Universalism: pros and cons

[Nadiine]

*edited - reposted due to quote glitch*

 

[SpiritDriven]

This post helps me give a better response to SD about shared responsibility. On the negative side, I used the dynamic of blame to show how we humans sometimes, even though we know there is more than one cause, attribute all the responsibility to one of them, and excuse the others. The problem with this is that we then change our narration and act as if the cause we blamed or assigned responsibility was the only cause, when in reality, what happened could not have happened but for quite a number of things happening or being in place at the same time. We call this the "but for" test of causation.

On the positive side, I think the New Testament's most predominant paradigm for narrative construction (and let's make no mistake - what we are engaged in is biblical theology, that is, constructing a narrative that is as consistent as possible with all of scripture) is love.

Human narratives about love are that it is supposed to be mutual and reciprocal. The loving act of one toward another ideally provokes a loving response that, in turn increases love again. OTOH, unrequited love is a tragedy, or causes something to go very wrong if it is not quickly extinguished when not returned. Think stalkers and other annoying admirers, as well as some of the other analogies we've seen in these threads, like kidnapping.

So love involves two persons, and can't work right unless both willingly participate.

The question we are exploring, then, is what options are available to God, who loves all humans, to deal with those who don't love God back. What endings can we put on such narratives, and are such endings consistent with scripture?

I think, as creatures, we certainly can take ultimate causation back to the First Cause, the creator. But love is not possible without at least two agents, so we cannot discount human agency, either. That is why I find simplistic narratives, like the Calvinist one and some universalist ones, that disregard human agency entirely. They are not consistent with scriptures that, for example, assign ethical responsibility to humans, and they are not consistent with love.

When comming into the presence of God, the love that emmanates from him is the purest and strongest and most perfect love you can encounter.

It wipes away into insignificance even the strongest Love experience you can have with another human being in this life time.

It is like standing on a beach down near where the water meets with the sand, and being hit by a tidal wave the size of a sky scraper building.

You are completly over whelmed by it, unable to resist you become one with it.....the worst of Enemies jump for joy and Love each other in his presence...they just cannot help themselves.

Even the most God hating person of all time is overwhelmed almost instantly...hmmm about a half a second.....


Such is the Soveriegn Power and will of God.

 

[Rajni]

I would much rather just be totally extinguished from existence. Wouldn't you? Maybe this is the second death? I don't know, nor do I want to find out.

Even if there were a 3rd, 4th, or even a 50th death, death itself gets destroyed in the end, so there's not much to worry about there!

 

[Nadiine]

Does Scripture teach anything or do people use Scripture to teach things?

Ask that about the crucifixion - maybe that's all wrong too... heck, maybe Jesus didn't even exist!

OH MY!!



I guess we can't really even know anything at all

We're all doomed.

 

[Nadiine]

Well this thread looks more like
"PREACH TO THE CHOIR" at the moment.


I'll go find a worthwhile thread till the virtual feeding frenzy dissipates.

The good thing is, no matter how bad we act & attack people, we're all getting into heaven anyways






21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’

23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

[CaDan]

Ask that about the crucifixion - maybe that's all wrong too... heck, maybe Jesus didn't even exist!

OH MY!!

OK. I'll ask it. Does the Crucifixion teach anything or do people use the Crucifixion to teach things?

 

[Rajni]

Even the most God hating person of all time is overwhelmed almost instantly...hmmm about a half a second.....


Such is the Soveriegn Power and will of God.

Amen. It could be that sin's power has been artificially inflated to such a degree that it rivals the power of God in their minds. It makes it seem that my sin is just so all-that-and-a-bag-of-chips that God Himself needs aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalll eternity to torment me because of it. Conclusion? Wow! My sin must be really something to require all that constant, unending attention! This is what the partialist is leaning towards by suggesting that sin requires such outlandishly strong action. Just a thought.

 

[CaDan]

Well this thread looks more like
"PREACH TO THE CHOIR" at the moment.


I'll go find a worthwhile thread till the virtual feeding frenzy dissipates.

The good thing is, no matter how bad we act & attack people, we're all getting into heaven anyways






21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’

23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Mockery is not helpful. If you don't want to participate, that's fine.

 

[SpiritDriven]

I think a lot of people are blinded (temporarliry or for a season by God) to the soveriegn Power and Will of God.

