Universalism: pros and cons

[Floatingaxe]

That all sounds so wonderful and spiritual and is the stuff I use to dish out too once, but no, you think you understand us and the message, but you don't understand at all.

Yes, I do. The Lord says there is nothing new under the sun. Your brand of theology is nothing new...it is not of God, but is of futile, faulty, human percepton.

If you are a Christian, you are like a 10-speed bicycle whose derailleur has slipped its chain.

 

[icedtea]

You are saying all will repent. I disagree.

 

[Tavita]

If we witnessed a milquetoasty judge administer justice in this society like you think God should, we'd string him up and

him!

Yes, that is how man judges and it shows his hard heart...


Nobody says that God is not a stern and righteous Judge... but righteous He is...

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee earnestly: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

 

[Tkjjc]

Yes, there is more to do: believe. In this life and not after. We have a part to play in our own salvation.

Your scriptures are all fine and good, but you are blind to God's FULL NATURE. You neglect all of who God is when you deny Him as righteous as well as fierce Judge.

A good judge to us is NOT a judge who allows a child killer loose on the world. Why do you make Him out to be the same unjust Judge?

More to the point. The scriptures are pretty clear about those who turn the Truth of God for a lie, and walk away from the Truth. Strange how for almost 500 years, most early church fathers believed in universal redemption or salvation. Why did they turn? Did they just "figure" out one day, that this could not be the case, because this negates TOTAL control over the parishioners lives? Once you get to the meat, instead of the milk, then you realize that no matter what you do, Jesus was ENOUGH. There is no other mediation on which to go through. Paul repeats this, Peter repeats this, James repeats this, and Jude repeats this.

If there was a punishment, and this punishment was a second death, then it would only be for those who turned the Truth of God for a lie. That would be a Just GOD. Those who say God IS NOT LOVE, but rather a God who Hates. Those who say there is more churchy things you must do, in order to EARN that salvation that was given that day on the cross. We hear this ALL the time from church teachers. Think Jesus would say this? If you LOVE me KEEP my COMMANDMENTS, PERIOD. Why??? Because He knew His Blood was ENOUGH, and the rewards were for those who followed Him in THIS LIFE.

But to say that we are heretics or not Christians, or us teaching that God is Love, and that this is a doctrine of demons, was EXACTLY WHAT THEY ACCUSED JESUS OF DOING! Wow! I Love everyone. Not some hopey dopey Love, but a real and genuine love, that can only come from God Himself. Why would I not tell people about this? Why would I tell people that IF you do this, THEN God will do that, because JESUS WASN'T ENOUGH?

He IS ENOUGH. Once you face that fact, then your mind is truly free, and you can love freely, and not dwell on the fact of punishments and damnation. That is what the Pharisees of the day wanted, trying to stone a woman, and seeking to kill Jesus, because He taught something about Love, instead of a LAW RULED SOCIETY, which have RULERS OVER THE PEOPLE. He preached freedom, peace and love. I take His dopey hopey Love, over ALL the damnation doctrine on the PLANET. What is the point? If God doesn't will for these people to seek Him, then they won't as their hearts are hardened! But are they damned? That is between THEM AND GOD! His sheep HEAR His voice. What voice are you hearing?

 

[Tkjjc]

Yes, I do. The Lord says there is nothing new under the sun. Your brand of theology is nothing new...it is not of God, but is of futile, faulty, human percepton.

If you are a Christian, you are like a 10-speed bicycle whose derailleur has slipped its chain.

And still more insults. Wow, and you question others of being Christian?

 

[Tavita]

Yes, I do. The Lord says there is nothing new under the sun. Your brand of theology is nothing new...it is not of God, but is of futile, faulty, human percepton.

If you are a Christian, you are like a 10-speed bicycle whose derailleur has slipped its chain.

I posted this, this afternoon, and it was probably passed over, so I'll post it again... it shows that the Bishop who presided over the Nicene Constantinople Creed was a Universalist, and one of the Bishops who helped formulate the Creed was a full on staunch universalist...

