Universalism...why not?

chaela said:

It depends on what the reader wants to see; the bible-as-mirror dynamic. This is why I hesitate to say things like "the bible clearly sez..." because what that really means is "This is what I believe the bible clearly sez..." I mean, obviously I believe the bible supports universalism, that's not newsworthy. But I'm not about to say that the bible clearly supports it because if it did, everyone would see that, and there would be no debate.

Back to the point: You're right; the English word "hell" is used as a substitute for more specific (and different) things such as Gehenna (the garbage dump outside Jerusalem, parts of which nowadays looks like a perfect picnic-spot), Sheol (simply, the grave), Hades, and Tartarus (the latter two originating in Greek mythology, from what I understand).


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The Word of God is a sharp, two-edged sword that both softens and hardens hearts, comforts and afflicts the weary, saves and damns sinners. To understand and teach the Divine Wrath of God is to place the black velvet backdrop that causes the diamond of God's mercy to shine brighter than a million suns. In preaching wrath, we most brilliantly showcase the gracious mercy towards sinners. Addressing the wrath of God is not optional for the faithful, it is divinely mandated.

The Times said:

You see friend, it isn't about having a good answer that is socially accepted by your peers. I certainly would not rely on your answer, let alone on those of my own house hold.

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I agree, it's about having an answer that not only is supported by scripture but also is consistent with the ways of God's heart.

I believe that my reverend fear of him is not separable from the blissful love I have for him. In fact my life experience is chastisement after chastisement of ridicule, rebuke, rejection, sickness, struggle, where the victories that I have had in overcoming every single one of them has made me love him more than I would love anyone in this life, including myself.

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Welcome to the world. But you can't make wine by loving the juice out of a grape.

But the bottom line is, not one of your descriptors above even come close to the definition required of chastisement/scourging/flogging. A beating which people sometimes even died from. But in Jesus' case, He was beaten and bloodied so much He only lasted a couple hours on the cross. But if God is going to 'Chastize/scourge' any of US it will only take place because God's has instituted laws into this universe which are applicable to ALL. And, in the eyes of God, you don't ever really 'break them'....they 'break you'. And if you don't break, then you don't achieve 'mature/perfect/manifested sonship', on this side of glory. If you think that makes him this mean, vindictive, thunderbolt enraged God on a throne, you don't understand God raising ALL his offspring from the perspective of His ultimate goal of timelessness, at the end of the ages.

My reverend fear is solely vested in him, relying on him to complete me. The fear of incompletion is the measure by which I see my love for him growing and deepening day by day, this transcends my being, to the point I fear him, because I count myself as an obstacle to him and an enemy that must be crushed and defeated under his feet. Being prepared to be crushed by God is not knew to me, I see it imperative to him completing me, where there are no traces of me, but of his son that he is well pleased of.

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Your saddest 'love relationship' paragraph yet, for me to read. I truly do feel sorry for you. It truly describes the kind of heart from which your theology derives IMO.

My love relationship with Him doesn't sound like yours. Yours sounds like being lovingly raped by God? Sort of a purposeful being beat into submission. It brings to my mind the obedience of the 'battered wife syndrome'.

Scripture said I never overcame anything, in my strength/ability. But "I can do all things through Christ in me." And that is not by the 'grace' of undeserved favor', as defined by the nominal church. But it is accomplished by the biblically defined 'grace which empowers one' to accomplish what God's truth demands. And he only gives such grace to he who is humble in personal convictions from God's Spirit. "For God gives grace to THE HUMBLE so therefore HUMBLE YOURSELF." And that 'sin conviction' which the Holy Spirit convicts you of, is something that God wants to NOW deal with, in His patient pealing off, of the onion skins issues of my life. Issues of sin, rebellion, wickedness which He deals with because He loves ME. And wants the best for Me as well as for ALL....ultimately.

As for me, Jesus is my pattern Son, of the Father who has forgiven, called, drawn, chosen me. He also then gave me the faith to believe, because I was ordained to believe. I'm just humbled that he chose me in this age in order that I might attain 'especially those that believe' salvation, which is defined as being a salvation of a greater degree. And that 'greater degree' salvation is one with a 'first fruits' potential.

