Universalism, Is it True?

[IamRedeemed]

Why does it have to be discussion OR Scripture?
As Christians, why would our discussions regarding doctrinal
issues be discussed without their foundation?

Can you build a house without a foundation?
And if you do manage it, at the first gust of wind
can such a house stand without its foundation?

The faith of Christianity is built on the solid Rock.
The foundation of which is found within the pages
of Scripture.

As Christians, there is nothing to discuss regarding doctrines
OUTSIDE of Scripture. Any doctrine that seeks to do this should
throw up an IMMEDIATE red flag, as that doctrine is built NOT on
the solid rock, but rather on SINKING SAND.

and PS...no one spun anything. Your own words testify against you
as written and even reiterated in this post here below! :shakes head:

Well I really don't know where to begin, as pretty much everything that could have been misunderstood and twisted about my post has been misunderstood and twisted.

If you do not want discussion but just want to look at scripture that is fine. Others are already doing that, though I can still provide you with links upon links of endless scriptural evidence. If you honestly don't believe then just ask. We can silently pile books upon books of scripture against each other until the end of time.

But that is not why I came here. I am here to argue the practicality, logistics and righteousness of what you say. Nowhere do I say my reasoning is "above all others". If it is wrong then I'd like to see why it is wrong, from an argument based on other reasoning, your reasoning. Something which I have never seen happen when dealing with fundamentalists. At best you ignore what is really being said and conveniently spin the debate in a circle which allows you to continue not really thinking about the issue.

 

[ShammahBenJudah]

Well I really don't know where to begin, as pretty much everything that could have been misunderstood and twisted about my post has been misunderstood and twisted.

If you do not want discussion but just want to look at scripture that is fine. Others are already doing that, though I can still provide you with links upon links of endless scriptural evidence. If you honestly don't believe then just ask. We can silently pile books upon books of scripture against each other until the end of time.

But that is not why I came here. I am here to argue the practicality, logistics and righteousness of what you say. Nowhere do I say my reasoning is "above all others". If it is wrong then I'd like to see why it is wrong, from an argument based on other reasoning, your reasoning. Something which I have never seen happen when dealing with fundamentalists. At best you ignore what is really being said and conveniently spin the debate in a circle which allows you to continue not really thinking about the issue.

I think you've made the point I highlighted clear to us.

If you have something to prove, or need something proven to you, you're wasting my time. I have nothing to prove to anyone except that Christ lives...and I already know that. The only thing I need to prove for myself now is the good, acceptable and perfect will of God...but then...that's between me and Him.

I'm up for a decent discussion that has some value and meat to it...something more substantial than philosophical hot air...but it isn't my job to change your or anyone elses mind and visa versa...so the argument thing to me is pointless. Nobody ever wins an argument.

As for ignoring what is said, that's just nuts. I have no problem at all seeing the reconciliation POV...the problem I have is that I can't see it as a Biblical POV. There are too many disconnects when trying to apply the precepts with Biblical truth.

I point out the disconnects and then ask for the precepts that do connect it with Biblical truth, the essence of the answer is, "You need to be brainwashed before you can get it." Sorry, but life's too short for that kind of nonsense.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

That's odd, then why does it say it is by grace through faith that we are SAVED?



If I understand what you're saying, you are equating God's faithfulness to perform His Word with the faith needed for salvation.

God is faithful to do what He says He will do, and He is faithful to us even when we are faithless.

But let's look at another scripture real quick:

And brought them out, and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
And they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:30-31

According to the scripture...there is something WE MUST DO in order to be saved. If what you are saying is true, Paul would have answered, "NOTHING! You're already saved!"

Instead, Paul answered the Jailer...Pisteuo on the Lord Jesus Christ. Pisteuo is the verb form of the noun pistis which by the way means faith. Verbs are action words...so Paul's answer to the Jailer was to be saved, you must actively have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

So...if we, as the Jailer did, have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ...then God is faithful to perform His Word and we will receive the free gift of His salvation.



Sheol or hades is often translated as hell, but it is not the same as gehenna...hell is the place of the dead...period. Scripture makes it clear that there is an impassable gulf in hell between torment and paradise. And for the record, Jesus said He went to Paradise, not torment.

So, yes Jesus redeemed the OT saints. But there is no evidence that those in torment were effected by that.



This is a bit much, but for the most part, I think we are saying very similar things. The difference I perceive is the paradigm of the understanding of "all".

A few pages back, I think Mathetes did a bit on the term "all" that expressed my understanding of it very well. Maybe it would do some good to peruse the thread and check it out. I looked briefly and didn't see it.

If you're reading this Mathetes, maybe you remember where it was and could quote or link to it for us...I liked your perspective and it might save some redundancy.

But briefly..."all" is an inclusive word. The question about who or what is included or excluded from its reach needs to be answered in both local and universal context of scripture. Here are a few examples:

Yes, God will redeem Israel, but the Word establishes some boundaries of inclusion:

Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness. And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed. Isaiah 1:27-28



Here's another:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes (pisteuo) in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."

All is..whosoever has faith in Christ...

"He who believes (pisteuo) in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe (pisteuo) is condemned already, because he has not believed (pisteuo) in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." John 3:16-21

He who does not have faith in Christ is condemned...errr...that doesn't fit into the same category of "all" as those who do have faith in Christ, does it?



And one more...

He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.

Notice...not all received Him.

