Universalism

timlamb · Jun 25, 2009

preistsplace said:
tim, nadine, those are very convincing arguments if we decide to Forget that God is all powerful. He is capable of presenting the circumstances necessary to every individual that ever lived so that they open their eyes and see and accept him out of love and not fear of hell. The earthly father shuns the seven to save the three because he has reached the end of his ability to fix the problem, Our Heavenly Father does not face such difficulties, not even the free will of man can stop him. He can do it without violating the free will
The Lord truly is mighty to save...Blessings In Christ

Sorry preistsplace, but your statement is more consistant with a stong belief in man, not God. Of course God is all powerful, but what is more important to Him it seems is the heart of His creation. He made us with the ability and heart to chose, he gives us all the information necessary to make a good choice. If it were not our choice THEN it would seem wrong to be punished at all.

Scripture says it, I believe it, and that requires more faith and trust when I look at unbelieving family and friends than anything I do. But I trust God to know and do the right thing, and especially to do what He says.

Nadiine · Jun 25, 2009

tim, nadine, those are very convincing arguments if we decide to Forget that God is all powerful.

Hi P =)

I don't have time to answer this in a more in depth way right now,
but I did want to reply to this,

here's what I think is the real issue - man's [mis]definition of God's Love
as well as the removal (or misdefinition) of God's attribute of justice.

God is both loving and just, nevermind about power, once we grasp
His attributes, the power is only going to act or be framed within
His actual character.
God can do alot of things, but the minute they fall outside His
character, all the power in the world won't cause Him to violate
the attributes He carries.
God's power has zero to do with the fact that He cannot Lie,
that has everything to do with who God is in essense.
A pure, perfect and righteous God has power to Lie, but who He
is restricts Him from being able to sin or do evil.

So this is more about our views on His attributes and that is where
we need to dig deeper to study this topic further.
just my 5 cents on that aspect

=)

Armistead · Jun 26, 2009

timlamb said:
All in all is a sign of completeness. He is all love to those whom chose salvation, and He is justice to those who chose to serve another master.

Armistead, I do understand what seems unfair, but I think you fail to see the trouble with affluence. It can be as crippling spiritually as poverty and strife. I live in a small middle class town with an active youth group and three churches. The kids have every oppertunity to participate in sports and church and school and yet only 1 in 30 show any sign of being true followers of Christ. My daughters are in Jr. High and High school and I want to cry for the appathy in the kids which is a reflection of the parents. sometimes I pray for whatever it takes to bring them to their knees. I believe God would do it IF it would truly change things.

The doctrine of child salvation is founded. I questioned it a while back and there are just a few verses that support it. Personally I believe children are conceived into grace. It is at rebelion that one falls from grace. I also believe from many verses that we are judged on the basis of our knowledge. I think to "Know Jesus" is a slightly different meaning to a native of africa or a hindu or moslum who never hears the Gospel. The law is written in their hearts.

You are right however, the scriptures do say without a doubt, you must recieve Jesus in your heart to be saved. I believe some things that maybe I read into scripture that make salvation more acceptable to me, but I don't hold Jesus hostage to it, because I am certain I will understand why when I get there.

Have you ever stared into the face of evil? If you have you should be able to understand the danger of evil and how it contaminates what it touches and why God will reject all who are not seeking righteousness. I have a brother in law who you would love, everyone does. He is funny and laughs all all your jokes. He is open and honest and would give you the shirt off his back. But mention Jesus to him and the mask comes off. He curses the name of our savior and mocks God. Six years ago when I gave my life back to the Lord and quit drinking I began writing my sister about all that was happening. One day my family and I were within a short drive from their home and I called to see if they would be home. My sister said sure, come over, but leave the religious talk at the curb. She said I wasn't welcome if I was going to talk about that stuff. She was raised in the church and claims to believe but raised atheist children and now grand children because she is afraid of upsetting her husband. I ask you, is this "Nice Guy" what you would expect God to adopt into His family?

I think the only real difference is that you believe guys like my brother in law to change when they see what hell is like. I believe scripture states very clearly that most, when faced with the suffering, will rebel and hate Him even more. Hell might scre some into seeking God, but it doesn't keep them. If they don't enter into a loving relationship with their Lord and Savior once they know Him they are still in rebellion and reject Him and they are lost.

All our desires, such as mine for my brother in law, will not change the truth. The scriptures are true and honest and if we saw people how God sees them we would know who to strive for and who are already lost. God does not contend with man forever.