My motto is to prepare to be crushed by the Lord and to be brought before his feet as a broken and contrite heart. Fear and perfect love is realised after I die and he lives in me for all eternity. Amen!

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And my motto is to Love Him as He first loved me and everybody else. And don't break any of His universal laws which release fearful judgments upon all, be they sinner or saint. And WHO is going to afflict you with those crushing chastisment judgments you say you love? The same one appointed by God for Job to be his , robber, killer, destroyer." I love another.

To me, your position sounds like one based upon 'knowing His acts' but not 'His ways'.

Dartman said:

the only human who has ever, and will ever, spend time in Heaven, is Jesus. And, he's coming back.
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Matt 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

1 thess 4:16,17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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This was in reference to annihilation vs. eternal condemnation, not the location. The wicked will endure never-ending torment in the lake of fire and be shut out of the Holy City, which is the joyous dwelling place of God and His people forever.

GillDouglas said:

The Word of God is a sharp, two-edged sword that both softens and hardens hearts, comforts and afflicts the weary, saves and damns sinners. To understand and teach the Divine Wrath of God is to place the black velvet backdrop that causes the diamond of God's mercy to shine brighter than a million suns. In preaching wrath, we most brilliantly showcase the gracious mercy towards sinners. Addressing the wrath of God is not optional for the faithful, it is divinely mandated.

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Even though I'm not on board with the endless torment aspect of the subject, I do like how you worded the bolded part.

JacksBratt said:

You are right. Our righteous acts are described, in the Biblical Scripture, as filthy rags. Thanks... So our sinful acts must be even more unattractive. Nice of you to clear that up.

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It's not genuinely righteous acts that are called "filthy rags" in the Bible.....it's acts that are based on a false piety (which ARE sinful). That's an affront to God. It's prideful and self-righteous. Self-righteousness is on the opposite side of a contrite heart (in my experience....it's worse than a overtly sinful person).

JacksBratt said:

So, who desires a "genuine relationship with Him"?
A/ the guy waiting to see what happens and gets salvation only after death and realizing the truth first hand. OR

B/ The guy, in this world, accepting Christ and humbling themselves before Christ striving to walk as Christ taught, ................... even before firsthand knowledge of the truth....but by faith alone?

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I don't think it's a competition. As the Bible says.....God goes after those lost sheep. And...referring back to the Prodigal son, the older son, even though he was following all the household rules never seemed to have a genuine relationship based on love with his father.

JacksBratt said:

This has nothing to do with God's character. Why do people always place this on Him?

No, this is ALL about OUR character, OUR attitude, OUR heart and OUR desire to be like Him.

The only people that become more dishonest and more resentful, due to punishment........in my experience, are those who fail to accept ownership for their actions, fail to accept that what they did was wrong, Fail to accept that it was their choice..and Failure to change their heart.....

No, these people feel that the system is not fair, they don't deserve this and they should have been dealt with differently...
Not those who say "wow, I was out of line, this is MY fault, My actions" then, humble their heart and take their just punishment.

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I think you're misunderstanding what I wrote. There's fruit of every system (some is good/some is bad). Way back in this thread I shared a video of a program that Father Greg Boyle started that reforms hardened gang members in L.A. California. The "fruit" of this program is amazing (to me). These people don't just learn how to "obey the rules".....their whole mindset is changed (and their mindset prior was often based on very complex circumstances). A lot of them experienced genuine love and a true sense of belonging for the first time (still....with rules, of course). I'd love for you to take the time to watch this and try to notice the difference between this program and a typical "follow the rules" program. I think the results are like night and day. That's what I meant by a system of pain and punishment not lining up with God's character. Something Greg Boyle says in the video, "if you don't transform your pain, you continue to transmit it". Another thing I hear from the people that went through this program as well as others is that they felt no one was listening and understanding them--they say they "had no voice". That creates a lack of sense of humanity.....a "lethal lack of hope" (also from Fr Greg). Hope needs to be restored.....a sense of humanity needs to be restored....in order for people to be able to care about others they have to care about themselves (and that takes others caring about them FIRST).