Teaching a Doctrine of Free Will, is like saying that the sword controls the arm that wields it....?

Man can be Will Full yes.....but it avails him nothing with God.

What is the Fathers good pleasure ?

 

[Rajni]

Well this thread looks more like

"PREACH TO THE CHOIR" at the moment.

That's probably because the disproval of Universalism is still being celebrated over at the other thread. Let 'em enjoy themselves awhile, LOL!

 

[Nadiine]

Mockery is not helpful. If you don't want to participate, that's fine.

Neither is personal attack CaDan, you may want to reprimand "someone else" if you really care about what's "RIGHT". Either correct impartially or don't do it at all.

Plus, I've also seen enough of your posts.

If you correct mine, then you need to correct hers & others and pay attn to your own; then it makes your reprimand more credible.

 

[Floatingaxe]

The momentary Lightness of our affliction, produces for us a transcendantly transcendant burden of eonion glory.2 Cor. 4:17

Did you notice how Paul ran out of adequate words to desribe such, he had no better word to use so he used trancendantly transcendant....it means over cast, but not in the sense of a weather report, but as in higher than the highest thing...over cast over all....note burden....

That is an interesting word burden.....something that is carried : load b: duty responsibility

Some people want to taste Glory to the dregs...Jesus knows who they are, but they will taste suffering to the dregs to produce that burden of eonion Glory.

Is not suffering somthing that has to be graciously granted ?
Philippians 2:29: "For to you it is graciously granted, for Christ’s sake, not only to be believing on Him, but to be suffering for His sake also."
"(We are) joint enjoyers of Christ’s allotment, if so be that we are suffering together, that we should be glorified together also" (Rom. 8:17).

Will we wish we had not suffered more in preperation when that time comes ?

Note that the trials are called "light," while the glory is a "burden." Paul had a healthy perspective here.
We often suppose that these trials are weighty and that the glory could never eclipse the pain.

This is so wrong.

Our bodies need to be changed. Why? Because we can’t carry so much glory in these frames. Without new bodies, we couldn’t bear the glory ahead. It would be like asking a light bulb filament to channel a nuclear explosion......

What is so wrong? Being carriers of the Glory? Eh?? What's truly wrong here is thinking that bearing the glory of God and His power and favour is wrong!

 

[Nadiine]

Originally Posted by Nadiine

Now that I know you're only pretending to be infallible, I can disregard statements like this.

More useful information. You're only persuaded by nonsense.

So you are unwilling to participate in this thread according to the parameters set forth by the OP.

Lucky for you she has promised not to request its closure.

Perhaps we have considered it, but have decided it is only one narrative and not the overarching metanarrative that explains God, the universe and everything.

Since we know you are no more educated than we are, and are only pretending to know more than the rest of us, this doesn't help you, either.

Let's get real.

What does repentance have to do with God wiping out whole cities, including children incapable of repenting?

Who thinks that?

Yet it seems, after sifting away all the pretense, you want universalists to change their message because it offends you.

Have you ever thought of it that way?

*redoing post/quote feature glitch*

Well Liz... you still haven't READ my posts. IF you read them, you'de see what I actually said, NOT what you place onto me w/ what you "hear". You clearly didn't hear what I said.. Not a shock tho.

WHAT MATTERS IS SCRIPTURE.
(if you read my post, you'de of seen that repeatedly) I don't care what people's assessments are - the bible is from GOD to US to teach us His spiritual truths.
Universalism offends ME none- it's an offense against people who will be lulled into a false sense of eternal security when they find out the Bible was true about eternal condemnation.

Argue GOD about it, it's His word and it's blatantly clear if people actually wanted to believe what it said.

Your personal attacks change nothing. & If I'm wrong, what the heck do you care? we'll all be dancing around the stars up there in bliss... what does any of our opinion matter; right or wrong?


Many people will continue to live in the chronic sins they choose - which might include adultery, cheating people, lying, stealing, gossipping & whatever else, I guess my horrible sin is preaching what the BIBLE says about not everyone making it into heaven to warn them of impending danger of harm to them.

I like how OTHERS get your pardon, but you lay into ME when (in your mind) you think I'm doing something so wrong.
People claim to believe one thing & preach their tolerance, yet posts like yours show the REAL underlying sources & beliefs & what's actually going on at the core.

