Universalism, Is it True?

[enoch son]

Now, reading some responses, I express concern over some conclusions. Perhaps it is because this is originally just a poll but I observe strange trails and slippery slopes and strawman arguments abounding.

I am a Holy Spirit-filled, Water Baptised, Tongue-speaking, Bible-believing, Charasmatic Faith seeking individual who by no choice of my own, had been exposed to God at a very young age. I cannot be persuaded that Jesus is not real; nor can I be told God is a figment of our imagination; nor can I say the gifts of God are dead; nor can I say that the truth of Scripture is not clear and today I come to you with a most somber and clear mind, with conviction and anchored by hope, that Christian Universalism (the belief that Jesus Christ saved all mankind) is a complete truth without fault.

Some here have asked, "I have never heard of this before" and you may have gone to your pastor to find clarity on this issue. A neutral position of Christian Universalism (also known as Universal Reconciliation) can be found on Wikipedia.org: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Reconciliation

Investigate these claims without bias, and just like most Christians who hold doctrines, not every individual who believes in the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation (Universalism) represents everyone who believes it. In otherwords, just as there are many sects and denominations of Christians who believe in a perpetual hell for sinners; there are many sects and denominations of Christians who believe in a temporary hell, or purgatory, or restoration for all sinners.

Blow me away!!! It doesn't take much of a look to see it does it? I just wish that 25 yrs. ago in bible school I had the wisdom to look.

 

[enoch son]

I am sorry but that is sick sadistic and insane.

Have you forgotten that God is love - 1 John 4:8
It is God's will for all to be saved
1 Timothy 2:3-6 - ...God our Savior; Who WILL have ALL MEN to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.

God is not willing that any perish 2 Peter 3:9
2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God's will cannot be thwarted
Job 23:13 - But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
God desires for all to be saved and He will save all.
Matthew 19:26 - with God all things are possible. [This verse is speaking about salvation]

Isaiah 46:9 - I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, [10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: [11] Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

God is almighty and all loving if He desires all to be saved then they will all be saved. God knows exactly what its going to take to where even the hardest sinner will surrender all to Him.

It's a wonderfull thing to see the great love and power of God for all His childern.

 

[enoch son]

There's a pretty big hole in your bucket here.

You're not discerning God's will very well...

It is not God's will that any should perish, it is not God's will that any should sin, it is not God's will for people's cars to crash, it is not God's will for people to get sick, it is not God's will for children to be abused and this could go on all day...point is that regardless of God's will these things can, do and will happen every day.

Why? Because you are not discerning the aspect of God's will the scripture is talking about...DESIRE.

When we violate God's desires, we force Him to make judgements that are intended to correct us and bring about His purpose in our lives.

The scriptures do make this clear...but these are clearly precepts for life and to construe them in equivalence with afterlife precepts is very thin ice.

God's purpose is to transform us back into His image. But if we are not born again, we aren't living and remain fashioned in the image of our father, the devil...the one who's image we were born with.

In the end, it is the image that makes the call...who's image are you in? Hell was created for the devil and those who did what? Took on his image...fell with him?

On judgement day those who's image is life will live. Those who's image is death will join it. The fire of Gehenna will not transform that image of death to the image of life...it is the abode of death.

Scripture does not define ANYTHING that happens following the Great White Throne Judgement. The most distant future word of prophecy recorded says that at the second death, whoever was not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Scripture doesn't clearly speak to any activity after this. Teaching that it does is based on deduction, which is perfectly fallible.

I think God say's that real well in 1 Tim 4-10 So weather you like it or not I'll kept speaking what God and not man laid on my heart.

 

[enoch son]

If there was no acceptance of Christ or God's covenant . . . then yes, that is where they are.

Actually YOU do not understand "God is Love" . . . because you fail to incorporate God's holiness and justice.

Wake up that why He wrote Heb. to make a conventant with Himself because man couldn't live up to his side. Opps I forgot your better then all the other men because you are saving yourself. I understand it real well it's hiddean in christ in god and thats where god hid me.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

No I do not agree with that and you know it. Thats not cool for you to even say that. Jesus Christ is God's greatest gift of love to His fallen creation.



God does not have multiple personality disorder. God's unfailing love is not separate from His just judgment. God does not change. God does not vary.

Psalms 116:5 - Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; yea, our God is merciful.

Isaiah 30:18 - And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.

