Universalism VS. Scripture

Scholar in training · Oct 6, 2005

Charlie V said:
Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord.

I already know what you'll say next, "Even the demons confess Jesus is Lord, and tremble."

The anti-universalists argue in circles and defeat their own arguments. They'll argue confession brings salvation -- if it suits them. They'll argue confession doesn't bring salvation -- if it suits them.

Why don't you explain how the verse about demons saying who Jesus is meshes with your universalist prooftext, instead of dancing round it like its a great big campfire?

You say "Not everyone does the above." The Bible says differently -- in several places.

Where? Don't drag out the Isaiah prooftext - I have already addressed that earlier in this or another thread.

Next will be the argument, "Doing the above doesn't matter." The Bible says different -- right in the verses you posted here.

Wow, even the demons will be saved, then!

Of course, it's not the confession that every tongue will make that brings salvation. Salvation comes to all mankind through grace, lest we boast.

Confession does not bring salvation, but you are taking it as a literal sign of salvation where there is no logical reason to do so.

Charlie V · Oct 6, 2005

Scholar in training said:
Why don't you explain how the verse about demons saying who Jesus is meshes with your universalist prooftext, instead of dancing round it like its a great big campfire?

Because I've answered a number of your passages and you haven't answered any of mine.

Quid Pro Quo.

Charlie

Scholar in training · Oct 6, 2005

Charlie V said:
Because I've answered a number of your passages and you haven't answered any of mine.

I have answered a few of your prooftexts (which were not directed to me in the first place, BTW; I replied to them of my own choice, not out of obligation), and what else you have given me is either a dodge or is a long copy and paste from universalist scholars. I do not like to debate superfluous drivel or word meanings; I find both tedious.

Charlie V · Oct 6, 2005

Scholar in training said:
I have answered a few of your prooftexts (which were not directed to me in the first place, BTW; I replied to them of my own choice, not out of obligation), and what else you have given me is either a dodge or is a long copy and paste from universalist scholars. I do not like to debate superfluous drivel or word meanings; I find both tedious.

Actually, right back atcha Scholar.

I have answered this verse (and in this case was answering the false claim that it's a proof against universalism.)

You have dodged the verses I've provided.

And by the way--that's the worst dodge I've ever heard, "I do not like to debate superfluous drivel or word meanings; I find both tedious."

You've actually combined an ad hominem (calling my posts "superflous drivel") with the evidence that you shouldn't be debating here in the first place, your lack of interest in "word meanings." An ad hominem, I might add, that doesn't seem to encourage me to answer your question. I don't recall ever calling your posts "superfluous drivel."

If you're not interested in word meanings, you have no place discussing theology at all. Theology is all about word meanings. Theologions, Biblical scholars, priests, ministers and students in seminary spend their lives studying word meanings. All religious scholarship, is based on the study of scripture, and the study of scripture boils down to answering the burning question, "What do these words mean?"

If you have no interest in word meanings.. well, I must say, your name is ironic, "Scholar."

Charlie

ballfan · Oct 6, 2005

Charlie V said:
Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord.

Yes but not until after Jesus returns. At that point there is no second chance to accept Jesus as Saviour.

I already know what you'll say next, "Even the demons confess Jesus is Lord, and tremble."

The anti-universalists argue in circles and defeat their own arguments. They'll argue confession brings salvation -- if it suits them. They'll argue confession doesn't bring salvation -- if it suits them.

You say "Not everyone does the above." The Bible says differently -- in several places.

Next will be the argument, "Doing the above doesn't matter." The Bible says different -- right in the verses you posted here.

That part of your post makes no sense to me.

Of course, it's not the confession that every tongue will make that brings salvation. Salvation comes to all mankind through grace, lest we boast.

The verses I posted from Paul indicate that if we presently confess Jesus with our mouth and believe in our hearts we will be saved. Do you actually disagree with that?

Salvation depends on faith. You have it slightly wrong in your last sentence. This is the exact correct version. Grace through faith. Plain as the nose on your face.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Hello There · Oct 7, 2005

Yes but not until after Jesus returns. At that point there is no second chance to accept Jesus as Saviour.

Soooo once our heart beat stops....we are doomed for all eternity?

ballfan · Oct 7, 2005

carl unger said:
Soooo once our heart beat stops....we are doomed for all eternity?

If you're not saved then unfortunately yes. There is no second chance to accept Jesus as Saviour.

ballfan · Oct 7, 2005

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hello There · Oct 7, 2005

If you're not saved then unfortunately yes. There is no second chance to accept Jesus as Saviour.

I don't see any scriptural proof (yet) that says that Jesus' sacrafice become s unavailable after death.

Charlie V · Oct 7, 2005

ballfan said:
If you're not saved then unfortunately yes. There is no second chance to accept Jesus as Saviour.