But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe (pisteuo) on His name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:11-13

So the power to become sons of God is inclusively given to ALL who receive Christ AND once again we see the redundancy of the need for pisteuo.

I might add that the reconciliation of Romans 5:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:18-20 is not the equivalent of salvation. They are different terms...without the ministry of Christ's reconciliation, salvation would be impossible.



Believe me, its not that I have any desire to see this happen, but those who aren't found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire. I didn't write it, but I can't just ignore it...and there is only one resurrection.

It is this resurrection that raises ALL the dead to stand before the Great White Throne...what scriptural hope can you offer the man who stands at the Throne of Judgement who's name is not in the Book of Life?

"Don't worry, you will not surely die...it isn't real." ... ? Who's gospel is that?



I think the Bible makes it a little clearer...the difference between believers and unbelievers is the exercise of faith.

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth (pisteuo) in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth (pisteuo) in me shall never die."

Wow...this pisteuo thing is everywhere! Ya gotta have faith!!!!!!


......


Sounds more like what John Lennon would say than Jesus. Try perusing the thread on this topic. This is just not scriptural, you won't find many here likely to swallow it, and I'm not going to chase it in redundancy.

The post has too many characters so I've stopped here. I'm not sure there was anything that hasn't already been addressed. If there is, forgive me..the post is too long and I'm tired.

A few pages back, I think Mathetes did a bit on the term "all" that expressed my understanding of it very well. Maybe it would do some good to peruse the thread and check it out. I looked briefly and didn't see it.

If you're reading this Mathetes, maybe you remember where it was and could quote or link to it for us...I liked your perspective and it might save some redundancy

Not sure if it was me . . . but I agree with your contention.

Acts 2 is a good one. Joel says ALL flesh . . . but then the "all" is qualified as "men and women servants" . . . "all" is always determined by context . . . much the same as "no one."

 

[HighwayMan]

I think you've made the point I highlighted clear to us.

If you have something to prove, or need something proven to you, you're wasting my time. I have nothing to prove to anyone except that Christ lives...and I already know that.

We both can agree that "Christ lives", but as evident by this discussion our versions of Christ are quite different.

I'm up for a decent discussion that has some value and meat to it...something more substantial than philosophical hot air...but it isn't my job to change your or anyone elses mind and visa versa...so the argument thing to me is pointless. Nobody ever wins an argument.

It's funny you would say that but still find it productive to debate scripture. Every single discussion regarding scripture I have seen, concerning whatever subject you can think of between various different denominations involves one side posting quotes, the other telling them to look at the bigger context, the 1st one arguing that they are already doing that and so on and so on. I am not trying to devalue scripture, but what should be clear from all the endless debates is that one side or group has never "won" this sort of argument either. There is not one, true way of looking at it.

As for ignoring what is said, that's just nuts. I have no problem at all seeing the reconciliation POV...the problem I have is that I can't see it as a Biblical POV. There are too many disconnects when trying to apply the precepts with Biblical truth.

I point out the disconnects and then ask for the precepts that do connect it with Biblical truth, the essence of the answer is, "You need to be brainwashed before you can get it." Sorry, but life's too short for that kind of nonsense.

It must be uncomfortable thinking that certain beliefs about God (specifically - the majority of mankind in hell) fail every single basic human concept of justice and morality. I really would want to argue this point but the only answer I ever get is "no, these are YOUR concepts", which says nothing at all. That is where the thinking stops and people jump back to the version of the Bible that has been preached into their heads, repeating the same quotes "But God so loved us that He sent his only son etc" over and over again without trying to apply what they are saying to the actual argument.

Though it is obvious we won't get anywhere here, and I don't mean this in a disrespectful way. As you said, I do not wish to waste your time, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. Peace be with you.

 

[ShammahBenJudah]

It must be uncomfortable thinking that certain beliefs about God (specifically - the majority of mankind in hell) fail every single basic human concept of justice and morality. I really would want to argue this point but the only answer I ever get is "no, these are YOUR concepts", which says nothing at all. That is where the thinking stops and people jump back to the version of the Bible that has been preached into their heads, repeating the same quotes "But God so loved us that He sent his only son etc" over and over again without trying to apply what they are saying to the actual argument.

Though it is obvious we won't get anywhere here, and I don't mean this in a disrespectful way. As you said, I do not wish to waste your time, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. Peace be with you.

I don't think anyone believes that God is in the least bit unjust or immoral in His judgements...at least none that I know in this discussion. But IMO, these are aspects of God that are either overlooked or overplayed.

How long can a man carry on a "one-sided" love affair before its too long?

How many advances are appropriate for a man to make toward a woman he loves?

How many times must she tell him "NO" before it becomes inappropriate for him to keep wooing her?

If her affections are set on another man, how long does he compete with the other man for her love?

What does he do when he has laid down his very life for her and she despises and rejects it, and mocking him to scorn she turns to the other man?

When her heart makes it clear to him that her desire is not for him, is it not appropriate for him to let her go her own way?

God's love, mercy and grace are matchless. But His patience and tolerance are not in-exhaustible. He knows the hearts of men...He knows when He's not wanted and He knows when enough is enough.

Hell was not made for man. It was made for satan and those who followed him. It isn't God who sends men to hell, it is the deception of the "other man" wooing men to follow him...and it is the choice of men to give their affections to the other man instead.

God cries out to us...You have a choice between blessing and cursing, life and death...PLEASE...CHOOSE LIFE!

