Universalism...why not?

surrender1 · Jun 2, 2017

friend of said:
Universalism is a statement which implies that disobeying God doesn't matter and that there's no difference between good and evil.

You misunderstand universalism. It's about a God who doesn't give up on the broken and/or unrepentant soul even after death. If that soul resisted healing, resisted being made whole, for whatever reason (and there are numerous reasons), then God can choose to continue to work on that broken soul after death. Given enough opportunity and time, that soul will become more and more healed, able to receive, repent, be healed and restored and profess Christ to the glory of God the Father.

faroukfarouk · Jun 2, 2017

surrender1 said:
You misunderstand universalism. It's about a God who doesn't give up on the broken and/or unrepentant soul even after death. If that soul resisted healing, resisted being made whole, for whatever reason (and there are numerous reasons), then God can choose to continue to work on that broken soul after death. Given enough opportunity and time, that soul will become more and more healed, able to receive, repent, be healed and restored and profess Christ to the glory of God the Father.

What about your sins and mine if we pass through death without saving faith? It's wishful to build a theology on the hope that somehow it will work out.

surrender1 · Jun 2, 2017

faroukfarouk said:
You ignore the specific contexts of 'all' and choose to apply them how you want.

I read the bible literally so when it says "all" I read it as "all."

You also teach that you can die in unbelief but then exercise saving faith afterwards.

I don't "teach" that but I do hope that.

It's a theology of wishful thinking, when there is no clear Biblical basis for exercising saving faith after death.

Neither is there clear biblical basis for saying one can't exercise saving faith after death.

The Times · Jun 2, 2017

surrender1 said:
No, it doesn't. Universalism says that God can still work with souls after death and those souls will eventually submit to God willingly.

This is totally opposite to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Universalism is not Godly.

Revelation 2:10 "Be thou faithful unto death and I will give you a crown of life."

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed."

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The race of faith finishes after we die and if one is not saved, then they can not be saved after they die.

As Saint Paul would say....

6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

surrender1 · Jun 2, 2017

The Times said:
This is totally opposite to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Universalism is not Godly.

That literally made me laugh out loud. It's not "godly" to save all people! Oh my! That's says a lot about the person who says it! My goodness!

faroukfarouk · Jun 2, 2017

surrender1 said:
I read the bible literally so when it says "all" I read it as "all."

I don't "teach" that but I do hope that.

Neither is there clear biblical basis for saying one can't exercise saving faith after death.

Wrong that there is no assurance saving faith in this life; read John's First Epistle.

Here's a good 'all' for you: 'God now commandeth all men everywhere to repent'. But you're saying it doesn't really matter if one passes through death without repentance and faith. Why should anyone listen to your theory?

surrender1 · Jun 2, 2017

The Times said:
Revelation 2:10 "Be thou faithful unto death and I will give you a crown of life."

The majority of Revelation was about AD 70.

The race of faith finishes after we die and if one is not saved, then they can not be saved after they die. As Saint Paul would say....
6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

This says absolutely nothing about whether or not souls can be redeemed and restored after death.

GillDouglas · Jun 2, 2017

surrender1 said:
Neither is there clear biblical basis for saying one can't exercise saving faith after death.

Seriously!? You can't just make something up without ANY Scriptural basis and say that it's truth.

Those who did not trust Christ in this life will be separated from God and enter a reality completely devoid of His common grace and blessing. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus speaks of Lazarus as being taken to heaven when he dies but the rich man, because he did not heed the Scriptures, immediately entering into great torment and being excluded from the blessing of heaven (Luke 16:22-26). Scripture speaks often of the painful reality that awaits those who do not place their faith in Christ to be rescued from sin (Matthew 13:30; Matthew 25:41; Luke 12:5; John 3:36; Romans 2:8-9; Hebrews 10:29).

The Times · Jun 2, 2017

surrender1 said:
I don't know what your question means. Please clarify.

When you claimed to be Christian, you entered a conditional contract, called the blood of Jesus Christ.

You became obligated to abide by the conditions of this covenant.

So let me ask you again.....

Do you believe that you are under obligation to the blood covenant of Jesus Christ?

surrender1 · Jun 2, 2017

faroukfarouk said:
Wrong that there is no assurance saving faith in this life; read John's First Epistle.

Here's a good 'all' for you: 'God now commandeth all men everywhere to repent'. But you're saying it doesn't really matter if one passes through death without repentance and faith.

Of course it matters. Just not in the way you think it does.

Why should anyone listen to your theory?

Ha ha! It's not my theory. Loads of Christians are universalists.

faroukfarouk · Jun 2, 2017

surrender1 said:
Ha ha! It's not my theory. Loads of Christians are universalists.

Why should we care? if Scripture clearly teaches that assurance of saving faith can be known now; see the entirety of John's First Epistle.

faroukfarouk · Jun 2, 2017

GillDouglas said:
Seriously!? You can't just make something up without ANY Scriptural basis and say that it's truth.

