Universalism

Poverello78 said:

If no one will be punished 'eternally' for sin, and the worst is right now, I'm gonna go have me some fun!

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If you still see sin as "fun" then maybe you need to keep working on your faith......eternally is absense of time or time without beginning or end, however the exact duration is unknown could be 5 million years or 1 thousand as far as I am concerned I want no part of it....

And since this is a philosophy forum can anyone philosophically explain how it is just and loving to create flawed beings and punish them eternally for being flawed?

Poverello78 said:

If no one will be punished 'eternally' for sin, and the worst is right now, I'm gonna go have me some fun!

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Read this just a while ago....

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Has the doctrine of eternal torture kept men from backsliding?

Has it turned the world to God?

Has it made the streets in your city safe to walk at night?

Has it kept the Christians from growing spiritually cold, or from committing disgraceful sins?

Has it prevented Churches from becoming worldly, or sinking into apostasy?

It has not! If anyone thinks to use their service to God as a fire escape, He will not accept it. Our service must be because we love Him. Everything He did for us was because He loved us, and He will accept nothing less from us. "The love of Christ constrains us" (11 Cor. 5:14).[/FONT]

JP Eby

Nadiine said:

Again, salvation comes by FAITH, not PROOF after you've
seen God in His domain and stand at judgment being
sentenced for your sin.

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This is something we really have to take time to think on.

How many people saw Christ Jesus while He walked the earth and believed?.. quite a few. They still had to believe "by faith".

Jesus said it is more "blessed" to believe without seeing. He didn't say you cannot believe IF you see.

Joh 20:29 Jesus *said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

This is the joy and blessing of believing on the Christ in THIS age... the age of grace. For those who have believed without seeing there will be the greater reward. That does not negate that most can receive faith to believe in the ages to come.

exactly heaven springs.....

heavensprings said:

This is something we really have to take time to think on.

How many people saw Christ Jesus while He walked the earth and believed?.. quite a few. They still had to believe "by faith".

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I already addressed this heavensprings.

Seeing Jesus PHYSICALLY as a human man with frailties isn't near
the same to seeing God in His full glory on His throne IN THE NEXT
LIFE when we're in spirit form.
Jesus became a man and ate food like them, got tired & went to sleep like them,
had a carpentry job, used the bathroom & was BORN into the world thru
a mother like anyone else (as far as they visually saw) -

He also claimed that everything He said and did was done thru Him
BY GOD THE FATHER. He said that He only repeats what the Father
tells Him.

For all intents and purposes, they saw a human man there - and all
those miracles (which many still didn't believe in Him after seeing)
were done by the Father.
Then, Jesus left them (without reigning and ruling like
the Jews had expected Him to).
So they still to go on with their everyday life using FAITH in what Christ showed them of God.
They still went thru trials and persecutions for their faith afterwards
and struggled as new believers.

Remember, He came to point the way to the Father - and show the
Father. All they saw Jesus do, was in the framework of the Father doing
His work THRU the Messiah/the man.
And we also know that no one can see God (God in His fullness
of being) and live. So obviously, in their human status, they didn't see
God in His fullness or else they would have died.

Now you want to try to compare that to dying physically, being in the
next life as a 'bare' spirit without the physical shell, being in some
unknown - non earthly place (hell or paradise), then being in God's direct
presence in His full glory at the throne of judgment when He's
conversing with you about what you did while in your body: spirit to spirit,
and then tell me that seeing Jesus when He came to earth is the same?

Standing at God's throne of judgment is the finally.
Being judged as God sits on His majestic thrones (white throne or
bema seat) is the end-all; it's nothing compared to what they saw from Jesus
when He walked the earth. NOTHING.
I think all of us would be a bit disheartened to see Roman guards
beating up "God" & nailing Him to cross.

No, it still took ALOT of faith to believe whether seeing Jesus
or not. It won't be faith after death when we're in our spirit
form and visibly seeing God in His fullness at judgment time where
there is no faith necessary anymore.

Salvation is by FAITH - once we hit the next life, all faith is gone;
just like the demons don't need faith becuz they know God face
to face.

Jesus said it is more "blessed" to believe without seeing. He didn't say you cannot believe IF you see.

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So what? See what? What He was declaring was that He was
their Messiah "He came to His own and His own recieved Him not".
Does that not tell you that there's still FAITH involved when many
rejected what they saw??
Again, see the above details of what they actually saw and what
Jesus claimed.