Trust the Word and trust God that He is doing what is right for His children.

I have used this before: If you had ten children and seven of them took to the streets, buying and selling drugs, prostitution, stealing, lying to you and everyone they could use, you would continue to love them and try to help, right? but when they started comming into the home where your remaining three children were trying to live good and obey you and started telling lies and trying to get them on drugs and to misuse their bodies with sexual perversion, out of love for the three you would reject the seven, though it hurt to do it. And picture that scene where all were not from your family but the three had begged you to adopt them, and the others were actually following others and totally rejecting you. You would let the seven go and rejoice in the three. Would you feel like you failed? You save those who wanted your home, and gave them all you had. it was offered to the rest but they rejected it and made a decission that stands.

The word says all those who reject the Son also reject the Father and the Father will reject them.

Certainly affluence can be crippling as poverty depending on the same factors. Many a rich father shows no love to their children, they are selfish. We can just look at the many shows on TV where rich parents spoiled their kids, didn't love them and see what they turned out to be.
In the end man couldn't be accountable for his eternal soul, Christ had to be.

There is only one way into heaven, through Christ, the bible is clear. We cannot make up doctrines of accountability for children, those that haven't heard, ect., to try and make salvation fair. Those that believe in ET must make up these doctrines because they can't believe God would be so unfair to children, those that never heard, such as the Indians, ect.
They deny the total work of the cross and that it is the only way.

For those like your brother we don't have the tools to correct that behavior so we don't let them around. God has those tools and with his correct judgments can deal with those issues and all things will be reconciled through the cross. We are limited, God is not.

The early church was UR for almost 500 years. When governments decided they better join the movement less they be taken over by it, doctrines were changed. We can thank Dante, many Popes and a host of greedy people for that. They realized fear would control the masses, giving them total control....and power. In the end that was the plan of ET.

Sadly, the doctrine of torture has done more harm to humanity than any other evil. Take time to study the changes of the church throughout history after it accepted the doctrine of torture. When the church accepted a God that tortures, it became an extended arm of that same principle and took up torture in the most brutal fashion. After all, if God would do it, it became their duty. We now all look back and say that was a terrible time, but the fact is we still accept the principle that caused that behavior. If not for secular law , Christians and those leading the church would still be in the business of torture today. Where secular law is lacking and religion rules, torture still abounds.

It's a long debate. I was a fundie ind. Baptist for 20 years so I know the ET doctrine well. Even when I believed it, it bothered me that God's plan in the end would end up with him torturing the mass of humanity. That was hard to swallow knowing God knew the end result before he created anything. All those that believe ET struggle with that concept if they're honest.

I think the first thought any ET believer has when they have children is will that beautiful baby wooing in their arms end up being tortured by God for all eternity. Seems it would be better to kill all children and secure for them a place in heaven. If hell is a reality, what loving parent would take a 1% chance their child would be tortured forever. Yes, murder is against God's rule, but I would take any punishment to save my children from eternal hell, including taking their place. I as a loving parent can do that. Sadly, the God you believe in can't. The Christ I believe in did just that.

I went to a debate, UR against ET years ago..to cheer for the ET side and left totally confused and lost over what I believed. I then spent years studying both side by side. I was a Sunday School teacher in a Baptist church. I loved that church, still do. However after comparing both side by side I finally told the Pastor I could no longer support ET. We then studied it together for months. I honestly think he no longer believes in ET, but will not admit it. At least he will admit to the hope of UR, but errs on ET...and probably wants to keep his job. Obvious, per the church rules I gave up my position there.

I walked into a Baptist Church when I was 16, got saved and after that I was hook, line and sinker Baptist. What you believe becomes hardwired into your brain and few dare to put their beliefs on trial.

I'm glad I did.

preistsplace · Jun 26, 2009

Nadiine said:
Hi P =)

I don't have time to answer this in a more in depth way right now,
but I did want to reply to this,

here's what I think is the real issue - man's [mis]definition of God's Love
as well as the removal (or misdefinition) of God's attribute of justice.

God is both loving and just, nevermind about power, once we grasp
His attributes, the power is only going to act or be framed within
His actual character.
God can do alot of things, but the minute they fall outside His
character, all the power in the world won't cause Him to violate
the attributes He carries.
God's power has zero to do with the fact that He cannot Lie,
that has everything to do with who God is in essense.
A pure, perfect and righteous God has power to Lie, but who He
is restricts Him from being able to sin or do evil.