[SIZE=-1] The first chapter or two describes that until the 500's, ultimate reconciliation was one of the main messages taught and believed in the early church. That there were those who believed in eternal torment was true, but as the following shows, universalism, or ultimate reconciliation was not considered a heresy...

[SIZE=-1]The Nicene Creed[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The next oldest creed, the first declaration authorized by a consensus of the whole church, was the Nicene, A.D. 325; completed in 381 at Constantinopole. Its sole reference to the future world is in these words: "I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world (æon) to come." It does not contain a syllable referring to endless punishment, though the doctrine was then professed by a portion of the church, and was insisted upon by some, though it was not generally enough held to be stated as the average belief.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]So dominant was the influence of the Greek fathers, who had learned Christianity in their native tongue, in the language in which it was announced, and so little had Tertullian's cruel ideas prevailed, that it was not even attempted to make the horrid sentiment a part of the creed of the church. Moreover, Gregory
Nazianzen presided over the council in Constantinople, in which the Nicean creed was finally shaped--the Niceo-Constantinopolitan creed--and as he was a Universalist, and as the clause, "I believe in the life of the world to come," was added by Gregory of Nyssa, an "unflinching advocate of extreme Universalism, and the very flower of orthodoxy," it must be apparent that the consensus of Christian sentiment was not yet anti-Universalistic.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]General Sentiment in the Fourth Century[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]This the general sentiment in the church from 325 A.D. to 381 A.D. demanded that the life beyond the grave must be stated, and as there is no hint of the existence of a world of torment, how can the conclusion be escaped that Christian faith did not then include the thought of endless woe? Would a council, composed even in part of believers in endless torment, permit a Universalist to preside, and another to shape its creed, and not even attempt to give expression to that idea? Is not the Nicene creed a witness, in what it does not say, to the broader faith that must have been the religion of the century that adopted it?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]It is historical (See Socrates's Ecclesiastical History) that the four great General Councils held in the first four centuries--those at Nice, Constantinople, Ephesus, and Chalcedon--gave expression to no condemnation of universal restoration, though, as will be shown, the doctrine had been prevalent all along.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In the Nicene creed adopted A.D. 325, by three hundred and twenty to two hundred and eighteen bishops, the only reference to the future world is where it is said that Christ "will come again to judge the living and the dead." This is the original form, subsequently changed. A.D. 341 the assembled bishops at Antioch made a declaration of faith in which these words occur: "The Lord Jesus Christ will come again with glory and power to judge the living and the dead." A.D. 346 the bishops presented a declaration to the Emperor Constans affirming that Jesus Christ "shall come at the consummation of the ages, to judge the living and the dead, and render to every one according to his works." The synod at Rimini, A.D. 359, affirmed that Christ "descended into the lower parts of the earth, and disposed matters there, at the sight of whom the door-keepers trembled--and at the last day he will come in his Father's glory to render to every one according to his deeds." This declaration opens the gates of mercy by recognizing the proclamation of the Gospel to the dead, and, as it was believed that when Christ preached in Hades the doors were opened and all those in ward were released, the words recited at Rimini that he "disposed matters there," are very significant.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Nicene and Constantinopolitan creeds, printed in one, will exhibit the nature of the changes made at Constantinople, and will show that the "life to come" and not the post-mortem woe of sinners, was the chief thought with the early Christians.


I personally have no problem with people believing in eternal torment if that is how they see it, my concern is those who profess this declare universalist belief as heretical, when it's obvious that this wasn't an issue until hundreds of years after Christ. Universalism was a non issue in the early church.[/SIZE][/SIZE]

 

[Floatingaxe]

Yes, that is how man judges and it shows his hard heart...


Nobody says that God is not a stern and righteous Judge... but righteous He is...