What did they come to believe? Even Phillip later on asked to see
the Father - and Jesus replied "have I been with you so long that
you don't know who I am?"
ie. They didn't fully grasp who Jesus was.
They LATER came to believe that He was their Messiah - God in flesh-
and that was after Jesus had to explain Himself in the scriptures to them.
This still required faith even seeing the Messiah.

In fact, many teachers believe the disciples weren't actually born again
until Pentecost.

Additionally, the Pharisees said that His miracles were done by/thru
Demons! That's all they had to do is attribute what they
saw to demonic spirits who had power.
Look at the miracles done in Pharaoh's court where their rods
turned to snakes....
Again, there's plenty of room to deny what they saw - they saw
a human man with frailties claiming to be the Messiah.
Do you believe those types of human beings today when they
wear a white robe & claim Jesus' name?

FAITH IS INVOLVED directly whether they saw Jesus or not.
And the fact that MANY saw and did NOT believe, shows you that
faith is still the active ingredient at the source.
And who grants the faith? Who predestines? GOD.

This is the joy and blessing of believing on the Christ in THIS age... the age of grace. For those who have believed without seeing there will be the greater reward. That does not negate that most can receive faith to believe in the ages to come.

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If that's remotely true, then God owes reward to every demon and
Satan who SEES HIM & knows who He is yet still rejects & rebels.
But that's not their fate at all. They're already condemned.

You also need to prove this biblically.
So please find me the verse that tells me that they don't need FAITH
to be saved (in the next "age").
Do you have anything to support your theory?
It will have to be clear since we know that Salvation IS BY
FAITH ONLY.
I don't want any of this 'reading in' that is so prevalent by Universalists.

Yardstick said:

I do not mean to suggest that some are beyond salvation, for you are right, that would be a limit on God's power. But the fact remains one would need to desire to be in God's presence.

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Exactly.....one must desire with everything in them to be in God's presence.

Interestingly brings to mind something Paul washer said...something like this:

of course everyone wants to go to heaven...but not everyone wants to see God there. They wanna just kinda sneak in there somehow..but there's no love for God, no worship, no payin' Him no mind, still lovers of theirselves, detractors of what God says, having no fear of God (respect), minimizing the death of God's only begotten Son, and brushing God off as if He were a fly. To these, God Himself will throw into the lake of fire. He will spew them from His mouth. Jesus the Christ Himself will say to such, depart from Him for He never knew them. When you think about it, it reminds me of a pompous stranger, attempting to gain entry illegally to a dwelling they have no right to. It's called trespassing. There are consequences for that.

God is holy and righteous and just. He is a Man of War. His wrath will show itself on that day. He tells us. He warns us:

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." ~Hebrews 10:31

Paul Washer has spoken the truth. Universalism is a lie from the father of lies. There is no escape from the Lake of Fire, it is the final judgment. Jesus calls it the second death. Just as we cease to exist after the first death, those who receive the final judgment, after they are raised from the dead for the judgment, will also be destroyed in the Lake of Fire and experience the death of the soul and cease to exist at that point. The Lake of Fire is not a "refining fire" as some wishful thinkers think. It is the final judgment. Just as the beast and the false prophet will be destroyed in it, so will those who go the way of satan.

Calvin Tyer

brinny said:

Exactly.....one must desire with everything in them to be in God's presence.

Interestingly brings to mind something Paul washer said...something like this:

of course everyone wants to go to heaven...but not everyone wants to see God there. They wanna just kinda sneak in there somehow..but there's no love for God, no worship, no payin' Him no mind, still lovers of theirselves, detractors of what God says, having no fear of God (respect), minimizing the death of God's only begotten Son, and brushing God off as if He were a fly. To these, God Himself will throw into the lake of fire. He will spew them from His mouth. Jesus the Christ Himself will say to such, depart from Him for He never knew them. When you think about it, it reminds me of a pompous stranger, attempting to gain entry illegally to a dwelling they have no right to. It's called trespassing. There are consequences for that.

God is holy and righteous and just. He is a Man of War. His wrath will show itself on that day. He tells us. He warns us:

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." ~Hebrews 10:31

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heavensprings said:

This is something we really have to take time to think on.

How many people saw Christ Jesus while He walked the earth and believed?.. quite a few. They still had to believe "by faith".

Jesus said it is more "blessed" to believe without seeing. He didn't say you cannot believe IF you see.