So this is more about our views on His attributes and that is where
we need to dig deeper to study this topic further.
just my 5 cents on that aspect

=)

I agree that there are things he will not do based on his character . Let us prayerfully consider thes verses.....
From Hope Beyond Hell....Free@ http://hopebeyondhell.net

A Just Judge

What kind of a judge is God? Can we count on Him to do what is right and fair for everyone? Absolutely! "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right" (Gen_18:25)? Scripture abounds with references to His just and righteous judgments. Please reflect on these:
Beatenaccording to guilt.forty blowsno more (Deu_25:2-4).
All His ways are justice, a Godwithout injustice (Deu_32:4).
As he has done, so shall it be to himfracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth (Lev_24:19-20).
The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether (Psa_19:9).
Your judgments are a great deep; O Lord, You preserve man and beast (Psa_36:6).
To You belongs mercy; You render to each one according to his work (Psa_62:12).
He shall judge the world with righteousness (Psa_96:13; Act_17:31).
I know that Your judgments are right, and that in faithfulness You have afflicted me (Psa_119:75).
Though He causes grief, yet He will show compassion according to the multitude of His mercies. For He does not afflict willingly, nor grieve the children of men (Lam_3:31-33).
He does not retain His anger forever, because He delights in mercy (Mic_7:18).
Every transgression and disobedience received a just reward (Heb_2:2).
Woe to youyou will receive greater condemnation (Mat_23:14). Greater than what?
It shall be more tolerable for Sodom in the day of judgment than for you (Mat_11:20-24; Luk_10:14). What kind of everlasting punishment would be "more tolerable" than another?
God renders to each according to his deeds (Rom_2:5-6).
He who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality (Col_3:25).
A generic infinite punishment for everyone contradicts all that Scripture declares about God's just and righteous judgments. Statements like, "to each one according to his deeds" and "fracture for fractureeye for eye," fly in the face of infinite punishment. Each punishment fits its crime. God's idea of justice is not different than ours. Yes, His ways are not our ways, but only because He has more mercy than we have, not less! (See Isa_55:7-8). These numerous passages demonstrate what is right for the Judge of all the earth to do in judgment.

Rajni · Jun 26, 2009

Armistead said:
When I first started having problems with hell, it wasn't based on my beliefs, I was a hardcore fundie, it was rather the fairness of who is or isn't saved. In a Baptist Bible College is where my hell beliefs started falling apart.

Most of who we are or become depends on several factors. Where we were born, how our parents raised us, culture, wealth or poverty, ect.

Obvious the argument get's complex in detail, but let's compare numbers.
Take children that grow up in abusive homes. The facts are they will become the next generation of abusers. When one grows up never knowing love, one hardly knows how to give it.

Take a child that is born never knowing a father. His mother is abusive and he grows up in the ghetto in poverty. Usually he will join a gang to survive. He see's hate, crime, murder and never learns what love is. By the time his teens have passed often he finds himself in prision. He may have heard the gospel, but his brain was hardwired early in life to hate and hurt. Due to racism and poverty this is happening to the African American community where 80% of children don't have a father. The jails become full. His mind is set and why a few escape this social cycle the majority don't.

Compare that to someone that is raised by two loving parents with all needs met. His parents teach him about God and moral codes. He is loved and knows how to love. He is much more likely to accept Christ. The fact remains there are many factors beyond a persons control that shape them for life.

The same issue abounds in culture. If a child is born in Iran, 99% chance he will be Muslim, China, a buddist, India, a Hindu. Millions of minds have been programmed from birth to believe....and they do believe as much as any Christian, yet they are doomed to hell.

For eternal torture to be fair, everyone would have to be judged on an equal basis. Fundies make up false doctrines to excuse children, like age of accountability, because even they can't accept God torturing children for lack of understanding, but can't excuse the other conditions that shape a person. LIke some switch that happens at a certain age we become accountable and all the previous factors that shaped us don't matter. All evidence shows mental patterns become hardwired in childhood.

In reality salvation is the luck of the draw.

Not to mention the doctrine is biblically unsound.

I'm glad my wife didn't marry me out of fear. The majority of people get saved out of fear of hell. Sad people think God has to use a took like that to draw men to himself. I could put a gun to someones head and say love me or I'll shoot and they will say they love me. The doctrine of hell works the same. It's spiritual rape of the soul.

In the end Christ will do as he stated...he will reconcile ALL things to the father through the cross. Those that fight against UR seldom take the time to study it.