The good news is that we are all saved.

Christ is the savior of the world, the ransom for all mankind.

Charlie

ballfan · Oct 7, 2005

carl unger said:
I don't see any scriptural proof (yet) that says that Jesus' sacrafice become s unavailable after death.

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

2Co 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

ballfan · Oct 7, 2005

Charlie V said:
The good news is that we are all saved.

Christ is the savior of the world, the ransom for all mankind.

Charlie

It would be correct to say all who have accepted Jesus are saved. All that don't accept him are not saved.

chokmah · Oct 7, 2005

ballfan said:
It would be correct to say all who have accepted Jesus are saved. All that don't accept him are not saved.

If I show you otherwise from the Tanakh, then would you change your mind?

Charlie V · Oct 7, 2005

ballfan said:
It would be correct to say all who have accepted Jesus are saved. All that don't accept him are not saved.

All will eventually accept Jesus, and be reconcilled. Jesus said He would "draw all men to me."

It isn't our work of acceptance anyway, which saves us, but it is a matter of grace.

Charlie

elman · Oct 7, 2005

Charlie V said:
All will eventually accept Jesus, and be reconcilled. Jesus said He would "draw all men to me."

It isn't our work of acceptance anyway, which saves us, but it is a matter of grace.

Charlie

When Jesus said He would draw all men to himself, I just don't think He was saying He will force all men to come to Him. Matt 25:31 and following and First John and many other scriptures teach clearly that we have a part in placing ourselve in position to recieive God's grace. The consequences of sin is death, but the consequences of loving your neighbor is life.
Prov 11:19

19 The truly righteous man attains life,
but he who pursues evil goes to his death.
(from New International Version)

God has indicated to whom He will give grace and it is not to the unloving and wicked.

ottaia · Oct 7, 2005

elman said:
God has indicated to whom He will give grace and it is not to the unloving and wicked.

Have you ever been unloving and wicked? If you say "no" then you can add "false witness" to your sins. We all have fallen short. We have all been unloving and wicked.

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Oct 7, 2005

LOL. Grace is by its very nature undeserved. So of course there are no provisos!

Charlie V · Oct 7, 2005

elman said:
When Jesus said He would draw all men to himself, I just don't think He was saying He will force all men to come to Him.

Neither do I. I think He was saying that all men would freely come to Him.

elman said:
Matt 25:31 and following and First John and many other scriptures teach clearly that we have a part in placing ourselve in position to recieive God's grace.

No. No work we do changes God or His grace.

We do place ourselves in a position to have the kingdom of God here and now, in our hearts. Or not. We do suffer temporal suffering, sometimes immense suffering, as a result of our wrongdoings.

elman said:
The consequences of sin is death, but the consequences of loving your neighbor is life.
Prov 11:19

19 The truly righteous man attains life,
but he who pursues evil goes to his death.
(from New International Version)

Absolutely true -- but we ultimately come to know that love, sometimes after great trials and tribulations.

elman said:
God has indicated to whom He will give grace and it is not to the unloving and wicked.

No, in fact, in Romans it states that He declared all in unbelief, that He may have mercy upon all.

In fact, I think His grace is more for the unloving than for the loving. The sheppard does not need to seek that which is already here -- and like the Prodigal Son, the return of the sinner when Christ draws all men to him brings great joy to both Father and son.

It is not by force, but by guidance to wisdom, that He draws the prodigal sons back.

Charlie

Scholar in training · Oct 7, 2005

I have answered this verse (and in this case was answering the false claim that it's a proof against universalism.)

You haven't actually answered why the demons would be recorded as saying this.

You have dodged the verses I've provided.

I doubt it.

You've actually combined an ad hominem (calling my posts "superflous drivel") with the evidence that you shouldn't be debating here in the first place, your lack of interest in "word meanings."

I'm sorry that you feel riposte is beneath you. Jesus didn't.

Tho I'll note that you took my statements out of context - just like you do to Scripture! I called the copy-and-past responses superfluous drivel. I did not say that applies to all of your posts. I also did not say that I have no interest in word meanings. What I said is that I find debating them tedious - partly because I do not see it as an exciting aspect of theological discussion, partly because of the PRATTs used constantly by people like you.

If you're not interested in word meanings, you have no place discussing theology at all. Theology is all about word meanings.

If you have no interest in word meanings.. well, I must say, your name is ironic, "Scholar."

Is the bold above considered an "ad hom" by your standards? I guess I can't throw so-called "ad hominems" at you but you can throw them at me?

Christ is the savior of the world, the ransom for all mankind.

Indeed, but not all will be saved. Unless a literal Adam's transgression condemned all mankind.

Rev. Smith · Oct 7, 2005

Now boys, lets play well with others.

Universalism VS. Scripture

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