If you want a shorter version--you can begin 3 minutes in (that's the bulk of it there):

If you're a dog lover....there's this program, too (this one you can shorten by viewing from :40 minutes in):

JacksBratt said:

Yes, Jesus said "for they know not what they do"

However, we are fully aware of what we are doing...... if we deny Christ.

substitutionary atonement..................that IS the entire gospel message.

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Wait a minute! Why are you allowing them a pass for ignorance? Weren't they face to face with God Himself (in Jesus)? Weren't they able to hear His sermons first-hand? Certainly they heard all the buzz about what He was teaching. How is that not denying Him and rejecting Him?

Albion said:

There's a lot of truth in that overview, but most historians will tell you that to live under a set of laws was one of Rome's greatest contributions to civilization. We ought to be more cognizant of that fact and less inclined to assume that, in the absence of law, we'd all be living in some peaceful and prosperous Utopia of mutual cooperation.

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Who said anything about the "absence of law"?

Has anyone been watching the Handmaid's Tale? The way I see it---that system they have going on in Gilead may be a lot like (in general) the system of Ancient Rome, where there's an overblown sense of the law that's punished physically. A system like that is oppressive. People lose their personal agency---their voice---their ability to express themselves.

Restorative justice is about allowing people to become the "best of them selves" (cliche', I know). Their creativity...their talents.....their opinions all have a place. Their individuality is celebrated.

mkgal1 said:

Who said anything about the "absence of law"?

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If having a system of Laws is denigrated, it seems logical to think that NOT having to deal with such a system is preferred by the speaker. No?

Albion said:

If having a system of Laws is denigrated, it seems logical to think that NOT having to deal with such a system is preferred by the speaker. No?

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What was denigrated was an "overblown interest in the Law" and emphasis on punishment.

An example of that (somewhat) would be a system like this, from a school house in the U.S in the 1800's. I don't know if it's visible.....but that column on the right is how many lashes a student gets for each infraction.

This is a "transactional" system (you do that---you get this in return).


......but there's another system: "transformative"...the contrast is described here:

Today No Every day's FB page said:

I recently came upon this description of the Wizard of Oz in author Joe Ehrmann’s book, InSideOut Coaching: How Sports Can Transform Lives. Ehrmann uses the story of Dorothy’s adventure as an example of transformational versus transactional coaching. Like too many coaches, the wizard defined his role with power and authority. He feared people getting too close and discovering who he really was. He built a power structure where he alone was at the top. Every day the wizard hid in a tower with a bullhorn and barked out orders. He demanded….others did….that is transactional leadership! Dorothy, on the other hand, weaves a team into a web of authentic relationships, compassionate interaction, and common goals. Coach Dorothy assumes the fundamental responsibilities of every transformative coach. First, she builds authentic relationships with her players that allow her to understand their deepest fears, needs, and longings. She then creates a caring community based on self-esteem and mutual support. Finally, she tries to help each player reach his fullest potential.

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mkgal1 said:

What was denigrated was an "overblown interest in the Law" and emphasis on punishment.

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That is worth some consideration.

An example of that (somewhat) would be a system like this, from a school house in the U.S in the 1800's. I don't know if it's visible.....but that column on the right is how many lashes a student gets for each infraction.

This is a "transactional" system (you do that---you get this in return).

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To think of a system of laws as nothing but a list of punishments is a gross misunderstanding.

Albion said:

To think of a system of laws as nothing but a list of punishments is a gross misunderstanding.

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That seems to me to be what lot of people are describing. And we're speaking of the Ancient Roman system of laws (and contrasted to the Greek restorative system).....not a system of laws in general. Also.....again....of course we have to have laws---the problem is an overblown interest in laws with an emphasis on punishment.

You're welcome to elaborate, though

mkgal1 said:

That seems to me to be what lot of people are describing. And we're speaking of the Ancient Roman system of laws.....not a system of laws in general.