Understanding Universal Salvation Part One

timlamb · Jun 26, 2009

All that scripture and they just close their eyes. Having your head in the sand may feel safer but it doesn't change the truth. You guys totaly ignore post after post of scripture. Sure, you throw out verse after verse of out of context verse that could support your stand but ignore the rest of the bible that defines the true meaning of the scripture you quoted.

I find your concept of tormenting people into submission to get into heaven appaling. You turn the place of weeping and Gnashing of teeth into a gentle rebuke. You make the lake of fire into the refiners fire, you change the bible for some philosophy that gets your unbelieving friend or loved one into heaven, but it is false teaching.

Matthew 24:51
He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:30
And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Somehow I have trouble seeing THIS as part of God's redemptive process!

In the end, all you have are false hopes and philisophical pinings that carry on the dillusion of a god that changes all mens hearts against their wills, or is it changing their wills against their hearts, or changing their hearts and wills against their nature...I don't know, it just isn't right...but you won't listen...

threedog · Jun 26, 2009

Yardstick said:
I see hell as completely necessary, but not out of some desire to see those I disagree with suffer for eternity. No, hell is necessary for the existence of free will. What kind of god would force a soul that wanted nothing to do with him to exist in his presence for all eternity? That would most certainly be wrong.

Yardstick, you make no sense whatsoever. Hitler had freewill. Freewill is a curse not a blessing. A tool for evil. It is obvious you have not suffered enough at the expense of someone else's evil intentions. Suffering is just an idea!

threedog

heavensprings · Jun 26, 2009

preistsplace said:
I agree that there are things he will not do based on his character . Let us prayerfully consider thes verses.....
From Hope Beyond Hell....Free@ http://hopebeyondhell.net

A Just Judge
What kind of a judge is God? Can we count on Him to do what is right and fair for everyone? Absolutely! "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right" (Gen_18:25)? Scripture abounds with references to His just and righteous judgments. Please reflect on these:
Beatenaccording to guilt.forty blowsno more (Deu_25:2-4).
All His ways are justice, a Godwithout injustice (Deu_32:4).
As he has done, so shall it be to himfracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth (Lev_24:19-20).
The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether (Psa_19:9).
Your judgments are a great deep; O Lord, You preserve man and beast (Psa_36:6).
To You belongs mercy; You render to each one according to his work (Psa_62:12).
He shall judge the world with righteousness (Psa_96:13; Act_17:31).
I know that Your judgments are right, and that in faithfulness You have afflicted me (Psa_119:75).
Though He causes grief, yet He will show compassion according to the multitude of His mercies. For He does not afflict willingly, nor grieve the children of men (Lam_3:31-33).
He does not retain His anger forever, because He delights in mercy (Mic_7:18).
Every transgression and disobedience received a just reward (Heb_2:2).
Woe to youyou will receive greater condemnation (Mat_23:14). Greater than what?
It shall be more tolerable for Sodom in the day of judgment than for you (Mat_11:20-24; Luk_10:14). What kind of everlasting punishment would be "more tolerable" than another?
God renders to each according to his deeds (Rom_2:5-6).
He who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality (Col_3:25).
A generic infinite punishment for everyone contradicts all that Scripture declares about God's just and righteous judgments. Statements like, "to each one according to his deeds" and "fracture for fractureeye for eye," fly in the face of infinite punishment. Each punishment fits its crime. God's idea of justice is not different than ours. Yes, His ways are not our ways, but only because He has more mercy than we have, not less! (See Isa_55:7-8). These numerous passages demonstrate what is right for the Judge of all the earth to do in judgment.

This is very good. Indeed God is a Just God and His judgments will cause the inhabitants of the earth to learn righteousness.

timlamb · Jun 26, 2009

threedog said:
Yardstick, you make no sense whatsoever. Hitler had freewill. Freewill is a curse not a blessing. A tool for evil. It is obvious you have not suffered enough at the expense of someone else's evil intentions. Suffering is just an idea!

threedog

The freedom to chose brings out the most incredible evil, but it gives God what He desires, hearts that freely chose Him. People mistake the warnings of hell as a threat. It isn't a threat it is a certainty, it is told to us so we know the results of our choice.

Nadiine · Jun 26, 2009

heavensprings said:
This is very good. Indeed God is a Just God and His judgments will cause the inhabitants of the earth to learn righteousness.

Learning and accepting are 2 different things though.

The demons "learned" about God's righteousness, and rebelled anyway.
Many people who claimed Christianity have left it in dismay
and disenchantment too.
They "knew" and rejected it over time.