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee earnestly: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

You cannot stand on piecemeal application of God's Word. Read further in your selection:

Isaiah 26:9-11
All night long I search for you;
in the morning I earnestly seek for God.
For only when you come to judge the earth
will people learn what is right.
10 Your kindness to the wicked
does not make them do good.
Although others do right, the wicked keep doing wrong
and take no notice of the Lord’s majesty.
11 O Lord, they pay no attention to your upraised fist.
Show them your eagerness to defend your people.
Then they will be ashamed.
Let your fire consume your enemies.

and verse 21:
21 Look! The Lord is coming from heaven
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will no longer hide those who have been killed.
They will be brought out for all to see.




May you get understanding! Universalists are notorious for not applying CONTEXT.

 

[Floatingaxe]

More to the point. The scriptures are pretty clear about those who turn the Truth of God for a lie, and walk away from the Truth. Strange how for almost 500 years, most early church fathers believed in universal redemption or salvation. Why did they turn? Did they just "figure" out one day, that this could not be the case, because this negates TOTAL control over the parishioners lives? Once you get to the meat, instead of the milk, then you realize that no matter what you do, Jesus was ENOUGH. There is no other mediation on which to go through. Paul repeats this, Peter repeats this, James repeats this, and Jude repeats this.

If there was a punishment, and this punishment was a second death, then it would only be for those who turned the Truth of God for a lie. That would be a Just GOD. Those who say God IS NOT LOVE, but rather a God who Hates. Those who say there is more churchy things you must do, in order to EARN that salvation that was given that day on the cross. We hear this ALL the time from church teachers. Think Jesus would say this? If you LOVE me KEEP my COMMANDMENTS, PERIOD. Why??? Because He knew His Blood was ENOUGH, and the rewards were for those who followed Him in THIS LIFE.

But to say that we are heretics or not Christians, or us teaching that God is Love, and that this is a doctrine of demons, was EXACTLY WHAT THEY ACCUSED JESUS OF DOING! Wow! I Love everyone. Not some hopey dopey Love, but a real and genuine love, that can only come from God Himself. Why would I not tell people about this? Why would I tell people that IF you do this, THEN God will do that, because JESUS WASN'T ENOUGH?

He IS ENOUGH. Once you face that fact, then your mind is truly free, and you can love freely, and not dwell on the fact of punishments and damnation. That is what the Pharisees of the day wanted, trying to stone a woman, and seeking to kill Jesus, because He taught something about Love, instead of a LAW RULED SOCIETY, which have RULERS OVER THE PEOPLE. He preached freedom, peace and love. I take His dopey hopey Love, over ALL the damnation doctrine on the PLANET. What is the point? If God doesn't will for these people to seek Him, then they won't as their hearts are hardened! But are they damned? That is between THEM AND GOD! His sheep HEAR His voice. What voice are you hearing?

Yes God is LOVE, and Jesus' sacrifice is enough...for those who accept it.

Jesus was talking to those who loved Him when He told them to keep His commandments. He REQUIRES OBEDIENCE. Not every one who calls Him Lord will enter His kingdom--ONLY THOSE WHO DO HIS WILL!

You will never win this one. Cutting out half the truth of the gospel is a grave sin.

 

[Floatingaxe]

And still more insults. Wow, and you question others of being Christian?

Anyone can say they are a Christian. They are up for scrutiny when they come here. We can't just take people at their word any more.

Christians are called to be fruit inspectors.

 

[Tavita]

You cannot stand on piecemeal application of God's Word. Read further in your selection:

Isaiah 26:9-11
All night long I search for you;
in the morning I earnestly seek for God.
For only when you come to judge the earth
will people learn what is right.
10 Your kindness to the wicked
does not make them do good.
Although others do right, the wicked keep doing wrong
and take no notice of the Lord’s majesty.
11 O Lord, they pay no attention to your upraised fist.
Show them your eagerness to defend your people.
Then they will be ashamed.
Let your fire consume your enemies.

and verse 21:
21 Look! The Lord is coming from heaven
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will no longer hide those who have been killed.
They will be brought out for all to see.




May you get understanding! Universalists are notorious for not applying CONTEXT.

I don't see anything in this that goes against my beliefs.

