Shammah,
+++The faith vs. works discourse is entirely about salvation. The entire point of it is that salvation is not achieved by our works but received by our faith in Christ.+++
Well, certainly that's an issue with righteousness no doubt. But it's not a salvation issue.
That's odd, then why does it say it is by grace through faith that we are SAVED?
+++But where you are mistaken is this...the passage does not say we gain righteousness by faith...the specific term is salvation. What Ephesians 2:8-9 is clear on is that salvation cannot be achieved by works...it is a gift of God's grace received through faith.+++
True, it is God's grace that saves us, not faith. If it were faith that saved us, that too could be a work. We are saved because GOD is faithful, not because WE are faithful. You being faithful is an outward expression because you know the truth about Christ. You are not faithful because your understanding came first, but you are faithful because God called you to be a servant to Him. HOWEVER, this does not mean that non believers are NOT saved.
Rom 3:3-4a "For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not!"
The Bible can often explain itself, whether in a literal fashion or in a metaphorical/symbolic fashion. Let's go back to the Exodus. Israel was 'saved' from Egypt whether Israel as a whole or as individuals believed in God or not. Their personally belief or lack there of had NOTHING to do with whether God saved them or not. Why? Because GOD is faithful, and that's what matters. One's faith or lack of faith does not and can not negate God's faithfulness. God said he would save the people from Israel, and that's exactly what happened. It did not take a personal belief, God did not state that He would only save 'believers'. That's on a small scale. Look at the Bible as a whole and it's the same thing. God is pulling people out of the curse that Adam caused. And like the Exodus, it has nothing to do with one's personal belief. God said He would send a messiah to undo what Adam's curse that effected all men, and He did that unconditionally. Here's another analogy,
"You do not have to believe in gravity for gravity to have its total effect on you, as much as someone else who does believe in and understands gravity – belief or non-belief does not negate the effect of gravity upon you. So, what does "believing" in gravity do for you? It will save you – you will not do what you know to be contrary to gravity and thus endanger your life. Through experience-observance you conclude that gravity is an absolute – regardless of belief. Believing in gravity however makes it beneficial – rather than struggling against it. So, whether we believe it or not, absolute truth affects us – however, it can benefit us greatly if we accept it, just as it is."
Rom 1:17 For in it [the Gospel] the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
If I understand what you're saying, you are equating God's faithfulness to perform His Word with the faith needed for salvation.
God is faithful to do what He says He will do, and He is faithful to us even when we are faithless.
But let's look at another scripture real quick:
And brought them out, and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
And they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:30-31
According to the scripture...there is something WE MUST DO in order to be saved. If what you are saying is true, Paul would have answered, "NOTHING! You're already saved!"
Instead, Paul answered the Jailer...
Pisteuo on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Pisteuo is the verb form of the noun
pistis which by the way means
faith. Verbs are action words...so Paul's answer to the Jailer was to be saved, you must actively have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
So...if we, as the Jailer did, have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ...then God is faithful to perform His Word and we will receive the free gift of His salvation.
+++What did Hebrews 11 say their unreceived promise was? Look at verse 16: But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
Why is that important? Look at verse 13 again: These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.+++
Yes, in the OT, people did and went to Sheol, not to heaven. They had faith that God would be faithful to them and redeem them to heaven, which of course God has done.
Sheol or hades is often translated as hell, but it is not the same as gehenna...hell is the place of the dead...period. Scripture makes it clear that there is an impassable gulf in hell between torment and paradise. And for the record, Jesus said He went to Paradise, not torment.
So, yes Jesus redeemed the OT saints. But there is no evidence that those in torment were effected by that.
+++But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down from above) or, "'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:6-10
Notice any similarities?
The Bible says that the expression of our faith by our confession of our belief in Christ that receives the gift of salvation. That's pretty clear...cut and dried. This is one of the basic tenets of those who hold "nicean" related belief systems.+++
You confess because you KNOW you are saved. That is the difference between you and say an unbeliever - you 'get it', unbelievers do not. You understand that,
Rom 5:10 "For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
That is why you confess and have faith. Because you understand that you are saved, non believers do not. You were saved when you were an unbeliever Shammah, but you came to the understanding that you were saved and became a Christian. But again, this does not mean that people that do not 'get it' are not saved.
Romans 3:3,4a "What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? May it never be!"