Many who hear the gospel of Christ have no interest in Him while God
allows them a freedom of choice.

God is just, and He's allowing man his own decisions to obey
or rebel. Outside of God forcing them to accept Him, the majority
choose not to.
God IS Just - but His justice won't always fit man's desires for what
they consider is just.

Pay close attn. to Romans 1 and the reprobate:
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting

You see God giving people over as He stops working with them
spiritually. I hardly see why God is giving people over to their
depravity then they get saved all of a sudden later -

Genesis 6:3
Then the LORD said, " My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."
Genesis 6:2-4 (in Context) Genesis 6 (Whole Chapter)
Psalm 103:9
He will not always strive with us, Nor will He keep His anger forever.

Remember, salvation is thru FAITH - seeing God at judgment
and knowing as fact that He's God and judgment awaits, ends
all "FAITH", it's become visible, knowable, experienced fact where
fear then takes over awaiting punishment.

This is also why the demonic and angels don't attain salvation -
there is no faith involved for physical, visible, knowable fact when
salvation is by faith.
And altho Christ became visible as man in fleshly form, it still required
faith to believe He was Messiah and would come back and that He
could atone for sin - one still has to repent and live their faith
out in HOPE of their resurrection.

That's GONE when we resurrect and meet God face to face and
await judgment.

timlamb · Jun 26, 2009

timlamb said:
All that scripture and they just close their eyes. Having your head in the sand may feel safer but it doesn't change the truth. You guys totaly ignore post after post of scripture. Sure, you throw out verse after verse of out of context verse that could support your stand but ignore the rest of the bible that defines the true meaning of the scripture you quoted.

I find your concept of tormenting people into submission to get into heaven appaling. You turn the place of weeping and Gnashing of teeth into a gentle rebuke. You make the lake of fire into the refiners fire, you change the bible for some philosophy that gets your unbelieving friend or loved one into heaven, but it is false teaching.

Matthew 24:51
He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:30
And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Somehow I have trouble seeing THIS as part of God's redemptive process!

In the end, all you have are false hopes and philisophical pinings that carry on the dillusion of a god that changes all mens hearts against their wills, or is it changing their wills against their hearts, or changing their hearts and wills against their nature...I don't know, it just isn't right...but you won't listen...

And everyone ignores what they cannot agree with, even scripture:

3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
5And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new " And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
6Then He said to me, "It is done I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
7"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

This is the truth!

timlamb · Jun 26, 2009

threedog said:
Yardstick, you make no sense whatsoever. Hitler had freewill. Freewill is a curse not a blessing. A tool for evil. It is obvious you have not suffered enough at the expense of someone else's evil intentions. Suffering is just an idea!

threedog

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seems right to a man,But its end is the way of death.
Proverbs 16:25
There is a way which seems right to a man,But its end is the way of death.

God says it twice, I think He means it.

Tissue · Jun 26, 2009

Whoa now, Solomon (or whoever) wrote that stuff. Not God. Perhaps God inspired him, but I'd say God inspired PT Anderson's Magnolia as well, but I certainly wouldn't say God made the movie.

Those verses do not, at any rate, really apply or address any issue raised in this topic that I have seen thus far.

Nadiine · Jun 26, 2009

Tissue said:
Whoa now, Solomon (or whoever) wrote that stuff. Not God. Perhaps God inspired him, but I'd say God inspired PT Anderson's Magnolia as well, but I certainly wouldn't say God made the movie.

Those verses do not, at any rate, really apply or address any issue raised in this topic that I have seen thus far.

The Bible is directly inspired by God's Spirit - (not perhaps inspired)
men are the vehicle He spoke thru; just like God spoke thru Moses
verbally and in writing.

This is all thru the Bible; if we're going to say that "God didn't
say that", (just becuz we aren't ascribing to what we consider a
dictaphone approach to writing word for word in a literal sense),
we're just saying that we can't trust the Bible to deliver truth of
God to man - or know God's commands and will for us as
His creation.

Tissue · Jun 26, 2009

Nadiine said:
The Bible is directly inspired by God's Spirit - (not perhaps inspired)
men are the vehicle He spoke thru; just like God spoke thru Moses
verbally and in writing.

I don't believe that.

This is all thru the Bible; if we're going to say that "God didn't
say that", (just becuz we aren't ascribing to what we consider a
dictaphone approach to writing word for word in a literal sense),
we're just saying that we can't trust the Bible to deliver truth of
God to man - or know God's commands and will for us as
His creation.