Hmm... Judgment and Grace together. Those two couldnt possibly go together could they? The answer is yes! Judgment is good; harsh, but good. It is God's gace that He deals with us according to our sins so that He can reprove us.

Habakkuk 1:12 - Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

Judgment is for correction. Correction means to set right. When a parent punishes a child they do it in hope that the child will learn not to disobey and make the same mistake again. God is the Almighty Father who chastises to correct not to torture for all eternity.

God is righteous. He will not infinitly punish a finite being who make finite choices. The bible said that our life is like a vapor - is that really worthy of eternal torment? NO! The bible says that God's mercy endures FOREVER 42 times, and that Gods anger is for a moment. How can that be true is Eternal torment is true?

Psalms 30:5 - For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

Lamentations 3:31 - For the Lord will not cast off for ever: [32] But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.

Job 34:10 - ...far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity. [11] For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways. [12] Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

Job 4:17 - Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Job 34:23 - For he will not lay upon man more than right; that he should enter into judgment with God.

God will not chastise man more than he deserves and Eternal torment is more than any man deserves for a lifetime that is like a vapour in the wind. No one would ever send their worst enemy into a fiery hell FOREVER. No one would ever want someone to experience unimaginable pain without any hope of it ever ending. Neither does God. God told us to love our enemies shouldnt He do the same. It is true the wicked will reap what they sow in the "Lake of fire," but their chastisement will not last forever.

I plead with you. Please at least read the first article on my website. http://godsunfailinglove777.googlepages.com/home

No I do not agree with that and you know it. Thats not cool for you to even say that. Jesus Christ is God's greatest gift of love to His fallen creation.

Good. Then your contention about sick and sadistic should fall by the way side . . . God smote His own son with the wrath that we deserve . . . horrible ugly grotesque . . . destruction . . . PUNISHMENT. And do you think that those who reject Christ will escape this? NOT AT ALL. If the glorification of God's justice, righteousness and holiness of sinner's paying for their sin because they reject the work of the Cross is sadistic to you . . . then Jesus paying the same punishment should be sadistic to you also . . . yet it is not? It is beautiful? INDEED. IT IS GLORY. That is my point. The Cross isn't beautiful simply because He reconciles us to Himself . . . BUT ALSO BECAUSE HIS JUSTICE AND RIGHTEOUSNESS HAVE BEEN VINDICATED. The Cross is indeed beautifully glorious.

God does not have multiple personality disorder. God's unfailing love is not separate from His just judgment. God does not change. God does not vary.

Psalms 116:5 - Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; yea, our God is merciful.

Isaiah 30:18 - And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.

Hmm... Judgment and Grace together. Those two couldnt possibly go together could they? The answer is yes! Judgment is good; harsh, but good. It is God's gace that He deals with us according to our sins so that He can reprove us.

Those are COVENANT promises . . . nothing in there says that those who reject the work of the Cross will be benificiaries of the atonement . . . these are God's promises TO HIS PEOPLE.

Habakkuk 1:12 - Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

Judgment is for correction. Correction means to set right. When a parent punishes a child they do it in hope that the child will learn not to disobey and make the same mistake again. God is the Almighty Father who chastises to correct not to torture for all eternity.

Hab 1:12
12 Are You not from everlasting,
O LORD, my God, my Holy One?
We will not die.
You, O LORD, have appointed them to judge;
And You, O Rock, have established them to correct.
NASU

You have COMPLETELY missed the context . . . those who ARE JUDGES and ARE THE CORRECTORS ARE THE SAME. It is the Babylonians sent to CORRECT GOD'S PEOPLE. Bad, BAD hermeneutics bro. NOTHING in this verse speaks about God's eternal intention for those who are not within the covenant.

God is righteous. He will not infinitly punish a finite being who make finite choices. The bible said that our life is like a vapor - is that really worthy of eternal torment? NO! The bible says that God's mercy endures FOREVER 42 times, and that Gods anger is for a moment. How can that be true is Eternal torment is true?

Firstly God's mercy and anger statements are peculiar for the covenant. There is surely common grace . . . as the sun shines on all men alike . . . but AGAIN this says NOTHING about the eternal abode of the unrighteous.

Secondly, the whole philosophy about a temporal sin does not deserve eternal judgement is so much in error and uninformed. Read Heb 10 . . .

Heb 10:26-31
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment andTHE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
NASU

You think that the active rejection of the eternal blood of the Son of God and the turning away from the eternal love of the King who died for us will be a temporal issue?! NOT AT ALL.

