to us by God. Up to that point, Pagans, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, unbelievers in general put their own faith in their respective belief systems. Faith in God is faith from God. Due to our fallen nature, faith in God is the one faith we don't muster up ourselves. It is a gift of God. Faith in anything else merely comes with our fallen human nature.

Read Romans 1
many SUPPRESS THE TRUTH they know to believe the
lie instead; whereby, God turns them over to their
chosen depravity. Go read it: Rom 1:18-32.

Then read the parable of soils - there are 4 types of
soil, yet 3 of them never produce genuine conversion.
Only 1 does. (ie. your born again believer).

Sure, God grants a MEASURE of faith - it does not mean
that faith is placed in Him or that it's Saving faith.
(atheists have faith - that God doesn't exist).

The faith that comes from God isn't going to be devoid of eternal value. The popular term "saving faith" is redundant. If it's faith from God, it's saving faith -- He's not going to deal out counterfeit faith just to confuse people. The faith atheists have is not the gift of faith from God, obviously.

I can cherry pick too, but it won't be truth.

Yes, I've noticed; you do it quite well!

I'll just leave you with these 2 passages of the long list of
others that disprove all are saved:

(to the saints:
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11Such were some of you; but you were washed...

Gal. 5

19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,

20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

These verses don't disprove that all will be saved.

There's a difference between inheriting a Kingdom and merely inhabiting a Kingdom. Not all inhabitants of a Kingdom are inheritors. Here's a plethora of verses that have shown me that all will be saved:
Calvary covers it All

.

 

[PT Calvinist]

"In His hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind." - Job 12:10

Universalism...not really a big deal. couldn't we consider Open Thesim instead?

 

[Nadiine]

It's more of a case that He simply decided it would be a waste of time at that particular juncture.

Continued from #1100



Does the fact that He's God incarnate help?


So there! LOL!

No, not in the least - that's a wild speculation you made
as if it's fact.... got any evidence that each verse I gave
says that's why Jesus didn't do miracles?

 

[Rajni]

No, not in the least - that's a wild speculation you made as if it's fact.... got any evidence that each verse I gave
says that's why Jesus didn't do miracles?

Now you're saying it's just a wild speculation that Jesus is God incarnate. Are you suggesting that you do not believe that Jesus = God in the flesh?

To answer your question, you had said,

When He ministered in His hometown, for instance, people took offense at Him, and Matthew says, "He did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith".​

To which I said (my response below presented in context),

Again, though, it wasn't their lack of faith that held some magical power to it which actively prevented Him from doing the miracles there. He's all-powerful, remember. It's more of a case that He simply decided it would be a waste of time at that particular juncture.​

​

So we've got two "speculations" as to why Jesus didn't perform miracles there:

Speculation #1. He didn't perform miracles their because, as you speculated in post 1097, the people with no faith "stopped and hindered" Him from doing so.

Speculation #2. He didn't perform miracles there because, as I pointed out, as an all-powerful being it wasn't that the faithless "stopped and hindered" Him, but rather that He simply decided it would be a waste of time.

​

Is there any Scripture that supports a 3rd Speculation, or that supports Speculation #1? I can certainly provide Scripture to support the understanding of God that I have which would lead me to my "wild speculation" in Speculation #2:

The condition of the human heart is completely in God's direct control. Therefore, I don't believe people 'prevent' Him from transforming them. Rather, He transforms them in His timing. Below are Scriptures that tell me God works behind the scenes, within the human heart, and He alone determines when a person will receive Him:

Psalm 105:25 ~ He turned their heart to hate His people, to plot against His servants.

Wow. Even the direction our hearts turn is controlled by God.

Daniel 4:35 ~ All abiding on the earth are reckoned as naught: According to His will is He doing...with those abiding on the earth.

Romans 9:16 ~ Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful.

Romans 9:18 ~ Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening.

According to His will things are happening. Where, then, is human “free will” in such a scenario?

Romans 9:21 ~ Has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?

One contention I often hear from people who object to the implications of a sovereign God is “We’re not robots!”Well, that’s true. And, frankly, “robots” would be far to flattering a comparison. According to Romans 9:21, we’re not even that. We’re clay. Unlike robots, clay can’t even give the illusion of being autonomous. Clay just sits there until the potter or sculptor moves it around and forces – yes, forces – it into the shape and likeness He desires. Pretty humbling, eh?

Proverbs 16:9 ~ The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps

Proverbs 16:33 ~ The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord

Proverbs 19:21 ~ Many are the plans in a man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord will be established

Proverbs 20:24 ~ Man's steps are ordained by the Lord

To borrow from the Shania Twain tune 'In My Car (I'll Be the Driver)',

In His car, God is the Driver.
In His car, God’s in control!

We’re all in His car. And HE’s the one driving it. (It’s a sweet ride too, isn’t it?)

Proverbs 21:1 ~ The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Not only is God in charge of who’s in charge (Romans 13:1-3), even then whoever’s in charge doesn’t make a move without God’s say-so. This should come as a consolation to those who live in constant fear or dismay over their current leaders.

Philippians 2:13 ~ 'For it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.'

Check this out. Even our willingness to do something is a work of God! Not only our works, but the willingness to do that work is itself a work of God in us. This makes sense as Scripture also says that He is the Author of our faith (Hebrews 12:2) – even our faith is His; the faith of Christ is what produces our faith in Christ.
​

This isn't the end of it -- due to the space limitations on CF posts, you can see the rest here.


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