I don't believe that either. I think we can certainly trust the Bible as a means of explaining things about God to us.

Scripture rocks. But it's not the only thing that is valuable in this Christian walk. I don't think it's got a special kind of inspiration that Charles Wesley didn't have, or Aquinas, or Barth.

timlamb · Jun 26, 2009

Tissue said:
I don't believe that.

I don't believe that either. I think we can certainly trust the Bible as a means of explaining things about God to us.

Scripture rocks. But it's not the only thing that is valuable in this Christian walk. I don't think it's got a special kind of inspiration that Charles Wesley didn't have, or Aquinas, or Barth.

That would explain your confusion.

timlamb · Jun 26, 2009

timlamb said:
All that scripture and they just close their eyes. Having your head in the sand may feel safer but it doesn't change the truth. You guys totaly ignore post after post of scripture. Sure, you throw out verse after verse of out of context verse that could support your stand but ignore the rest of the bible that defines the true meaning of the scripture you quoted.

I find your concept of tormenting people into submission to get into heaven appaling. You turn the place of weeping and Gnashing of teeth into a gentle rebuke. You make the lake of fire into the refiners fire, you change the bible for some philosophy that gets your unbelieving friend or loved one into heaven, but it is false teaching.

Matthew 24:51
He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:30
And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Somehow I have trouble seeing THIS as part of God's redemptive process!

In the end, all you have are false hopes and philisophical pinings that carry on the dillusion of a god that changes all mens hearts against their wills, or is it changing their wills against their hearts, or changing their hearts and wills against their nature...I don't know, it just isn't right...but you won't listen...

Sorry to keep bumping this up but I'm waiting for someone to respond to it.

People on threads like these are good at leapfroging over posts they cannot answer. The begin arguing philosophy rather then scripture and pretty sone they dodged the bullit.

If you don't believe scripture to be the inspired word of God, as Tissue shared, then we don't have much to talk about becasue we know of God's plan and intentions by His word. But if you do believe scripture you need to start reading and discussing the posts so we can understand your interpretation better.

Saying "It isn't fair" is not going to convince me of eternal salvation.

Nadiine · Jun 26, 2009

timlamb said:
That would explain your confusion.

Also, we now have nothing to base spiritual truth on but
GUESSWORK and people's personal preferences and ideals
on God's attributes of love & justice.

Rajni · Jun 26, 2009

timlamb said:
Matthew 24:51
He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:30
And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Somehow I have trouble seeing THIS as part of God's redemptive process!

Weeping and gnashing of teeth happen all the time, and they don't
cancel out repentance. Sometimes weeping and teeth-gnashing can
accompany repentance. Is there anything about the act of weeping
and gnashing one's teeth (I've done both at one time or
another ) that we should assume is unceasing in nature?

.

preistsplace · Jun 26, 2009

Nadiine said:
Learning and accepting are 2 different things though.

The demons "learned" about God's righteousness, and rebelled anyway.
Many people who claimed Christianity have left it in dismay
and disenchantment too.
They "knew" and rejected it over time.

Many who hear the gospel of Christ have no interest in Him while God
allows them a freedom of choice.

God is just, and He's allowing man his own decisions to obey
or rebel. Outside of God forcing them to accept Him, the majority
choose not to.
God IS Just - but His justice won't always fit man's desires for what
they consider is just.

Pay close attn. to Romans 1 and the reprobate:
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting

You see God giving people over as He stops working with them
spiritually. I hardly see why God is giving people over to their
depravity then they get saved all of a sudden later -

Genesis 6:3
Then the LORD said, " My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."
Genesis 6:2-4 (in Context) Genesis 6 (Whole Chapter)

Psalm 103:9
He will not always strive with us, Nor will He keep His anger forever.

Remember, salvation is thru FAITH - seeing God at judgment
and knowing as fact that He's God and judgment awaits, ends
all "FAITH", it's become visible, knowable, experienced fact where
fear then takes over awaiting punishment.

This is also why the demonic and angels don't attain salvation -
there is no faith involved for physical, visible, knowable fact when
salvation is by faith.
And altho Christ became visible as man in fleshly form, it still required
faith to believe He was Messiah and would come back and that He
could atone for sin - one still has to repent and live their faith
out in HOPE of their resurrection.

That's GONE when we resurrect and meet God face to face and
await judgment.

Here is one for you then ....
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Apparently one can have faith by seeing.........And salvation is a gift of God he choses who he wants to save when he wants to save them.....

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