Thanks for the enlightenment & confirmation

(ps. this not a formal debate, I have no interest in one - nor do I HAVE to join one. If you want to, skip on over & type to your heart's content; your comments on a formal debate are invalid as it pertains to me OR this thread)
Last I checked, this thread didn't say "UNIVERSALISTS ONLY" did it??

Since you fancy passing out educational links, here's one you might want to look up:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/tolerance

 

[Floatingaxe]

What I am saying is that your advocacy tends to drift into that line of thinking. A certain asceticism that impresses God.

God is blessed. Make NO mistake!

 

[Floatingaxe]

There are different degrees of Pietism. It is not necessarily Pelagianism.

Do you want my "P" word?

 

[Tavita]

Originally Posted by Nadiine


*redoing post/quote feature glitch*

Well Liz... you still haven't READ my posts. IF you read them, you'de see what I actually said, NOT what you place onto me w/ what you "hear". You clearly didn't hear what I said.. Not a shock tho.

WHAT MATTERS IS SCRIPTURE.
(if you read my post, you'de of seen that repeatedly) I don't care what people's assessments are - the bible is from GOD to US to teach us His spiritual truths.
Universalism offends ME none- it's an offense against people who will be lulled into a false sense of eternal security when they find out the Bible was true about eternal condemnation.

Argue GOD about it, it's His word and it's blatantly clear if people actually wanted to believe what it said.

Your personal attacks change nothing. & If I'm wrong, what the heck do you care? we'll all be dancing around the stars up there in bliss... what does any of our opinion matter; right or wrong?


Many people will continue to live in the chronic sins they choose - which might include adultery, cheating people, lying, stealing, gossipping & whatever else, I guess my horrible sin is preaching what the BIBLE says about not everyone making it into heaven to warn them of impending danger of harm to them.

I like how OTHERS get your pardon, but you lay into ME when (in your mind) you think I'm doing something so wrong.
People claim to believe one thing & preach their tolerance, yet posts like yours show the REAL underlying sources & beliefs & what's actually going on at the core.

Thanks for the enlightenment & confirmation

(ps. this not a formal debate, I have no interest in one - nor do I HAVE to join one. If you want to, skip on over & type to your heart's content; your comments on a formal debate are invalid as it pertains to me OR this thread)
Last I checked, this thread didn't say "UNIVERSALISTS ONLY" did it??

Since you fancy passing out educational links, here's one you might want to look up:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/tolerance

Nadiine, you don't put the scriptures above Jesus Himself do you? Many of your posts come across to me that way.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Here's where I see the analogy breaking down. The example most often used of a parent warning a child is teaching the child not to run out in the street without looking for traffic. In this example and the others I recall, the warning is to avoid dangers caused by OTHERS. The parent isn't saying, "If you run out in the street without looking, I will deliberately run over you and kill you." A good parent would not deliberately run over their child and kill them. Warning a child of dangers posed by others is one thing, but warning a child off something that will be the parent's deliberate action - not corrective action, but destructive action - does not fit the analogy.

Can you find a better analogy?

Once again I say that God isn't the parent of all---only his own. There is no analogy that comes from family.

I warn my own children. I am not responsible for the children up the street who have their own parents.

Let Buddha, Allah, Krishna, Ganesh, the goddess, Satan, etc. take care of their own.

 

[Tkjjc]

22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’

This sounds like people who THOUGHT THEY KNEW CHRIST, but sadly maybe taught something else altogether. What would make Jesus THAT mad at them?

 

[CaDan]

Do you want my "P" word?

No, not really. But if you feel led, go ahead.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Now that I know you're only pretending to be infallible, I can disregard statements like this.

More useful information. You're only persuaded by nonsense.

So you are unwilling to participate in this thread according to the parameters set forth by the OP.

Lucky for you she has promised not to request its closure.

Perhaps we have considered it, but have decided it is only one narrative and not the overarching metanarrative that explains God, the universe and everything.

Since we know you are no more educated than we are, and are only pretending to know more than the rest of us, this doesn't help you, either.

Let's get real.

What does repentance have to do with God wiping out whole cities, including children incapable of repenting?

Who thinks that?

Yet it seems, after sifting away all the pretense, you want universalists to change their message because it offends you.

Have you ever thought of it that way?

In spite of your haughtiness, you not only offend her and myself, but what you say offends God by your ignorance of His word set before you plainly.

Very sad state of affairs, really.