But after the one He loves has said "NO" repeatedly, what do we call it if the man "takes her" anyway?

 

[ShammahBenJudah]

Not sure if it was me . . . but I agree with your contention.

Acts 2 is a good one. Joel says ALL flesh . . . but then the "all" is qualified as "men and women servants" . . . "all" is always determined by context . . . much the same as "no one."

Maybe it was a look at 1 Timothy 4:10 I was thinking of...I don't remember ...and I keep forgetting to take my ginko biloba

 

[Suede]

Hey Shammah,

I'm short on time, prepping to go on a much needed vacation, so here are two posts to read and consider until I return - I think they do a better job explaining what I am trying to convey to you. Here's the first one, and due to length I'll post the second one in a separate post. Take care until then, have a good weekend, hopefully we can pick it up Sunday night,

SUEDE

We were… we are… we shall be saved [Rom 5:9-10; 8:24; 1Cor 15:2]; and …lift up your heads, for your redemption draws nigh [Lk 21:28]; "…God, who has reconciled us to Himself…" [2Cor 5:18]. These expressions – 'redemption, reconciliation and salvation' although indelibly linked and often appearing as interchangeable terms in Scripture, are not always saying the one or same thing, especially so when it comes to defining the contexts between that which is temporal and that which eternal. There are important and significant differences between them, and some crossover of thought does occur where salvation or saved are used in the global sense – properly referring to 'redemption-reconciliation' as in reflecting the essence of Divine deliverance from sinMt 1:21; Lk 1:77]. "Redemption" however literally means to be bought back – this is what God has done in Christ; similarly "reconciliation" where He paid a price in ransoming and thus reconciling the world back to himself [Mt 20:28; Mk 10:45; 1Tim 2:6]. "Salvation" in comparison, is to be brought into – an experience which those who through belief in God through Christ appropriated i.e., they enter into through faith.


To further clarify this distinction that can be between redemption-reconciliation and salvation, consider the following. Specifically we can see Paul defining these differing aspects of God's grace at work:


Rom 5:10a For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son…
Christ's Cross – His death, redeemed-reconciled Israel-humanity corporately back to God [Isa 53:11; Col 1:20-22].


Redemption-Reconciliation enables us to find the Way of Salvation, that being Christ alone – this is the work of divine grace and is not the result of our "believing". If our believing could produce our redemption-reconciliation then Jesus died in vain. However, redemption-reconciliation on the other hand CAN produce belief; the working of repentance in turning mind and heart in thankfulness to God – thus bringing confidence before God and so deliverance in life – salvation of the soul, i.e., of the inner man. Or as Paul goes onto say:


Rom 5:10b …much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Christ's Resurrection – His life, brought and brings salvation to those who will grasp it, individually.


Salvation as just stated "of the inner man" on the other hand, is the realisation or revelation of mind and heart that knows I am loved and accepted by God – that knows all are loved and accepted by Him. The work then of salvation is that of assurance – the confidence in knowing that I have been restored unto favour with God – accepted in the Beloved [Eph 1:6]. This knowledge of acceptance or, assurance, is what multiplies grace and peace and works divine growth, grace and transformation [2Pt 1:2-4].


There is another aspect of salvation as found in the contextual setting of the New Testament that must also be acknowledged – that of the literal flight of the first-fruit saints out of Palestine before and during the Jewish-Roman wars; specifically culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem in their generation. The root meaning of the word "salvation" is to deliver – this in the "this generation" [Mt 24:34] time-frame, particularly the calamities of AD 66-70 had a very temporal outworking for those who heeded Christ's words to flee. Salvation then, is not always something that is restricted to the "spiritual" sphere of operation.


Having said that however; the covenantal overtones of being redeemed-reconciled means that, covenantally, there can be a personal salvation occurring in the heart of a believer that is working deliverance from toxic life patterns i.e., those things that work foster and occupy temporal pain in our lives:


Hang-ups [toxic thinking] Hurts [toxic emotions] Habits [toxic behaviour] – Head-Heart-Hands; one invariably follows the other in actions and consequences.


Again, it is the embracing of this assurance that grasps the reality of redemption-reconciliation that can then work personal deliverance. Without Christ one cannot fully know the associated blessings of forgiveness – that does not mean we have not been forgiven, we have [Jn 1:29; 1Jn 2:2], it simply means that without Christ we cannot know it i.e., we cannot grasp the reality of our forgiveness. Peter indicates similar:


Act 10:43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."


The word here translated "receive" [labein – λαβειν] means to grasp, and is in the active voice – meaning that the subject [the believer, not God] produces the action – cf. Mt 21:34; Heb 10:26. In other words: believing or having faith in Christ enables one to grasp a hold of the actuality of forgiveness – to seize with certainty the remission of sins, i.e., coming into the reality of Christ's redeeming-reconciling work of "…not imputing their trespasses to them…" [2Cor 5:19b].


Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace…


Col 1:14 …in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
The apostle Luke further demonstrates the dual nature of God's grace at work:


Lk 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation [deliverance] to His people by the remission of their sins [redemption – forgiveness]…


The end result of this is knowing peace with God. It becomes our heart's assurance that redemption is ours – the promise secure, and this is what "saves" the soul:


Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise [epangelia – επαγγελια = assurance] by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


1Jn 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
Borrowing a couple of paragraphs from the article entitled Fulfilled Grace,


The biblical term "salvation" is as broad an expression as one can find in relation to the ministration of God's grace; however the turns of phrase to be saved or being saved must be understood as being descriptive of the subject to which it is being applied; and as explained above there are a number of different biblical aspects to what being saved means. Pertaining to REDEMPTION everyone IS saved, having been delivered from sin's offence – adjudged so by God i.e., reconciled. Likewise, just as humanity was not involved in the imputation of guilt through Adam's sin – adjudged so by God, so man was not involved with his redemption-reconciliation either, that was between God and Christ – man however was the recipient of it, the beneficiary.


