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Universalism...why not?

Which is it?

  • God doesn't want all men to be saved.

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • God can't do what he wants to do.

    Votes: 2 4.1%
  • Neither, God will continue to work on unrepentant souls because his love & patience are unending.

    Votes: 40 81.6%
  • Don't know...never thought about this before.

    Votes: 3 6.1%

  • Total voters
    49

Dartman

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Here the punishment of those who've rejected the Lord is said to be worse than death under Moses law, which included stoning. Stoning to death is not much of a punishment. People suffered far worse fates on the racks of the Medieval Inquisitionists.
The fact that there are degrees of punishment (many stripes, few stripes Luke 12:47,48) does NOT support NO 2nd DEATH!
The fact that there are MANY, MANY texts that specifically state the DESTRUCTION of the wicked, clearly describes 2nd death.
The fact that John CALLS it SECOND death, firmly establishes DEATH as the ultimate "reward" of the wicked "many".
The fact that Jesus stated the broad path leads to destruction, and MANY find it, and the straight/narrow path leads to life, and FEW find it, firmly establishes God's intent for His children that CHOOSE to love and obey Him, to inherit His renewed planet earth, as His eternal dwelling place.
The Scriptures do not support torments in fire for all eternity. The Scriptures DO support torments in fire UNTIL "destruction", "ashes", "burned up", etc. .... are accomplished, AND that the shame, contempt and destruction are eternal. The punishment of NO LIFE lasts forever.

But .....

BEFORE 2nd death; the Scriptures DO support "every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess", which proves EVERYONE will be granted clarity @ the time of judgement.

An accurate confession requires an accurate comprehension of error.

Imagine a truly wicked person recognizing GOD'S perspective of their sins! And, perhaps, truly empathizing with those they have hurt! THIS will make the punishment perfectly scaled to the crime. Remember, the wicked are already "weeping, and gnashing teeth" BEFORE they are thrown in the lake of fire!
 
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ClementofA

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Destruction can refer to loss of well being or death. Neither need be an eternal death or eternal annihilation. In fact, since death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28), so also will the death called 2nd death in the lake of fire. That's the only way God can become "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) of those who were "in Adam" (v.22).

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Rajni

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Unless there is another creator out there, anything that exists has its origin in God. He is quoted point blank as saying He creates evil. I've seen more than once the attempts to explain it away, yet there it is.

If Adam was perfect, he wouldn't have failed.

And if we all can be guilty of something done by one person eons ago, we can all be justified by something done by one person eons ago, especially if that latter person is basically God Himself. (Matthew 19:25-26) I don't see Adam's influence as being more powerful than God's; that would definitely feel heretical to me, and I'm considered a heretic already.

I've heard this explanation before, and it doesn't add up. If God is truly so offended by sin that He would have someone tormented or annihilated for it, He was well within His rights to simply refrain from creating that person to begin with, because He would have seen where they'd end up anyway. "Better that they had never been born" and all that.

No, what I think this explanation does is put sin on a pedestal. It suggests that our sin is so wonderfully big and powerful that even God Himself can't do any more to remedy it than toss the containers thereof into the incinerator for eternity.

Meanwhile, at the same time, it's said that Jesus took away the sin of the world through his death on the cross, and that he took on the punishment for it on the cross. Partialism presents things as though this never even happened, amounting to more religious doublethink / doublespeak.

Either hell is not a real concern (meaning the ECT version of it) or Jesus didn't really do what he's been said to have done with regards to dealing once and for all with sin, in which case, yeah, hell would be a real concern.

Where in Scripture does it say, or even hint to, that whoever through sin and rebellion rejects God's grace, namely Jesus Christ, will have life?
If it can happen to Paul, it can happen to anyone.


-
 
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Der Alte

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. . . Such as the fable or myth of endless torments of the Dark & Middle ages, Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of "heretics", etc.
In contrast to the fables & myths of endless torments, Paul says again to Timothy:

...
You keep repeating this unsupported stuff about "the fable or myth of endless torments of the Dark & Middle ages, Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of 'heretics'", etc. When I have shown you from irrefutable Jewish historical sources which, while you have railed against them, you have not and cannot refute.
.....Hundreds of years before the dark/middle ages etc. among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of fiery unending punishment which they called both Gehinnom and sheol. When Jesus taught about eternal punishment, hades[sheol] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, etc. that gave support to the existing Jewish belief in hell. Jesus did not teach universalism or annihilationism.
See my link:[post #212], this thread. Never disproved or refuted.
 
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JacksBratt

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I didn't think I presented it as a "competition". I didn't intend to.