 

[shepsgirl]

That's exactly right.

Anyone can say they are a Christian. They are up for scrutiny when they come here. We can't just take people at their word any more.

Christians are called to be fruit inspectors.

 

[Tkjjc]

Anyone can say they are a Christian. They are up for scrutiny when they come here. We can't just take people at their word any more.

Christians are called to be fruit inspectors.

I take people at their word. If you say you are a Christian, who am I to say you aren't? As I stated, that is BETWEEN YOU and GOD. So can we lay off the insults please? If you want to discuss doctrines of the Word, fine. But we started this thread to have conversation, not to belittle and insult each other.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I take people at their word. If you say you are a Christian, who am I to say you aren't? As I stated, that is BETWEEN YOU and GOD. So can we lay off the insults please? If you want to discuss doctrines of the Word, fine. But we started this thread to have conversation, not to belittle and insult each other.

No one is belittling or insulting. When God is being insulted by those who cannot rightly divide the word of truth, then it is our job as His kids to offer up correction.

 

[SpiritDriven]

I would not like to be seen as an accuser that makes any kind of accusation....the word of God speaks for itself...From ! timothy 2

1 I am entreating, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, pleadings, thanksgiving be made for all mankind,
2 for kings and all those being in a superior station, that we may be leading a mild and quiet life in all devoutness and gravity,
3 for this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God,
4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus,
6 Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all (the testimony in its own eras),


Some people believe the word of God, some do not.

The one thing I do know for sure is that God knows the way to each and every one of us....and everybody will see things his way in the end.

Some may argue against that now...it wont make any difference....

 

[icedtea]

The one thing I do know for sure is that God knows the way to each and every one of us....and everybody will see things his way in the end.

Some may argue against that now...it wont make any difference....

Are you saying all will lose their free will and be forced to love/accept Him?

 

[Tkjjc]

No one is belittling or insulting. When God is being insulted by those who cannot rightly divide the word of truth, then it is our job as His kids to offer up correction.

Hmm, ok. You offer up correction by insulting another. Interesting to say the least.

If you are a Christian, you are like a 10-speed bicycle whose derailleur has slipped its chain.

 

[SpiritDriven]

Are you saying all will lose their free will and be forced to love/accept Him?

Paul refers to the Doctrines of Demons in the opening of 1 Timothy 4....

Was Saul going to come to Christ of his own Accord ?
No way he had to be struck down blind by the Glorified and risen Christ on the road to Damascus, to put a stop to him....who shut up Saul in that disobedience ?

God....

According to the doctrine of Free will Jesus never saved anybody....you have to save yourself....

 

[shepsgirl]

Do you believe Jesus when He says not all will enter His kingdom? Or do you think He was just lying? How can you ignore Jesus saying something like that and turn to a vague verse that says God wants all to be saved?


The Old Testament is filled with God telling the Israelites He wanted them to follow Him, but He didn't make them. He didn't take away their free will, but sent His prophets to warn them. Even then in most of the situations they rebelled against Him.


Jesus is the ransom, but not all will accept Him as Saviour; He said that, Jesus Himself said that and you are ignoring Him.

I would not like to be seen as an accuser that makes any kind of accusation....the word of God speaks for itself...From ! timothy 2

1 I am entreating, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, pleadings, thanksgiving be made for all mankind,
2 for kings and all those being in a superior station, that we may be leading a mild and quiet life in all devoutness and gravity,
3 for this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God,
4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus,
6 Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all (the testimony in its own eras),


Some people believe the word of God, some do not.

The one thing I do know for sure is that God knows the way to each and every one of us....and everybody will see things his way in the end.

Some may argue against that now...it wont make any difference....

 

[JacobHall86]

the concept of free will is a humanistic belief that has very little scriptural backing.

 

[icedtea]

Mark 13;20
And except the Lord had shortneed those days, no flesh should be saved, but the elect's sake, Whom He Has Chosen, He hath shortened the days.

Psalm 145:20
The Lord preserveth all them that love Him, but all the wicked will He destroy.