Thus there was established through the Cross of Christ a broad all encompassing unilateral and universal deliverance [Heb 9:26] – what we call salvation; it brought redemption-reconciliation TO the whole world – collectively. This redemptive and reconciling act of God in turn has the potential of bringing a personal deliverance – again, what we call salvation, to those OF the world – individually. Thus humanity truly IS already saved objectively [de jure – in principle, in law] and "in Christ" collectively, yet when one comes into a personal revelation of Christ's meritorious grace this salvation truly works subjectively [de facto – in reality] an apprehension, acceptance, appropriation and application of Christ's saving work, individually – and THIS IS the assurance of salvation.


Just as the promise is there for all who will grasp it in faith [Act 10:43], there remains yet no less the promise to those who either in ignorance or arrogance do not or will not grasp it – it is true however that in this life they will be less for not having apprehended it. Yet as the apostle Paul said:


Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but alsowho is the father of us all… to those who are of the faith of Abraham,


Gal 4:25-26 …for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.


The 'father of faith' and 'the mother of us all' extends to more than just the seed that acknowledge or confess their linage. The truth is, there are many who through lack of knowledge wander aimlessly [Prov 29:18] through life, bogged down in an identity crisis – it is this message of Gospel i.e., the revelation of God's righteousness [Rom 1:17] that will dispel and dismiss this veil of ignorance, for God is the loving father of us all [Psa 24:1; Act 17:29].


Rom 3:3-4a For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not!


Rom 11:32-33 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!


To summarise: In spite of the similarities, there are differences between how and through whom these three biblical themes all work out:


The force of biblical REDEMPTION is towards Israel – microcosmic.
The focus of biblical RECONCILIATION is towards humanity – macrocosmic.
The fullness of biblical SALVATION is upon those called to minister – God's change agents in a changing world; those who are saved to serve.

 

[Suede]

Shammah,

Here is the other article, please read them and consider. It addresses the big 'faith' issue you are leaning on. It's in two parts due to length,

How broad is the canvas of God's love, how far the strokes of His grace? To what lengths does it reach, and can it be put aside? In its various forms, what is becoming known as "The Gospel of Peace" "Universal Reconciliation" "Realised Redemption" "The Gospel of Inclusion" "Comprehensive Grace" and what I shall refer to in this article as "Fulfilled Grace" views the panorama of God's Grace in Christ as boundless.


This study of 'Fulfilled Grace' will start with some basic definitions:


'Redemption': God's unilateral act in Christ of reconciling and restoring the relationship between Himself and His creation. Humanity in [because of] Christ has a renewed stance.
'Justification': God's declaration and conferring of the status of 'righteous' upon man - being put to the right with God – the result of the faith [faithfulness] of Christ in bringing redemption i.e., the forgiveness of sin.
'Salvation': God's deliverance - and is two fold in application. Primarily, deliverance from the power and fear of sin-death, resultant in the assurance of redemption, so enabling the renewal of the mind. Secondary, deliverance from the coming temporal wrath of AD70.


"Unless a man is 'born again' he will not go to Heaven when he dies" – otherwise read as: "Unless a man is 'born again' he will be annihilated, or suffer eternal conscious torment in the fires of Hell" - that is how traditional evangelical Christianity has read and interpreted the 3rd chapter of John's Gospel. 'Fulfilled Grace' turns this notion on its head.


What Jesus actually said was one could neither "see" i.e., comprehend nor "enter" i.e., apprehend the Kingdom of God/Heaven as a present reality without the rebirth. In the Greek these injunctions are in the aorist tense, meaning: an action as having occurred, the results of which being past indefinite – Jesus was not pointing to some future state of being or to some future destination beyond the grave i.e., Heaven. He was pointing to the established standing or condition in God of having one's heart and mind opened up to know the reality of His presence in the 'here and now'. This is eternal life and is qualitative not quantitative, it is relational not spatial – as Jesus prayed:


Jn 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

1Jn 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. cf. Jn 20:31.


The outworking of this equates to the salvation of the soul and is not to be confused with Redemption – the reconciling of humanity to God. Salvation in this sense is the constant deliverance of the soul, the inner life, from that which obstructs fellowship with God – the constants of life that challenge us to change. This approach to understanding the salvation of the soul being thematic, as seen in the renewal of the inward man, the hidden man of the heart [2Cor 4:16; 1Pt 3:4; Rom 12:2; Eph 4:23; Col 3:10; Tit 3:5].


Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

This, as opposed to the strict grammatical use where soul is indicative of the physical body or the totality of the person. cf. 1Thess 5:23. This aspect however is not to be ignored, as we again see the dual nature of this salvation, on the one hand in the covenantal sense i.e., deliverance from the 'Old World' of the Law, while on the other the temporal, tangible and quite literal physical escape from the forth coming wrath-judgment of God that was occurring in that last days time frame AD30-70. Jesus said: "In your patience possess your souls." Lk 21:19. And: "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." Mt 24:13.