And here we see Paul saying that though Israel did not believe, ALL Israel would be saved. Why? Because mankind's salvation depends on God's faithfulness to do what HE promised. It has zero bearing on our faithfulness. Our faithfulness is because we KNOW we are saved, that's what separates us from non believers.
"For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written.." Romans 11:25,26a
And they did not 'confess' that Jesus is Lord, quite the opposite. So..is Paul 'wrong' and you are correct? No. Paul understand the overall faithfulness of God to redeem ALL of mankind.
This is a bit much, but for the most part, I think we are saying very similar things. The difference I perceive is the paradigm of the understanding of "all".
A few pages back, I think Mathetes did a bit on the term "all" that expressed my understanding of it very well. Maybe it would do some good to peruse the thread and check it out. I looked briefly and didn't see it.
If you're reading this Mathetes, maybe you remember where it was and could quote or link to it for us...I liked your perspective and it might save some redundancy.
But briefly..."all" is an inclusive word. The question about who or what is included or excluded from its reach needs to be answered in both local and universal context of scripture. Here are a few examples:
Yes, God will redeem Israel, but the Word establishes some boundaries of inclusion:
Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness. And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed. Isaiah 1:27-28
Here's another:
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes (pisteuo) in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."
All is..whosoever has faith in Christ...
"He who believes (pisteuo) in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe (pisteuo) is condemned already, because he has not believed (pisteuo) in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." John 3:16-21
He who does not have faith in Christ is condemned...errr...that doesn't fit into the same category of "all" as those who do have faith in Christ, does it?
And one more...
He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.
Notice...not all received Him.
But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe (pisteuo) on His name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:11-13
So the power to become sons of God is inclusively given to ALL who receive Christ AND once again we see the redundancy of the need for
pisteuo.
I might add that the reconciliation of Romans 5:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:18-20 is not the equivalent of salvation. They are different terms...without the ministry of Christ's reconciliation, salvation would be impossible.
+++The curse? Do you understand what happened to Adam and Eve when they sinned? They died spiritually. Not simply "going to die physically", but completely dead spiritually.+++
My point exactly. Adam and Eve were going to physically die regardless, but when they did sin, they were removed from God, dead spiritually as you noted. This is why people in the OT went to Sheol and not heaven when they died. Why? Because God had not yet redeemed ALL of mankind from the curse that affected ALL of mankind.
+++Why do you think Jesus said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."?+++
Right. Believers make up the kingdom of God. But again, this does not mean that unbelievers are eternally damned.
Believe me, its not that I have any desire to see this happen, but those who aren't found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire. I didn't write it, but I can't just ignore it...and there is only one resurrection.
It is this resurrection that raises ALL the dead to stand before the Great White Throne...what
scriptural hope can you offer the man who stands at the Throne of Judgement who's name is not in the Book of Life?
"Don't worry, you will not surely die...it isn't real." ... ? Who's gospel is that?
+++This is the death we need to be saved from. And we have to do this while we're living. This is what Jesus was explaining in John 11 when He said, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."+++
Right, they will have eternal life. And Biblically, what is eternal life???
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." John 17:3
That's what I was talking about earlier - the difference between a believer and non believers. We KNOW we are saved.
I think the Bible makes it a little clearer...the difference between believers and unbelievers is the exercise of faith.
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth (pisteuo) in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth (pisteuo) in me shall never die."
Wow...this pisteuo thing is everywhere! Ya gotta have faith!!!!!!
+++If everyone gets born again, then there's a real problem...in the end...whoever is not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life is cast into the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:15 This is no refiner's fire...there is no mention of a resurrection from the second death. Its just not in the Bible.+++
The Book of Life typically in a Jewish sense refers to the living righteous...but as we have already seen, that doesn't have any bearing on whether one is 'saved' or not. And actually, the lake of fire could be viewed as a refiner's fire, death and hell itself are thrown into. So...it's not Hell as many assume it is...a place where the wicked are forever sent.
......
Sounds more like what John Lennon would say than Jesus. Try perusing the thread on this topic. This is just not scriptural, you won't find many here likely to swallow it, and I'm not going to chase it in redundancy.
The post has too many characters so I've stopped here. I'm not sure there was anything that hasn't already been addressed. If there is, forgive me..the post is too long and I'm tired.