My post was just to present two scenarios..... Two choices. All I was expecting was an answer of a choice as to which is truth.


This sounds like a great program and, obviously, it is working.

However, you cannot compare the people in this program with the sinner at his or her judgement at Christs feet.

If the situation paralleled that which is offered by Christ, these hardened gang members would be instantly forgiven for any acts they did and they would desire to change to non violent, caring, serving people. This, of course, would have to be following an obvious and observable humbleness and shame for their present state.

All in all, you could compare the gang members in the presented program to this...

They are offered the program, they just have to show that they have the desire to change and accept that their present attitude is toxic to them..... If the don't accept this....then they don't get into the program. They cannot wait until their fellow gang members have followed it and had success......and then say "ya, I want to have what they have".... too late.

This is, mostly in regards to all of those who never even had a chance at knowing about Christ. Living on Islands, living before Calvary... etc. Not the people of today that have the entire bible and other texts.

As for the ones face to face with Jesus....
They were blind to who Christ was. They still wait for their Messiah. They did not know what they were doing. Even some of the disciples didn't "get it" until they saw the risen Lord....

They wrote about it. We are without excuse. Especially if you have enough knowledge to argue at the level that you are on this forum... try saying that you are without excuse....

However, they will still have enough of a life and have life experiences, observances and attitudes for God to judge them in whatever way He knows to be righteous and just..

In the end..None will be without excuse"... there is no way around it. Every human will have enough for God to Judge them.
 
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Der Alte

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This is known as proof texting, taking verses from different places in the Bible jamming them together irrespective of their individual context and treating them as if they are one continuous narrative. Please show me which one of these verses show that Mal 4:1-3 occurs in paradise and the saints will be trampling the ashes of the unrighteous throughout eternity?
 
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Der Alte

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These are specious arguments, not evidence. People who are being stoned are not dead yet, people drowning are not dead yet and any other example you want to use. Dead is dead and the four vss. I listed all say that there is a a punishment that is worse than death, it does not matter how they died. And none of the vss. say that after some period of punishment, which is worse than death, they will be reconciled to God.
.....You are reading the NT with a universalist presupposition, thinking of ways you can manipulate the scriptures to support your presuppositions. How did the early gentile Christians, many of whom were former pagan gentiles, understand the passages I quoted?
 
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mkgal1

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I didn't think I presented it as a "competition". I didn't intend to.

My post was just to present two scenarios..... Two choices. All I was expecting was an answer of a choice as to which is truth.
This is how you presented it:




......and my point has been that *eventually* God's "scourges of love" (as the Greek Orthodox put it) will not fail, so there doesn't have to be a choice between A or B (love never fails).

Maybe your understanding of "God's judgement" is off. Personally, I believe it's very much parallel to this program. I also agree on the criteria you presented (contrite heart and obvious humility and a desire to change). Fortunately.....God can read hearts and motivations.

What's sad to me is that it's pretty rare for this group of people (and others like them) to experience the genuine expression of love that Father Greg Boyle shows them. If it were more common---maybe there would be more like them accepting God in this life (instead---they often get nothing but judgement and the message that their lives just aren't worth "saving").

My understanding of that text (recording Jesus words on the cross, "Father forgive them....they know not what they do") was towards the Roman empire and Pilate for murdering Him (and everyone involved in that decision). You believe it's a general plea for those that never had a chance at knowing about Him?

Are you saying that the ones that were blind to the Truth (the ones that came face-to-face with Him) ....in your belief.....still get a pass for ignorance? If so.....what about all the people that have been presented with a false Gospel---one that's brought a great deal of pain to them personally?

For an example: What about those that have been told things like, "prayer changes things.....God answers the prayers of His faithful believers.....just believe and He will answer the desires of your heart as long as they line up with His will"? Suppose that person then has a loved one that's stricken with a sudden illness....and they and their family and friends pray....and their loved one---a very kind and compassionate person, that does nothing but good for others---dies...? There are many people that have been turned away from God because of false presentations of Him. Do you believe it's just that they aren't given a chance to decide based on His real character?
 
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mkgal1

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This is what I believe about those words, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".....


 
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JacksBratt

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This is how you presented it:

......and my point has been that *eventually* God's "scourges of love" (as the Greek Orthodox put it) will not fail, so there doesn't have to be a choice between A or B (love never fails).

And, it never will. He will always love you...as a sinner before salvation, as a sinner after salvation, as a convicted and sentenced sinner on their way to hell.

God cannot just announce, at the great judgement..."well, I am God and my love never fails, what the heck.........your all saved... how's that"?