Reconciliation on the other hand was the unilateral act of God with absolutely no reference to the desires or wishes of man. For example, Israel was redeemed out of Egypt without their permission or consent. They were redeemed, period, whether they believed or not. Israel's redemption was not conditional upon their active response in faith, nor any act of repentance. They were elected by God in spite of themselves. Belief and obedience [active faith or faithfulness] certainly brought success and blessing, but these were built upon God's predetermined choosing of Israel. Without any "prayer of faith" or required "confession" corporate Israel as a whole, unbelieving and rebellious were redeemed.


Those who then realised [comprehended] the inestimable value of this great gift, in faith entered [apprehended] the Land i.e., salvation - the blessing of knowing His peace. We see a picture of the two-fold nature of restoration in Jesus' encounter with the 'ten lepers' of Luke 17:11-19 – all were healed and restored [reconciled], yet only one entered into the fullness [salvation] of this wholeness [reconciliation-redemption]. It was his faith that appropriated and grasped this blessing. In like fashion Jesus elsewhere said "go in peace, your faith has made you well" i.e., saved you. [Lk 7:50; 8:48].


Redemption can produce a believer, but believing cannot produce redemption. When were we reconciled - when we believed? No, but when we were dead in trespasses and sins.


Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

What then makes a believer? – revealed righteousness or required righteousness?


Rom 1:17 For in it [the Gospel] the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

Did the Law [required righteousness] make one a sinner? No – the Law only revealed a pre-existing condition of man's sin - revealed through his inability to walk uprightly.


Does the Gospel [revealed righteousness] make one righteous? No – the Gospel reveals the pre-existing condition of God's righteousness – revealed through the faithfulness of Christ, and puts out 'the call' and proclaims "come walk in it" – finding rest and peace for the soul – salvation, the assurance of redemption.


Although 'redemption' and 'salvation' are indelibly linked and often appear as interchangeable terms, there are important and significant differences between the two, and some crossover of thought occurs where either salvation or saved are used in the "global" sense, properly referring to 'redemption' – reflecting the essence of Divine deliverance. "Redemption" however is to be "brought back" – that's what God did in Christ, reconciled the world back to himself. "Salvation" in comparison is to be "brought into" – that which those who through belief in God through Christ appropriated – enter in faith.


Redemption enables us to find the Way of salvation which is in Christ alone. It is the work of divine Grace. If our believing could produce redemption then Jesus died in vain. Redemption however can produce belief – the working of repentance which is the turning of the mind and heart in thankfulness to God.


Salvation is the realisation, the revelation of mind and heart that knows I am loved and accepted by God, that knows all are loved and accepted by Him. The work then of salvation is that of assurance – the knowing that I have been restored unto God – accepted in the Beloved [Eph 1:6]. This knowledge of acceptance i.e., assurance is what multiplies grace and peace and works divine growth and transformation [2Pt 1:2-4].

 

[Suede]

Someone might say "if all be redeemed then why believe!?" Why? Because, as a 'believer' I know there is no conflict between me and God – the bondage of fear has been removed:


Heb 2:14-15 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. cf. 1Jn 4:18; 5:4.


Faith in Christ appropriates this saving of the soul this releasing from bondage, but this saving is not in a "next life" heavenly sense, no, this saving means the restoration of the inner life here and now – as King David prayed: "He restores my soul" [Psa 23:3] – this is the perpetual work of the Spirit i.e., sanctification – the maintaining of what has been eternally established. cf. Heb 10:14. This is the reality of being 'born again', the reality of 'salvation' – comprehending and apprehending the Kingdom. To not do so is NOT to be outside the Kingdom, but is to not fully appreciate or experience the blessings of it – for all are under His Domain [Act 17:26-29; Psa 24:1]. It is similar to that of illegal immigrants, not knowing the peace, security and assurance of the legal status of citizenry – hence subject to the bondage of fear.


Fulfilled Grace' acknowledges this reality of a reconciled humanity in line with the Scriptures:
Gen 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."

Has God by the life giving faithfulness of Christ justified the nations?


Jn 1:9 That [Christ] was the true Light which, coming into the world, gives light to every man.

Jn 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin [the offence] of the world!

Jn 6:33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
Has Jesus taken away the sin of the world by the sacrifice of himself, so bringing light and life i.e., redemption to every man? Or does "every" not mean that?


Jn 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Jn 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Did Jesus really draw "all" to himself, "tasting death" so that the world might be saved?


Rom 3:3-4a For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not!

Jn 12:47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.


1Tim 1:13 …although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Rom 11:32-33 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!


1Tim 2:4-6 …who [God] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Was God's mighty work and desire for humanity really hamstrung by unbelief, or was it the opportunity for the exercising of His great mercy?



Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the offence. For if by the one man's offence many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

Rom 5:18-19 Therefore, as through one man's offence judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

1Cor 15:21-22 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Clearly "many" means "all" – and it was the soon coming Parousia that made and declared the many-all, righteous!


2Cor 5:14-15, 19 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. ...that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

1Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

Col 1:20 …and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
"having made peace" – was it a perfect or partial peace, how broad was Christ's world?


John 4:42 Then they said to the woman, "Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world."

1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Saviour of the world.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.

1Tim 4:10 For to this end we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

He is the Saviour of "all" men – especially the faith sanctified first-fruit saints.

