Universalism...why not?

Dartman said:

Agreed. I hope we ALSO agree, the remaining judgment Jesus preached, regarding EVERY race, nation, family of the earth ... is still 100% valid.

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Yes, everyone will have to stand before God at some point. This is mentioned in the epistles. For example Hebrews 9:27. But, it is specifically Israel that is subject of negative judgment in the Gospels.

Dartman said:

The "many and few" principle is not exclusive to Israel, it is perhaps even MORE applicable to the other "families of the earth".

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I agree with you that it is not always exclusive to Israel. But in the context of Matthew 8:5-13 it is.

Dartman said:

1 Peter 4:17-18 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

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Yes, as believers we should always humbly welcome chastisement. For God disciplines those he loves.

The Times said:

If we apply the authority of Jesus into our understating of scripture, we can quiet easily see, that there is a separation of sheep and goats happening, that determines the eternal state of that individual in the afterlife.

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Then let us always remain humble in all things, as it appears the goats were punished for self righteousness: a righteousness they thought they were doing for Christ, but really were not.

Matthew 25:44
Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’

Dartman said:

Not according to Scripture.

You are choosing to ignore the "IF" conditions God has REPEATEDLY reminded us about!
John 3:16-21 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

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I don't think someone who believes in universalism would disagree with you on this. There is no mention of hell or eternal punishment in these verses. Those who believe in universalism still believe there is punishment. And those who don't believe in Christ don't have true life, which is very sad to think about. A better verse to use against universalism would be Luke 20:35

claninja said:

I agree with you that it is not always exclusive to Israel. But in the context of Matthew 8:5-13 it is.

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I would agree.

claninja said:

Yes, as believers we should always humbly welcome chastisement. For God disciplines those he loves.

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Again, I agree .... but 1 Peter 4 goes beyond punishment of the righteous, and underscores the ultimate end of those who reject the gospel.... which is the OPPOSITE of "be saved".

claninja said:

I don't think someone who believes in universalism would disagree with you on this. There is no mention of hell or eternal punishment in these verses. Those who believe in universalism still believe there is punishment. And those who don't believe in Christ don't have true life, which is very sad to think about. A better verse to use against universalism would be Luke 20:35

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Luke 20:35 is one of many verses that do a GREAT job of explaining the fate of the wicked. I was providing evidence for a slightly different angle on this discussion.

My purposes for referring to John 3 are;
1) The context is God's love for the world.
2) WITHIN that context, God is ONLY giving life to those that believe.
3) WITHIN that context, those that reject God's gift of His son, do not believe, and are condemned.

Dartman said:

No, "the dominion, authority and power" being discussed are ENEMIES. Notice, death is the LAST enemy that is destroyed, the other enemies include any opposing dominion, authority and power.
1 Cor 15:24-26 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

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The passage says "all" rule, authority & power will be abolished, not just the evil or enemy types of such. Even Christ's rule ends..."For he must reign, till..." (v.25). Is He an "enemy" too? So, again, since such ruling & reigning is not yet ended in Revelation, death has not been abolished (v.26).

BTW the meaning of the Greek word for "put down" (v.24) is:

"Definition: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from."

Strong's Greek: 2673. καταργέω (katargeó) -- to render inoperative, abolish

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Dartman said:

Again, I agree .... but 1 Peter 4 goes beyond punishment of the righteous, and underscores the ultimate end of those who reject the gospel.... which is the OPPOSITE of "be saved".

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That verse isn't looking so good for me, a sinner.

Dartman said:

Not according to Scripture.

You are choosing to ignore the "IF" conditions God has REPEATEDLY reminded us about!
John 3:16-21 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

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There is no "might" in a number of translations, such as, for a couple examples:

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." (Jn.3:17, NIV)

""For God did not send His Son into the world so that He should judge the world, but so that the world SHALL be saved through Him." (Jn.3:17, Analytical Literal Translation)

The word "may" or "might" also occurs here where there is no doubt that God will become "All in all":

"And when all is subjected to him, then the Son shall be subject to him who subjected all things to him, that God might be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:28)

There is likewise no doubt that the world will be saved through Christ.

"If they heard this phrase "God sent rain clouds so that it might rain," they would have taken it to mean that it would definitely rain, and that God sent the cloud to make that happen."

"...Mat 13:35 that it might be fulfilled that was spoken through the prophet, saying, `I will open in similes my mouth, I will utter things having been hidden from the foundation of the world.'

"Just my opinion but the "might's" are pretty much will."

John 3:17 (Might Be?)

Everyone who doesn't believe is condemned (v.18), which includes you & everyone else who was once an unbeliever. Clearly being condemned (or judged) did not keep you or them from being saved. Everyone will believe, either in this life or after. So all will be saved.

The word for perish (Jn.3:16) is used in Scripture for the "lost" sheep & coin that were later found. Also Jesus body that was "destroyed" & raised 3 days later.

Jesus seeks the lost till He finds them:

"8 “Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins[a] and loses one. Doesn’t she light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? 9 And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.’ 10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” (Lk.15:8-10)

The word "eternal" (aionion), transliterated into English as eonian, and the noun eon (Hebrew olam), are often used in Scripture & ancient writings of finite duration, or of an age (future or past) or the world to come.