Those who did not trust Christ in this life will be separated from God and enter a reality completely devoid of His common grace and blessing. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus speaks of Lazarus as being taken to heaven when he dies but the rich man, because he did not heed the Scriptures, immediately entering into great torment and being excluded from the blessing of heaven (Luke 16:22-26). Scripture speaks often of the painful reality that awaits those who do not place their faith in Christ to be rescued from sin (Matthew 13:30; Matthew 25:41; Luke 12:5; John 3:36; Romans 2:8-9; Hebrews 10:29).

Well, exactly.

The Times · Jun 2, 2017

surrender1 said:
I don't know exactly what you mean when you say one is "obligated" to the blood covenant of Jesus. God can work with souls after death and they can willingly come to Christ and profess Christ.

Much like one is obligated to serve out say a 24 month mobile/cell contract, you are obligated by the terms and conditions of the contractual agreement between you and God. The length of contractual is your life span, then after death you are judged on the merits of keeping with the contract.

27Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

The context is.....

16In the case of a will,d it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.

The outcome of your contract with God takes into effect after you sign out with your own blood, meaning you die, then you will be judged for the works of faith done in the body.

After death, there is no soul working, rather judgement comes, for all men are destined to die over then judgement.

The Times · Jun 2, 2017

surrender1 said:
That literally made me laugh out loud. It's not "godly" to save all people! Oh my! That's says a lot about the person who says it! My goodness!

It is not Godly to teach salvation after death, because the entire salvation message is tied to blood, the blood of Jesus Christ.

Once a witness dies, there is nothing more to prove for the works of faith, as then judgement results, much like after person sits for a test and then expects to see their results.

Sitting for a test endlessly until one passes the test, defeats the purpose of the test.

Hebrews writer who is authorised to write on behalf of all the Church in Jerusalems states......

they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Test of faith does not continue after death, rather the results of that test are expected for every individual.

Universalism teachings are unGodly because they detract from the conditions of the blood covenant.

Anything outside of the blood covenant of Jesus Christ is unGodly.

The Times · Jun 2, 2017

surrender1 said:
The majority of Revelation was about AD 70.

Full Preterist lie. Words of Jesus are forever.

surrender1 said:
This says absolutely nothing about whether or not souls can be redeemed and restored after death.

Race after a witness dies is finished. It is finished!

surrender1 · Jun 2, 2017

GillDouglas said:
Seriously!? You can't just make something up without ANY Scriptural basis and say that it's truth.

I'm not making up that God desires all men to be saved. Do you agree?

I'm not making up that God can do what he wants to do. Do you agree?

I'm not making up that given enough time and opportunity, God can persuade/woo a human soul to willingly repent. Do you agree?

What you are taking issue with is that I am asserting that God will do all of these things. And I base my assertion on both scripture and the character of God as revealed in Christ Jesus.

Those who did not trust Christ in this life will be separated from God and enter a reality completely devoid of His common grace and blessing.

The doctrine of ECT is full of holes. Give me a scripture supposedly in support of that flawed doctrine and I will have a valid rebuttal for it.

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus,

Stop right there and read what you just wrote. It's a parable.

Jesus speaks of Lazarus as being taken to heaven

No. He is taken to Abraham's side.

when he dies but the rich man, because he did not heed the Scriptures,

Well, it's not because he didn't profess Christ. It's because he had money and he didn't share it. Greed. So, if you want to take the parable to be talking about what gets you into heaven (which I don't believe the parable is about) then that means what gets you into heaven is not faith but is works--giving to the poor. So, unless you are a works-salvation person, this should make you want to rethink what the parable is really about.

immediately entering into great torment and being excluded from the blessing of heaven (Luke 16:22-26).

Well, the rich man's punishment in hell (Hades) cannot be understood as evidence of "eternal torment" since the dialogue between the rich man and Abraham indicates that the world as it is continues on; the general resurrection and final judgment seen elsewhere in Jesus' eschatology has not occurred yet.

Scripture speaks often of the painful reality that awaits those who do not place their faith in Christ to be rescued from sin (Matthew 13:30; Matthew 25:41; Luke 12:5; John 3:36; Romans 2:8-9; Hebrews 10:29).

Most of Jesus' warnings were to the nation of Israel and the coming national judgment of AD 70.

The Times · Jun 2, 2017

@surrender1
Are you obligated to the blood Covenant of Jesus Christ?

surrender1 · Jun 2, 2017

The Times said:
Full Preterist lie. Words of Jesus are forever.

Is someone on here a full preterist? If so, I never met him/her yet.

Race after a witness dies is finished. It is finished!

Jesus is the one who said it's finished. ;-)

surrender1 · Jun 2, 2017

The Times said:
When you claimed to be Christian, you entered a conditional contract, called the blood of Jesus Christ.

You became obligated to abide by the conditions of this covenant.

Where is the verse that says there is a contract called "the blood of Jesus Christ"?

surrender1 · Jun 2, 2017

faroukfarouk said:
Why should we care? if Scripture clearly teaches that assurance of saving faith can be known now; see the entirety of John's First Epistle.

I guess I'm odd...I care about all people, even the ones who die broken and/or unrepentant.

Universalism...why not?

Which is it?

God doesn't want all men to be saved.

God can't do what he wants to do.

Neither, God will continue to work on unrepentant souls because his love & patience are unending.

Don't know...never thought about this before.

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