The comprehensive scope of redemption for all is scripturally sound, and only our limited view of it causes us to do the following:









We have turned Jesus' statement "I am the way the truth and the life – no one comes to the Father but by me" into a conditional clause, making it a caveat for conversion. Jesus was in fact stating and declaring the actuality and centrality of his mission in redeeming and reconciling humanity back to God – it is because of Jesus alone that mankind is brought to God, through Jesus alone that we are able to come before Him; it was HIS work he was announcing not ours. We have erred and added to Jn 14:6 by turning it into a formula for faith.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]This whole area of "faith" in the light of 'Fulfilled Grace' is quite interesting. It is the faith of Christ [faithfulness] that wrought redemption; it is faith in Christ that accesses salvation i.e., the active knowledge – assurance of our justification i.e., being declared by God "My people."[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Much of what has been touted as our faith response to God is better understood as the faith response of Christ in his obedience to the Father i.e., his faithfulness. This is not discounting active faith on behalf of believers, for surely that is a given in Scripture e.g., Heb 11:6 and Gal 3:36 et al. There are however enough scriptures that place the onus of faith on Christ in his work of salvation – in the greater sense of that word. The following verses from the KJV reflect the Greek text better on this point. They all show the action of faith being on the part of Christ and NOT the believer, as is reflected in many modern translations:[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][Note: the promise - [Greek epangelia –[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]επαγγελια] means assurance [Liddell & Scott] i.e., of redemption – so it is those that believe, that experience this promise or assurance, not unlike the "especially of those who believe" of 1Tim 4:10. Or as the apostle John wrote - that inner witness:[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]1Jn 5:10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[Suede]

Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith [i.e., Christ's faithfulness], preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all, and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

All of the above focus on the work of Christ when viewed in line with the Greek text which runs true of Paul's words:


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Similar to "the just shall LIVE by faith" of Rom 1:17. The emphasis being not on the means FAITH but on the ends LIVE i.e., the just shall live because of faith – the faith of Christ. Paul's from "faith to faith" being similar to his from "glory to glory" - as of by the Spirit of the Lord. 2Cor 3:18.
So what of the tenets of personal faith? – confession and believing. Paul said:


Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Those who do not believe either through ignorance or arrogance still seek to justify themselves according to their own means of self righteousness [Rom 10:3] – not being aware that their righteousness has been established through Christ. His justifying faithfulness restoring humanity unto God i.e., reconciliation – atonement [Rom 5:11]. One's faith response to this gains access into the arena of life, releasing the joy of salvation.


Rom 5:1-2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.




The above verses show the dual nature of the workings of faith – both Christ's and the believer. Humanity having been justified by Christ's faith is at peace with God – from His perspective. Having come to belief i.e., faith, the believer in turn accesses by faith the grace in which because of Christ, humanity now stands [reconciled], and so rejoices and experiences the hope of glory. This is the difference between the 'righteousness of faith' as seen in following the Greek text as reflected in the KJV and YLT of Romans 3 – bringing redemption [man's state], and that of Romans 4 where Abraham's faith is credited to him for righteousness [the believer's standing], being brought into vital relationship with God i.e., salvation, the assurance of


being reconciled, as Isaiah said: "This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD." Isa 54:17b.


The righteousness that was accredited to Abraham's account was just that, credit. Abraham was not righteous of his own accord, nor any prior to the work of Christ [Rom 3:10]. Abraham's faith did not secure him the condition [state] of righteous before God – his faith gained access to provisional righteousness [standing] i.e., it was "credited" or held in abeyance for him – not unlike credit card 'reward points' that are "credited" to one's account – not until later redeemed at maturity. The thrust of Scripture was that not until he was perfected with the rest of the saints would he have attained the state or condition of promised righteousness.


Heb 11:39-40 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. cf. Heb 11:13.


Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
We see further the provisional nature of this righteousness in the first-fruit saints of the "this generation" time frame AD30-70 from the literal reading of Paul in Romans 4:


Rom 4:23-24 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, but also for us [1Cor 10:11]. It is about to be [mello] imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead. cf. Rom 3:26 regarding the demonstration of His righteousness at this present time.


That which had been accredited, or held in abeyance for those that believed was about to mature, was ready to be fulfilled in the Parousia of Christ – bringing in the age of righteousness 2Pet 3:13, thus bringing to fruition the outworking of their salvation [Phil 2:12] through Christ on behalf of the whole harvest, finding consummation in the resurrection.


Thus in Christ's Parousia provisional righteousness was fulfilled and complete, becoming the promised righteousness. So righteousness being established the promise to Abraham is fulfilled – all families of the earth blessed [Gen 12:3]; thus righteousness was established in Christ's Coming for all humanity.


So, the state of righteousness equates to the reconciliation of humanity – redemption [Rom 3] through the faithfulness of Christ. The standing in righteousness equates to salvation – the transforming of the soul [Rom 4], as exampled in Abraham – this is how "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness" [Rom 4:3] is to be understood.


Further, Paul in Rom 10:6-8 is drawing on Deut 30, along with the subsequent passages dealing with the blessings and the curses of walking or not walking with God. Not walking with God does not nullify God nor make Him non existent – it does however miss the divine goodness in more specific ways, though He is good to all [Lk 6:35].