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

I came across this quote recently from a review of a book by Ilaria Ramelli, namely The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.”

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

On the topic of those verses quoted above (and the inclusion of "might" in some translations)....I agree with ClementofA that even with "might" included, it doesn't cause a problem with me reconciling that with a belief of universal reconciliation. When I read those passages---I see the freedom of our choices....but I don't see an expiration stamp on God's patience and grace.

IOW....I don't interpret "might" to mean "maybe so/maybe not".....I take it more to mean "so it's possible". And....as it's been said a lot of times before, I believe God wins (and will extend mercy until EVERYONE is "found").

In looking closer at one of the "might" verses, John 3:17, not all translations even have the word "might" in the verse, and the Lexicon has no Greek equivalent for "might be" prior to "saved", it just goes straight to "saved" (see the breakdown below). In other words, "might be" was inserted where it really didn't need to be.

ClementofA said:

There is no "might" in a number of translations,

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This discussion misses the point. The context CLEARLY isn't stating "everyone will be saved". By contrast, it is showing that salvation is ONLY for those that believe.

ClementofA said:

Everyone who doesn't believe is condemned (v.18), which includes you & everyone else who was once an unbeliever. Clearly being condemned (or judged) did not keep you or them from being saved. Everyone will believe, either in this life or after. So all will be saved.

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There is no opportunity to believe AFTER this life.
Heb 10:26-31 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

So I think at this point all sides are just repeating themselves, amirite?

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chaela said:

So I think at this point all sides are just repeating themselves, amirite? -

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Dartman said:

This discussion misses the point. The context CLEARLY isn't stating "everyone will be saved". By contrast, it is showing that salvation is ONLY for those that believe. There is no opportunity to believe AFTER this life.
Heb 10:26-31 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

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At the risk of sounding like I'm from the Department of Redundancy Department, much of the fiery judgment talk had to do with the then-impending fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD*. Not everyone was saved ... from that.

However, as has already been shared more than a few times regarding the afterlife, 1 Timothy 4:10 indicates that God is the savior of all, especially (not "exclusively") of believers.

*A lot of this falls more neatly into place if one has preterist leanings going into it, imo.

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chaela said:

At the risk of sounding like I'm from the Department of Redundancy Department, much of the fiery judgment talk had to do with the then-impending fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD*. Not everyone was saved ... from that.

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Very LITTLE of the "fiery judgement" talk has ANYTHING to do with 70AD!!

chaela said:

1 Timothy 4:10 indicates that God is the savior of all, especially (not "exclusively") of believers.-

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One can ONLY maintain the delusion that this text means every human being will eventually be saved, IF you ignore virtually every other passage on the subject.

The Times said:

All I'm saying is enough with this finger pointing, because I believe that most of us are here to dialogue with one another respectfully.

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I really meant to stay out of this and just read from the sidelines, but this post......sheeesh! You, sir, have been anything but respectful to the people in this thread. You have posted insinuations that we love and defend sin, that we "trample the Blood of Christ underfoot," that we deny the Atonement, that we think that all men are going to get a free pass without punishment of any sort.

If you really think what you just posted, then I would say that the ball is in your court when it comes to finger pointing and name calling.

Light of the East said:

I really meant to stay out of this and just read from the sidelines, but this post......sheeesh! You, sir, have been anything but respectful to the people in this thread. You have posted insinuations that we love and defend sin, that we "trample the Blood of Christ underfoot," that we deny the Atonement, that we think that all men are going to get a free pass without punishment of any sort.

If you really think what you just posted, then I would say that the ball is in your court when it comes to finger pointing and name calling.

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Enough of this! I really mean it, you are now being very rude!

By the Grace of God the ideology of Universalism will be destroyed by the breath of the Lord's mouth.

surrender1 said:

If my child became a wayward soul, as any loving parent I would do everything I could to woo him back to a healthy and restorative place. I would never give up on him. I would put no time limits on my love and patience towards him.

If our Father desires all men to be saved, why can't he continue to work on their souls postmortem? If he wanted to, couldn't he do it? Can't God do what he wants to do? I think he can do what he wants to do.

So, if God desires all men to be saved and if God can do what he wants to do, he wouldn't put a time limit (i.e. upon death) on his love and patience towards us.

So, if God's love and patience run out on a soul upon death, either God doesn't want all men to be saved or God can't do what he wants to do. Which is it?

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the bible teaches in the end hades (and death and the sea) will give up their dead and they are judged based on their deads. If not found in the book of life they are then thrown into the lake of fire, along with Death and Hades, this is called the second death. After this a new Heaven and new Earth are ushered in and the old Heaven and old Earth pass away.

The text (Rev 20-21) suggests that some are found in the book of life and not all are thrown into the lake of fire (these dead are not the redeemed) It would be in this judgment that seems to given the final determination to be either a second chance or second death. It isn't clear if the passing away of the old heaven/earth includes this lake of fire but an argument could certainly be made for that.

There is no indication that one can be saved once in the lake of fire and since both Death and Hades are also thrown in it suggests a permanent place (as we don't expect Death and Hades to come out). The lake of fire could be describe as annihilation or the passing away of heaven/earth describe as annihilation but the text just doesn't is not specific in that way.