Joh 20:29 Jesus *said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

This is the joy and blessing of believing on the Christ in THIS age... the age of grace. For those who have believed without seeing there will be the greater reward. That does not negate that most can receive faith to believe in the ages to come.

Click to expand...

To be completely blunt as all "he did not say" people seem to need, he also did not say "don't throw cats against televisions" or my favorite "don't boil hamsters with spaghetti noodles", you know come to think of it, Jesus was not like the commandments; instead of telling you what not to do he told you what to do.

Jesus was the polar opposite of the law which forbid you to do things.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Again, Jesus does not tell you what is sin or what keeps you out of Heaven, He tells you what gets you in. Again Jesus says that not everyone will get into heaven.

so then you believe that mans free will is greater than God's Sovreign Will, You believe that God's will is somehow being thwarted by Satans will to tempt and destroy. On this point your Idea of God's will for unsaved man and Satan's will for all of mankind are the same....destroyed. The problem with this veiw is that it puts evil in a place where God does not have complete victory.Eternal Torment= God and Evil coexist forever with God Eternally tormenting evil to no end and evil never dying or repenting.....Anniahlation=God Trys to convince all of mankind to stop being evil, but is unable and so is forced to destroy most of his creation.....

And just because he did not say speccifically do not throw cats against the television does not necessarily apply here.....
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Here it specifically says Thomas believed because he saw the scars on his hands because he touched the scars....
From Nadine

So what? See what? What He was declaring was that He was
their Messiah

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He was seeing the scars, he was seeing the proof that Jesus was the Messiah.
G4100
πιστεύω
pisteuō
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
The word translated as "beleive"...it is taken from..
G4102
πίστις
pistis
pis'-tis
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
taken from......
G3982
πείθω
peithō
pi'-tho
A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): - agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.
Faith comes from being convinced. Here in the world we experience God and Salvation by faith. Faith is not always in things that cannot be seen or experienced....but it can be.....................

Where do you get that idea? "Jesus was not like the commandments?" Jesus said He did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it and that not one jot or tittle would by any means pass away until all should be fulfilled. All is not yet fulfilled. Further, Jesus says in Rev. 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." and Rev. 22:13, "I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."

To say that Jesus was not like the commandments, is an oxymoron. Jesus is the Word of God made manifest in the flesh. (see John 1:14) Jesus is God. (see John 1:1) All of the words from Genesis to Revelation are HIS.

Jesus said ALL of the law and the prophets hang on the two commandments He gave. In other words, if you love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself, you will OBEY all of the commandments. He didn't abolish them, He combined them to make it simple so that even a child could understand.

You are wrong when you state that Jesus did not say what sin is (assuming you are just referring to the words in red). Jesus, (speaking of the red lettered portions, which are recordings of what He said in His ministry on earth), not only said what sin is, He made some very condemning statements as well as during His 3 1/2 year ministry, as recorded in the Gospels and Revelation spoke more about hell than any of the other books combined.

To those He delivered and healed He said, "sin no more" and to some he added, "lest a worse thing come upon you."

He said plenty about what will keep one out of heaven. Do you not recall Him explaining the narrow path that leads to life and how few will find it? That most will take the broad way that leads to destruction?

Read and STUDY closely the words in Revelation, and you will see that Jesus is not returning to the earth with a flower in His hand, but with a rod of iron. He is not returning again as the lamb of God, to be led to slaughter, but is returning with a sword as King of Kings and Lord of Lords and will slaughter His enemies.

The blood of men at the battle of Armageddon, which Jesus is returning and leading the armies of heaven into will shed the blood of men to the tune of 200 miles wide and the depth of a horse's bridle.

Calvin Tyer

rcorlew said:

To be completely blunt as all "he did not say" people seem to need, he also did not say "don't throw cats against televisions" or my favorite "don't boil hamsters with spaghetti noodles", you know come to think of it, Jesus was not like the commandments; instead of telling you what not to do he told you what to do.

Jesus was the polar opposite of the law which forbid you to do things.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Again, Jesus does not tell you what is sin or what keeps you out of Heaven, He tells you what gets you in. Again Jesus says that not everyone will get into heaven.

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When the time of grace that God has offered is over, it IS God's will to destroy His enemies and He is going to do just that. Take the time to read and study the book of Revelation. It's there for a reason, that all men might know about the judgment and wrath of God that is coming to the earth, so that they might take advantage of the period of grace wherewith He is staying His hand, so that all who shall enter, will have an opportunity to do so, BEFORE He pours out His judgment, that they who receive the gift of grace, offered through the sacrifice of Christ may be spared, having been passed from the judgment unto eternal life. We are in the time of grace, but the time of judgment and the time of the wrath of God is coming. And it is nearer now than it ever was.