Really, what the argument here is... broken down and in it's most raw form... we both understand that God is love, is merciful, Jesus is the way truth and life, Jesus is our savior....all have the ability to be saved..

Right?

So twins a birth, one gets saved at the age of 20, the other dies but repents at the feet of Christ after his death....

My question is......where is the faith in repenting at Christs feet? Where is the faith if you are looking up at your savior?

Ephesians 2:8King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:



1 Peter 1:9
obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.


John 8:24
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."


Mark 16:16
"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.


John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.



This last one is very important.... Note that it states "out of death" into life..

Not "after death".

Anyway, as these threads stretch out, people drop by the side and leave the people who are solidly on one side or the other

So it is with this thread... so... God Bless, see you in another.
 
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mkgal1

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God cannot just announce, at the great judgement..."well, I am God and my love never fails, what the heck.........your all saved... how's that"?
That's not what I believe ("what the heck.....you're all saved!"). Not like that--more like, "He is SAVING all of us". I believe reconciliation is a process--not an event. Some probably have a bit more "baggage" to deal with....and I believe God WILL love them through it (and I don't mean in a "that's okay......I know you had a difficult life....it's permissible with an excuse like that for you to murder a few 100 people" kind of way.) I believe we cannot even conceive of what His perfect love will be like.....away from a world that praises and encourages power and oppression and consumption of the weak and needy. If there's no reward for fame and power in His system---and it's the meek and humble that "inherit the world"--can you see how people may respond a bit differently?

Have you never met someone, personally, that's willing to destroy the lives of their family members (who they *claimed* they "love very dearly") for financial gain and material things?
 
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mkgal1

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That's why I said earlier it's not a competition.

I don't believe that God is concerned with the "when" or on what time schedule we come to repentance (and that's another thing---I believe "repenting" is a continual action....that we will be "repenting" until He perfects us). I believe He's concerned with the end result (and believe He WILL get what He desires---*without* imposing on any one's free will).
 
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mkgal1

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@JacksBratt .....you have me thinking more about "we live by faith and not by sight"---and MAYBE what that means is that we're not looking at how things are right now---but, instead, are believing with hope that God WILL restore and reconcile all to Him (as the Bible says). That--even though we can see horrible evil in this world, that we believe He will wipe away every tear--that the system will be reversed with the last as first and first as last.
 
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Silmarien

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Haha, yes, I have a "take no prisoners" existentialist approach to life, the universe, and everything. It made me a cultured despiser of religion, but ultimately left me wide open to a flank attack by those Russian Orthodox intellectuals.

It's... difficult, though. I know all the tricks in the skeptic's handbook, so it's very much a "three steps forward, two steps back" sort of journey, stumbling and tripping over dogma as I go. (Amusingly, I just recently realized that Trinitarianism actually makes more sense philosophically than any other religion out there, which will hopefully stabilize me a bit.)

What aesthetics are involved for you?


I picked up the Bible seriously for the first time six months ago, so I'm really not at the point where I can have a biblically based debate on this particular topic. I have seen it argued that most of the passages about judgment were actually referring more specifically to the conflict with Rome, and I know just enough about the way the Jewish Prophets operated to wonder whether these passages are to be taken completely at face value or if they were specifically directed at that particular culture. Would Jesus address a modern audience somewhat differently? Almost certainly.

That said, there are ideas I find very difficult when removed from the realm of theology and applied to reality. Exclusivism, for one. I think everyone is guilty of idolatry to one degree or another--it's impossible not to put your own spin on Scripture. If everyone has their own personal interpretation of Jesus, whose faith is saving and whose is not? How much doubt shoves you back into the nonbeliever category? I don't think the Gospel is very good news at all if you need to be a saint to qualify, and correct belief is an impossible standard when everyone is wrong. I'm not convinced that Calvinists and Eastern Orthodox are even worshipping the same God, which begs a very serious question even without bringing in people who toss out half the dogma entirely and other religions.

Now, I don't view hell as punitive. This is due to personal experience--I've spent a lot of time in pretty serious intellectual rebellion, and it's effectively been spiritual suicide. I've seen the Orthodox talk about being able to get a taste while still alive of what hell actually is, and I would definitely agree. I think it's a matter of self-destruction, not punishment, so I'd say that the warnings in the Gospels are very relevant, but that our approach to the concept of judgment is probably off-base. This really colors the way I look at Scripture, though, since it's hard to put much weight in Reformed theology when your own "conviction of sin" plays out in a way that's exclusively consistent with the way the East approaches the subject.