Rom 10:9 …that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Seen in the first-fruit setting we have the dual sense of "being saved" from the coming wrath of AD70 – a frequent theme of Paul [Rom 1:18; 2:5-9; Col 3:6; 1Thess 1:10; 2:16; 5:9], and the ongoing transformative work of salvation – the deliverance from the willful desire to transgress [1Jn 3:6, 9]. This is evident from verse 10 where both "believes and confession" in the Greek are in the present continuous tense – not a one time singular event as such, but a continuing reality, or as Paul says: "conversation" i.e., life style.


Rom 10:10 For with the heart one [continually] believes unto righteousness [into being justified], and with the mouth [continual] confession is made unto salvation [into being saved].

Confessing and believing then, being expressions of faith make the pre-existing condition of righteousness effectual for the believer in that active faith taps into the blessing of righteousness [Gal 3:9]. But confession and belief do not establish righteousness – Christ's atoning work of obedience alone established righteousness.


Paul said: "we believe therefore we speak" 2Cor 4:13. Coming to the knowledge [belief] of the condition wherein Christ has already placed us [our state] [Rom 5:1-2] will bring with it the accompanying confession, this is redemption producing the believer [our standing], NOT vice versa. Just as confession is part of the outworking of salvation, so then, believing into righteousness is for righteousness' outworking, not the attaining of it – for the state of righteousness is imputed not according to our faith, but Christ's faith, and his alone. This verse is the only one in the entire New Testament where these two words believes and confession are rendered in the passive voice – hence into being justified/saved, being brought into the blessings of Redemption through the archway of faith – that which comprehends and apprehends [born again] God's Kingdom i.e., salvation – the transformation of the inner man, the saving of the soul. That is why …He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. Heb 7:25.

To summarize: The biblical term "salvation" is as broad an expression as one can find in relation to the ministration of God's grace; however the turns of phrase to be saved or being saved must be understood as being descriptive of the subject to which it is being applied; and as explained above there are a number of different biblical aspects to what being saved means. Pertaining to REDEMPTION everyone IS saved, having been delivered from sin's offence – adjudged so by God i.e., reconciled. Likewise, just as humanity was not involved in the imputation of guilt through Adam's sin – adjudged so by God, so man was not involved with his redemption-reconciliation either, that was between God and Christ – man however was the recipient of it, the beneficiary.
Thus there was established through the Cross of Christ a broad all encompassing unilateral and universal deliverance [Heb 9:26] – what we call salvation; it brought redemption-reconciliation TO the whole world – collectively. This redemptive and reconciling act of God in turn has the potential of bringing a personal deliverance – again, what we call salvation, to those OF the world – individually. Thus humanity truly IS already saved objectively [de jure – in principle, in law] and "in Christ" collectively, yet when one comes into a personal revelation of Christ's meritorious grace this salvation truly works subjectively [de facto – in reality] an apprehension, acceptance, appropriation and application of Christ's saving work, individually – and THIS IS the assurance of salvation.


This once for all delivering work of Calvary which brought humanity's corporate redemptive reconciliation,had and has nothing to do with man's personal individual belief system. However, the salvation that comes from this redemption is what is experienced in the life those who through personal faith in Christ embrace what Paul taught as – the renewing of the mind i.e., the saving of the soul. This in the stance of the believer is the veracity of belief and confession, but does not change the status of humanity as being wholly, and in every respect before God and by His means alone, redeemed and reconciled.


Eph 3:14-19 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height-- to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

 

[Suede]

Be with you soon . . .

No worries my friend. LOL, actually now I'm going to be out til at least Sunday night! But we'll pick it up, take care,

SUEDE

 

[Suede]

IamRedeemed,

+++Actually, in study of the whole counsel of text, one would have to be completely blinded spiritually not to know that is most certainly IS untrue.+++

You'd think that with things, but it simply isn't true. People in general believe odd things.

+++Well, I can assure you I didn't make it up.+++

How can Universalists who don't believe in hell make Jesus a hell monger? That doesn't make any sense.

+++Those who believe the Words of God, which includes hell, are called that and worse by Unies, and since Jesus also knows there is hell, which can be proven by the text, then He is no less of a hell monger than the rest of us who do believe Him and His Word.+++

"hell' in scripture is VERY different than what you want it to be. The idea you have of 'hell' is a later very pagan idea of hell or hades.

+++Yes, thank you for admitting that you know this. The refiner's fire is for believers, not haters of God, and it is not the believers themselves who will be burned up but their works that are not found to be gold (works in faith vs works of the flesh) that will be burned up. (wood, hay, and stubble). But again, the refiner's fire is for believers and NOT unbelievers. (Unlike the lake of fire, which is for those who are condemned having not believed on the Son of God. (John 3:18-19) +++

Since our God is a consuming fire, there's really no difference in the two.

+++But regardless of how you slice it either form of Uni belief is false.+++

Then it should be easy to disprove...so far....it hasn't happened.

+++There is a Hell, and there is a Lake of Fire which the Scriptures tell us is the SECOND DEATH. Not the second life, and there is NO Scriptures that speak of ANYONE coming out of the Lake of Fire and into eternity WITH the Lord. None, zilch, zero, nada.+++

First of all, rules of logic state that lack of evidence is not evidence lacking. There's also no scripture to contradict what I say. The second death is not a permanent place for the 'wicked', there is no Bible verse showing that.

+++So, tell me how can one Uni believer there is no hell at all, while another believes there is a hell, but it is more like purgatory? +++

"hell" is traditionally understood from a pagan point of view, not a Jewish one. This is what Universalists reject is the misinterpretation and misunderstanding of 'hell/hades/sheol'.