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And so was I...until subsequent replies muddied the water.

You're welcome to elaborate, though

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As you say, the point was about the Roman system. I replied to a comment that made it seem that the Roman system of Laws was just a way to oppress people. That poster chose to describe the Roman people's belief in the rule of Law as "overblown." It was his opinion, that's all.

In reality, historians are agreed that that system was one of Rome's great contributions to civilization and a reason for her longevity. I didn't anticipate that making a simple point like that would cause such consternation, I think it's safe to say.

Albion said:

In reality, historians are agreed that that system was one of Rome's great contributions to civilization. I didn't think that making a simple point like that would cause such consternation, however.

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Well....I would have to read the points of these historians that assert that this system of law was one of Rome's greatest contributions to civilization.

The reason why your post caused consternation with me, though, was that you implied what was being suggested was a system sans laws altogether. An "anything goes....it's okay, no worries" kind of society (which has been a common misrepresentation all throughout this thread).

ETA: Your post

Albion said:

We ought to be more cognizant of that fact and less inclined to assume that, in the absence of law, we'd all be living in some peaceful and prosperous Utopia of mutual cooperation.

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.....that's not what's being contrasted to Rome's system.

mkgal1 said:

Well....I would have to read the points of these historians that assert that this system of law was one of Rome's greatest contributions to civilization.

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Best wishes on your studies.

Albion said:

Looks like someone has the wrong idea of what "total depravity" means (even though "Gill's" post seemed to cover it adequately).

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There is no such thing.

Period.

Even if I don't meet your expectations in opposing it.

It is

BUNKUM.

GillDouglas said:

'Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented.' (Matthew 3:13-15)

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How does any of this disprove what I posted? Way to utterly dodge the Scriptures, dude!

Dartman said:

It's accepting the actual statements of Scripture .... which I admit, is rare.

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You mean like you denying that the Eucharist is the very Body and Blood of our Lord, as Jesus said and make quite clear in the Scriptures? ("This IS my Body...")

Perhaps you should clean up your own theological house first before accusing others!

Dartman said:

All KINDS of errors were preached, and still are.

This is why the apostles were SO insistent that SCRIPTURE be relied upon, rather than the speculations and rationalizations relied upon by Universal Salvation theorists.

2 Tim 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. 16 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene.


2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

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Uhhhhhhhhhhhh......they didn't HAVE any Scriptures with which to guide the New Covenant Church. Just the Old Covenant writings. The canon was not closed for another 400 years!

Light of the East said:

There is no such thing.

Period..

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That reply pretty much confirms it, wouldn't you agree? For example, I know what Papal Infallibility and Transubstantiation mean, even though I don't agree that they're real.

GillDouglas said:

I disagree. If you limit the duration of time spent in Hell, you must then limit the duration in Heaven.

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THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.
THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.
THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.
THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.

I wonder if that is enough to get your attention?

There
is
no
hell.

Jesus never spoke of it. The Jews knew of no such place.

When we die, we go to be immediate into His presence to be judged by the presence of Truth. He is the Truth, and His very presence will judge us and all of our actions. The wicked will find the fire of His love intolerable, a burning fire which torments them. They will hate being in His presence.

The righteous, those who have become like Him, will find that the fire of His love is warm, refreshing, and most importantly, cleansing of all remaining stain in them so that they can enter into complete union with Him.

This is the afterlife, not some nonsensical place called "hell" made up by Latin theologians who didn't know Greek and didn't care that they didn't know Greek. Christ's death as emptied Sheol, redeemed the just, and plundered the household of the evil one, taking back all souls because all things belong to God alone and not the Usurper.

GillDouglas said:

This was in reference to annihilation vs. eternal condemnation, not the location. The wicked will endure never-ending torment in the lake of fire and be shut out of the Holy City, which is the joyous dwelling place of God and His people forever.

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Nope, God brings to a compete end all suffering and death.
1 Cor 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Rev 20:14-21:5 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And He that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Mal 4:1-3
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith Jehovah of hosts.

2 Peter 3:12-14 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.