As far as Universalism goes... if I had to throw in with anyone, it'd probably be C.S. Lewis and N.T. Wright's pseudo-Annihilationistic approach (i.e., becoming less human until there's eventually not much of anything left), but I'm interested in what the best of the Universalists have to say too. I'm skeptical of the strong claim that everyone will eventually be reconciliated, but I think it takes drawing some arbitrary lines to say that there are specific points at which someone becomes too far gone.
 
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ClementofA

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Hebrews speaks of those who reject Christ as deserving a "sorer" punishment than death by Moses' law, i.e. stoning:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very "sore" or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would suffer endless torments in fire, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is a sadist for all eternity.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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JacksBratt

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Well, the way I see it.....
As soon as you die, faith is gone like hot dogs at a boy scout Barbecue.... It can no longer be found or exist..... It's a concept that only exists when you are unsure about something.

When you die........You will "know" and when you "know" there is no existence of "faith".

Therefore, His saving grace can no longer come through faith.

As an aside, once you are saved by His grace, through faith... you will begin to see things, experience things that turn the faith that saved you, into knowledge. However, the faith came first, then the salvation, then the knowledge...

Not knowledge then salvation.
 
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Dartman

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Destruction can refer to loss of well being or death. Neither need be an eternal death or eternal annihilation.
The universalist position illustrates one of the fatal risks of failing to harmonize ALL scripture. Throughout Scripture the fate of the wicked is described in MANY ways; ashes, not be, not found, dead, destroyed, burned up, left neither root nor branch, put to silence in darkness, NOT justified, consumed, in smoke shall they consume away, etc.
On the other hand, there isn't one single sermon, ANYWHERE in the Scriptures, describing the universalist's position!
ClementofA said:
In fact, since death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28), so also will the death called 2nd death in the lake of fire. That's the only way God can become "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) of those who were "in Adam" (v.22)
You're interpretation of the passage isn't supported BY the passage.

The primary topic of the chapter is resurrection.


1 Cor 15:20-28 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

Jesus is the VERY FIRST human being to die, and be resurrected to immortality.

21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at his coming,

This is discussing the sequence of Christ's resurrection, about 34AD, and "those who are Christs at his coming"... which is still future to us. This passage matches 1 Thess 4:13-18, John 5:28,29a and Rev 20:4-6, the first resurrection.

24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

THIS is discussing the second resurrection, (which Jesus called "the resurrection of damnation" in John 5:29b), AND the transfer of direct rule, from Jesus to his God and Father. It is this transfer of authority, with Jesus demonstrating subjection to his God, that is "the only way God can become all in all".

27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to him, so that God may be all in all.
 
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Dartman

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No, this is what is known as "comparing spiritual things with spiritual". It is what is known as harmonizing ALL the Scriptures, or "rightly dividing the word of truth".

Universalist theories cannot provide this kind of Scriptural background. Every universalist argument I have encountered STARTS with human rationalization, it NEVER starts with an entire passage of Scripture in context.

Der Alter said:
Please show me which one of these verses show that Mal 4:1-3 occurs in paradise
and the saints will be trampling the ashes of the unrighteous throughout eternity?
NEITHER of your points in red reflect my post.
 
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mkgal1

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It also doesn't say, "prior to your physical death" or any other clarifier.

God told Adam and Eve "you will truly die" if they ate the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Did they drop dead once they ate the fruit? Also...we're told (in Scripture) that He gives us victory over sin and death....yet people are still dying physically. So....if I'm understanding your point.....I don't see physical death to mean much in God's economy.


Anyway, as these threads stretch out, people drop by the side and leave the people who are solidly on one side or the other

So it is with this thread... so... God Bless, see you in another.
God bless you as well.
 
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ClementofA

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I'm quite familiar with all the Bible verses annihilationists claim supports their position. Yet i, and many others, see universalism as Scriptural. Of course many others hold to neither of those two positions. What annihilationist denomination, if any, is yours:

"Some Christian denominations which are annihilationist were influenced by the Millerite/Adventist movement of the mid-19th century. These include the Seventh-day Adventists, Bible Students, Christadelphians and the various Advent Christian churches. Additionally, the Church of England's Doctrine Commission reported in 1995 that "[h]ell is not eternal torment", but "non-being". Some Protestant and Anglican writers have also proposed annihilationist doctrines. (emphasis mine)"

"Later in the article it cites Jehovah's Witnesses (see this question) and the followers of Herbert Armstrong as other examples"

What denominations subscribe to or accommodate the Annihiliationist doctrine of hell?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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