+++And why is it yet other Unies even believe satan and his cohorts
will also be saved?+++

Why not? They are God's creation too. And ALL that God created was good. Sin exists apart from Satan, Satan was always under God's control, God was ALWAYS in power.

+++Scripture in context throughout the Word of God from Genesis to Revelation show clearly that NONE of those beliefs are true, or if you would rather that ALL of those beliefs are FALSE.+++

Sorry, but they are true. Your understanding of scripture is false. I've posted lots of scriptures and have not seen one refuted by you.

+++Whether they know it or not, they CANNOT get in AT ALL, if they
do not repent and believe in THIS LIFE.+++

God's love and HIS faithfulness is NOT hampered by mankind. As I explained to Shammah, use the Bible to explain itself. In Exodus, ALL of Israel is 'saved' from Egypt, whether they believed in God (or even in Moses). It simply did not matter what they believed!! God said He would save them, and HE DID. Individual belief has zero bearing on the power of God to reconcile and save mankind.

Rom 3:3-4a For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not!


Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Rom 11:32-33 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!


1Tim 2:4-6 …who [God] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.


+++Well, actually there is. And I hate to tell you this, but "nanny nanny boo boo" is a lame argument.+++

I should say so.

+++The fact that it is not there, shows that your doctrine is based on someone's wishful thinking. I can't even call that doctrine an 'argument of silence' (which would also be err), because Scripture clearly teaches otherwise and is not silent on it.+++

Then it will be no problem for you to post scriptures. You can start by refuting mine.

+++Scripture that refutes the doctrine is completely ignored time and time again, and the Unies end up resorting to ad hominem attacks, or off topic diversions, all kinds of strawmen etc., over and over ad nauseum.+++

Actually, that's usually what we get.

+++God does have the power over good and evil, that is true, however, that is not a fact that supports Universalism in the least.+++

Of course it does! You are contradicting yourself by admitting that God has power over good and evil, but that he is powerless to save evil people, which means that evil people are not under the power of God. God says he will save ALL of mankind, that Jesus is the savior of ALL mankind. But you say otherwise.

+++God will not force His gift of salvation or His love upon any man.+++

We don't have a choice in the matter, God is God, not us. Read Romans 9.

+++He has given man the right and the power to make choices. If God was going to make the choice for us, we would not need to even know the Gospel, would need to know nothing about repentence and denying ourselves and taking up our crosses and making no provision for the flesh, nor about running the race, nor about the crown of Life that is given to those who endure to the end. And most of the rest of the Scripture could just be thrown away as it would be inapplicable.+++

No, that's not what the Bible says at all, nor what Universalism says.

+++That is incorrect. It is not "reading back into the text" but actually
derives from the text itself. Eternal damnation IS going to be the judgment of many. +++

Sorry, but judgment and damnation are two different things in all ways.

+++Yes He is. And He has revealed to us and commissioned believers everywhere to reveal to the world, His gift that is available to all who will repent and believe,+++

We are to tell people that God's grace has smiled on them and that He loves them and has saved them. Therefore, from that, they should believe and be righteous.

+++before the time of grace ends and judgment begins.+++

Hmmm, that day may have already happened...a long time ago...

+++And you cannot call it "trusting God", if our trust is not based or rooted in the Word of God, but rather in someone's wishful thinking and perhaps placing our trust in our own wishful thinking.+++

I agree. I trust God and His faithfulness that He did in fact do what He said He was going to do. It's a wonderful thing.

Alright, well I'm off for a few days on a much needed vacation, I'll chat with you soon, take care,

SUEDE

 

[J4Jesus]

No Universalism is not true. Its a lie of the devil so many will be lost

 

[msmorality]

No Universalism is not true. Its a lie of the devil so many will be lost

Really ? So Christ work was a failure for so many to be lost. Thats a sad way to look at it.

 

[~RENEE~]

In addition, the topic of Universalism may only be discussed in the Unorthodox Theology forum.

........ I'm gonna leave a reply then report this very old thread

 

[~RENEE~]

If it was true then God would not be holy and He would wink at sin.

God is holy and He does not winik at sin.

 

[HEisGoodalways]

Just as much danger in the right hand field as well

I voted I dont know. I had always thought that no all wouldnt be saved, however the universalist thread in C & E makes some interesting arguements

Where is that thread?

 

[lismore]

Universalism is the belief that no matter what, all people, including angels, will find salvation.

Hello

What do you mean by Universalism?

Do you mean that all religions lead to God?

Or do you mean that Jesus died for the whole world and that God will reconcile everyone to himself in the end?

There are two different beliefs I have heard, both thrown together under the same label. Perhaps some people are a little unsure which one you mean.

 

[enoch son]

Hello

What do you mean by Universalism?

Do you mean that all religions lead to God?

Or do you mean that Jesus died for the whole world and that God will reconcile everyone to himself in the end?

There are two different beliefs I have heard, both thrown together under the same label. Perhaps some people are a little unsure which one you mean.

I'm a member of the ROCK! (R-reconciled O-of C-christ K-kingdom)
It say's my friend the world is already reconcile to God roman 5;10
2 Cor.5;18-20 As for the dead thing of religions it is written "each in thier owen order" I have no idea what God's order or plan is and it's timing. I only know in the end Philp. 2;9-11 will come true because God say's it will.

 

[Svt4Him]

~MOD HAT~

Thread closed for review.

/MOD HAT​