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You've totally missed my point.
If your attitude is supposed to be a model of the sort of person who "follows and depends on the Word as written", I'll pass, thank you!
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Appears to me you already passed on the Word before I got to you. Not many blessings coming down from your keyboard either sister.I'll pass, thank you!
Yep, that's pretty much what I'm telling you.Tissue;52420381]I see it quite clearly in there.
You are telling me that it is not in between the lines when I see it in between the lines.
Nope, I'll back you up on the refrigerator.That is akin to telling a person that is staring at a refrigerator that no refrigerator exists there.
The feedback I've been receiving from quite a few others tells me otherwise. But we digress .... I'll give you the last word (to quote O'ReillyAppears to me you already passed on the Word before I got to you. Not many blessings coming down from your keyboard either sister.
Nope, I'll back you up on the refrigerator.
Othersw who don't believe the Word as written eitherchaela;52420490]The feedback I've been receiving from quite a few others tells me otherwise.
Gee, thanks, (bless your heart)But we digress .... I'll give you the last word (to quote O'Reilly); you seem to need it more than I do.
ROFLTissue;52420553]Rationality in one instance does not prove rationality in all instances. This is a keen example of that.
I gave up trying to convince you a long time ago. You have it all Philosophied out in you head that scripture means nothing to you. I have quoted the whole book of jude, the send chapter of second Peter and the 21 chapter of Revelation just a few posts apart and it all gets written off. 2Kings showed what I had tried to show many times(only he did it better) that eternal judgment and eternal salvation are both proven by the origional wording. Nadiine gave lessons on the nature of God, and so many others have stuck in here at one time or another to prove your theology false teaching, but you just ignore it all.Point is, simple negation won't fly, Tim. Prove that our position is inconsistent. And, again, philosophy might do you well here. We've already shown quite clearly that our position in Scripture is quite valid.
I gave up trying to convince you a long time ago.
You have it all Philosophied out in you head that scripture means nothing to you.
I have quoted the whole book of jude, the send chapter of second Peter and the 21 chapter of Revelation just a few posts apart and it all gets written off.
2Kings showed what I had tried to show many times(only he did it better) that eternal judgment and eternal salvation are both proven by the origional wording.
Nadiine gave lessons on the nature of God, and so many others have stuck in here at one time or another to prove your theology false teaching, but you just ignore it all.
No, I've stuck it out for those on the fence who need to see the truth as compared to what you are teaching. Your smug little attitudes of pride and irreverance said we didn't understand God or thought God too weak to save us or we are haters because we know God WILL punish sin and it ain't no correctional institution, it is an eternal sentance.
I'll hang around to disclaim you until you get me kicked off, but I gave up trying to convince you, you just don't listen.
all's I'm saying is that before salvation, we're DEAD in our sin
& trespasses against God - dead in spirit.
But we HAD a spirit that was still viable and active in order for
God to even quicken it to life.
I don't believe in anihilationism - altho as I often say, I find more
credibility for it than Universalism.
Still tho, imo, it's no "payment for sin" to be dead and gone -
to know nothingness is totally worth living a full life my own
way; nothing gained, nothing lost.
In fact, anihilationism is a RELEASE from sin & penalty.
When other verses directly refute annihilationism as you describe it,The "spirit" is just too hard for us to understand right now I think. Our minds are too limited.
So, you don't believe it based on your own logic and not because of scriptures?
The worst penalty that we have in the US government is the death penalty. The death penalty certainly isn't a release from their sentence.
Our life is the only thing that we have, and even that would be taken from us... If we don't follow the Lord.
Luke 8:18
Therefore consider carefully how you listen. Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken from him."
When other verses directly refute annihilationism as you describe it
Since we have a viable spirit for God to quicken to life, and it's
considered "DEAD" prior to His regeneration in us, then it's very
possible that the 'destruction' you speak of isn't annihilationism.
The 2nd death is listed as eternally being in Gehenna where the
smoke ascends forever.
Also, again, being annihilated is RELEASE from punishment, not
punishment.
I believe all souls to be created in God's image,
and eternal.
That they continue to exist - the angels continue
existing as well.
There you go putting words in my mouth. I said I gave up trying to convince you. I'll converse with you just to keep the truth in front of the reader.Tissue;52421583]Oh. Why are you still bothering with this topic then? If you've given up conversing with us (a claim you've made in conversation), then why should we bother with your posts?
I could write a book from all the different arguements I've used on this topic over the last three years. I have argued philosophical musings on the nature of God and the word by word commentary of hundreds of scripture. What it comes down to is that the Bible is true, and second chances from the Lake of Fire are not in there (except where you read the white spaces between the lines and find it some how). You miss all the examples from scripture where litteral scripture is a foreshadowing of things to come. When God brought the Israelites out of bondage, then destroyed the non-believers. Where God saved Noah and his family and destroyed the non-believers. Where God saved Lot and his family and destroyed the non-believers.Well that's false. Scripture means something to me. I just don't resonate with the fundamentalist 'It's all right or it's all wrong' standpoint. I also am hesitant to apply the standard of 'eternal law' to statements given to a particular culture. These stances of mine are not out of spite, but out of reflection and study. You have not shown why they are incorrect, so I'm not entirely certain why you are giving up. There is always that option open to you, if you are up to it.