Calvin Tyer

preistsplace said:

so then you believe that mans free will is greater than God's Sovreign Will, You believe that God's will is somehow being thwarted by Satans will to tempt and destroy. On this point your Idea of God's will for unsaved man and Satan's will for all of mankind are the same....destroyed. The problem with this veiw is that it puts evil in a place where God does not have complete victory.Eternal Torment= God and Evil coexist forever with God Eternally tormenting evil to no end and evil never dying or repenting.....Anniahlation=God Trys to convince all of mankind to stop being evil, but is unable and so is forced to destroy most of his creation.....

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When God says "the wages of sin is death" did he forget to say "oh, and everlasting torment I forgot to mention"?

Just subscribing.

It is God's will that all should be saved
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
God wills that all be saved Jesus Gave himself as the ransom for all....
1Ti 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
Here again God is the saviour of all men......
In turn saying that he payed for all and only saves some because mans "free-will" is in play undermines the power of our Lord. In one way or another no matter how you assemble the words you are saying that while it is God's will that all be saved , man's will keeps that from happening e.g. you says man's will is stronger than God's will.....

LJSGM said:

When God says "the wages of sin is death" did he forget to say "oh, and everlasting torment I forgot to mention"?

Just subscribing.

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he left it out in the Garden of Eden as well....
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
You would think that something as important as everlasting torment would be told repeatedly to mankind throughout the OT.......

Ct destroy his enemies he will surely do......he will show them what he did for them and they after being punished for their sins will elect to follow him, not out of fear but out of love seeing that he has been calling them only that they did not hear

The punishment for sin is death, and not the first death, we all experience that now that Adam and Eve fell. There is only ONE way and ONE name given under heaven by which we must be saved, and that is through Jesus Christ. Either He pays for our sin and we are made heirs or we reject the offer and face the second death. Punishment for rejecting the Messiah, the only way of salvation offered to mankind is the second death from which there will be no resurrection. The Lake of Fire is a permanent judgment, not a refining fire. The beast, nor the false prophet nor those who go their way will ever come out of Lake of Fire, they will be destroyed by it and will no longer exist thereafter. Read and study the Book of Revelation.

Calvin Tyer

preistsplace said:

Ct destroy his enemies he will surely do......he will show them what he did for them and they after being punished for their sins will elect to follow him, not out of fear but out of love seeing that he has been calling them only that they did not hear

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timlamb said:

You make us sound like puppets. Until God pulls the strings nothing happens. We can do nothing that He doesn't allow, but we have a will and a spirit and a mind, and we have choices.

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We're not even as sophisticated as puppets, if Scripture has any say
in it. Clay, meet Potter.

You guys talk like all the problems of the world are God's fault. Everything is God's fault and He has to make it right by getting us all saved and into heaven, right? I think I understand your problem because if I believed like you I'd think God owed me too. If I believed it was up to God to get me saved then I'd be mad as heck if I had to suffer any wrath or do any "Hell time" for my sins, cuz He could have stopped me sooner according to you.

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Since God has no faults, God owes us nothing, and God isn't a
problem, you might want to redo the above paragraph.

You guys spend too much time in philosophy class and not enough time in the word.

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Unless you've installed hidden cameras in "us guys'" homes, this
claim is unsubstantiated. I understand how this conclusion would
get a person off the hook however; writing it off as mere
philosophy does make it easier for you to not have to give it
further thought or do further research, which can be helpful for you
if you're too busy to do so.



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Nadiine said:

Well then Chaela, show us AFTER these people are dead
that they're repenting and 'believing' and converting...

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I have a harder time finding where they aren't granted repentance.

Again, salvation comes by FAITH, not PROOF after you've
seen God in His domain and stand at judgment being
sentenced for your sin.

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If the rules change after one dies and actually sees God, why insist
that faith in an unseen God would still be required for their salvation?

You can continue all day long on your observations, but
they don't prove what you're saying they do.

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"Proof" this side of the grave is elusive. You might have
noticed that all the bibles in the world, in their entirety, don't
constitute as "proof" to some (called "atheists" - you may have
heard of 'em? ) for what we say about the very existence of God,
let alone any aspect of theology.






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