You haven't quoted anything that hasn't been refuted. Just like your arguements on the word eternal, they are groundles manipulations of the truth.How do you think we feel, quoting verse after verse that displays the fundamentals of Universalism with clarity and beauty?
You admit it here, you believe what you want to believe and ignore the rest. Then you move from God's word to man made philosophies and you can make anything work then.The problem is, as I have noted before, that there multiple technically valid (that is, consistent) interpretations of Scripture (an infinite number, actually). Your's fits your presuppositions. Our's fits our presuppositions.
To get at the presuppositions would require philosophy, but you don't seem so keen to delve into that. Yet, it is, again, open to you.
So it's only proven if YOU believe it? Sorry, YOU are not my standard for truth. God's word is.Proven? Not proven. Not even in the most colloquial sense of that word.
If it were proven (a word you might want to look up in the dictionary), then I would have no choice as a rational person but to agree. But it has not been proven. I have provided defenses, as have others, that successfully (or apparently successfully, as you and others have been unable to mount a successful critique of them) accounts for your assaults.
You need to understand that, even if you have the strongest intuition that you are right, there is always the chance that you are wrong. Open-mindedness would solve a lot of problems in this topic.
You say this and then slam me. If you want to preach it live it.Pride? Irreverence? Sounds like you're getting upset. I am not denigrating your stance. I am merely trying to present our stance as something that more fully encapsulates the love of God.
Charity, friend.
Tim, if you provide a consistent, powerful argument that is tight and valid, I will listen.
MY arguements are lame huh.But, may I be frank? I will assume so, as your recent post was quite caustic.
Your arguments are horrible. Shallow. Hollow. Inconsistent. Weak. And now, you are upset with me because I am not convinced by your inferior arguments?
I am open-minded. I have been confronted by issues on this forum a number of times that have caused me to edit my views. Were I not open-minded, I might have stayed a conservative fundamentalist all my life (as that was the world in which I grew up). But to change an open mind, it takes more than mere claims. It takes reasoning, and your's I have found to be lacking every step of the way.
I'm sure you think you're being quite clever or clear in your reasoning, but I do not find you to be so, nor do others. If you wish to blame this on our ignorance, we can say nothing to change your mind. That would be, however, quite a cop-out.
Believing anything but scripture. Your opinions are so bias and as you say yourself, it is based on YOUR understanding, not God's word.In my opinion, either annihilation or universal reconciliation MUST be correct. I cannot say with certainty that everyone will be saved, but I can say with certainty (while admitting I am fallible) that there can not be persons eternally damned, according to my understanding of God. It simply doesn't fit.
I am naturally sympathetic toward my brothers and sisters, and thus am inclined toward universalism.
I am naturally sympathetic toward my brothers and sisters, and thus am inclined toward universalism.
I understand what your saying. But for myself, I do see even the ungodly as my brothers and sisters. Why you ask? Because like myself, they were created with the God's Breath of life. So by God's own breath, I do see myself as brothers and sisters with all human beings. And from my heart and soul, I also look to them as such.The ungodly are not our brothers or sisters.
Most don't even care one way or another about Jesus Christ. That does not make them enemies of Jesus Christ.You way over estimate the spirit of the comon man. Most are enemies of your Lord and Savior.
I can't help myself If I see a spark of God with in the souls of others, even if they don't believe in God...I will love them as children of God. And by God's own Breath that gave all of us life, they are my brothers and sisters. Tim, my brother, you dont need to do so, I understand your limits on seeing others as your brother and sister, but I just cant help myself and will continue to do so. I think the world is better off that way.Try to get them saved but don't call them family and think they are children of God until you do.
I think some might see it as more panenthistic in nature.Calling everyone a chil;d of god is a pantheistic approach.
There you go putting words in my mouth. I said I gave up trying to convince you. I'll converse with you just to keep the truth in front of the reader.
I could write a book from all the different arguements I've used on this topic over the last three years. I have argued philosophical musings on the nature of God and the word by word commentary of hundreds of scripture. What it comes down to is that the Bible is true, and second chances from the Lake of Fire are not in there (except where you read the white spaces between the lines and find it some how). You miss all the examples from scripture where litteral scripture is a foreshadowing of things to come. When God brought the Israelites out of bondage, then destroyed the non-believers. Where God saved Noah and his family and destroyed the non-believers. Where God saved Lot and his family and destroyed the non-believers.
You haven't quoted anything that hasn't been refuted. Just like your arguements on the word eternal, they are groundles manipulations of the truth.
You admit it here, you believe what you want to believe and ignore the rest. Then you move from God's word to man made philosophies and you can make anything work then.
So it's only proven if YOU believe it? Sorry, YOU are not my standard for truth. God's word is.
You say this and then slam me. If you want to preach it live it.
MY arguements are lame huh.
"All will one day believe given enough time"
"All will love the Lord given enough time"
"All will walk humbly with God, even in the Lake of fire"
"All will worship God once they are burned enough"
"I don't limit God, I free Him, so long as He saves everyone."
"I could not love a God who didn't save everyone, even those who are not his children and don't want to be"
And you call my arguements lame:o
Believing anything but scripture. Your opinions are so bias and as you say yourself, it is based on YOUR understanding, not God's word.
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