Or Hebrews 6 . . . it is IMPOSSIBLE TO RENEW SUCH A ONE TO REPENTANCE? Your remedial concept of temporal punishment still require repentance does it not . . . yet here we have the impossibility.

Or how about the sin not forgiven in this age or the age to come?

You see here is the issue . . . the punishment is in lieu of the greatness of the crime right? Ok fine . . . the greatness of the crime here is NOT measured in the sense of the timefrime within which the act was commited . . . it is measured in light of the greatness of the One who has been offended and the greatness of the sin in reference to HIM. IOW, the grossness of sin is not found in the mere act . . . it is found in that God is INFINITELY glorious and ETERNALLY beautiful and one chooses to afront HIM. Sins are not measured. So the person who steals is the same as the one who murders . . . because the candy stolen at the store contains the same contempt for the Law and Character of God as the one who rapes and kills three four year old girls. They are both equivalent to throwing black paint on the Mona Lisa . . . the gravity of both are in measure to the One sinned against . . . in this case GOD.
This is why Jesus MUST be divine . . . HE OFFERED HIMSELF THROUGH THE ETERNAL SPIRIT . . . because His blood must be of infinite value to cover sin infinitely . . . otherwise a mere man could have born the cross.

God will not chastise man more than he deserves and Eternal torment is more than any man deserves for a lifetime that is like a vapour in the wind. No one would ever send their worst enemy into a fiery hell FOREVER. No one would ever want someone to experience unimaginable pain without any hope of it ever ending. Neither does God. God told us to love our enemies shouldnt He do the same. It is true the wicked will reap what they sow in the "Lake of fire," but their chastisement will not last forever.

My comment above suffices.

Not to mention . . . you have exalted a system of belief above the authority of the Scriptures . . . fine . . . but don't call the belief biblical.

Matt 25 and Rev 14 are pretty clear . . . so either the Scriptures lie . . . or God is Love AND people suffer eternally.

I have seen the arguements and exegetical breakdowns and attempts at trying to address these passages (not to mention the plethora more . . .) and they are feable and irresponsible as far as proper hermeneutics go.

but go ahead if you like . . .

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Wake up that why He wrote Heb. to make a conventant with Himself because man couldn't live up to his side. Opps I forgot your better then all the other men because you are saving yourself. I understand it real well it's hiddean in christ in god and thats where god hid me.

AD HOMINEM.

Will you ever come up with something substantial?

Your rendering of 1 Tim 4:10 is weak. First, does it say all will be saved? NO. It simply asserts the title of Christ as savior . . . which He is to all men . . . that does not mean all will relate to Him as such. AND you obviously fail to see the Greek malista . . . ESPECIALLY means PARTICULARLY . . . hence He relates to the believers SPECIALLY . . . His title of savior is NOT JUST A TITLE FOR THEM . . . BUT HIS PECULIAR RELATIONSHIP WITH THOSE IN THE COVENANT.

Sorry . . .

 

[enoch son]

AD HOMINEM.

Will you ever come up with something substantial?

Your rendering of 1 Tim 4:10 is weak. First, does it say all will be saved? NO. It simply asserts the title of Christ as savior . . . which He is to all men . . . that does not mean all will relate to Him as such. AND you obviously fail to see the Greek malista . . . ESPECIALLY means PARTICULARLY . . . hence He relates to the believers SPECIALLY . . . His title of savior is NOT JUST A TITLE FOR THEM . . . BUT HIS PECULIAR RELATIONSHIP WITH THOSE IN THE COVENANT.

Sorry . . .

You mean the conentant with himself because man is to full of himself to see the truth. SAVED BY GRACE! And that was a gift of GOD. Kept trying you might buy it yet. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

You mean the conentant with himself because man is to full of himself to see the truth. SAVED BY GRACE! And that was a gift of GOD. Kept trying you might buy it yet. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whatever dude . . . the text is what the text is . . .

 

[StudentoftheWord]

Whatever dude . . . the text is what the text is . . .

"You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men." And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! (Mark 7:8-10)

You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40)

 

[imperfectchristian]

God is Love...if there is one thing I am sure about it is this. I could deduce all sorts of things from this simple statement.

What do I know about love, let alone God's love. Very little if any I would say which is why I steer away from being dogmatic and I encourage my brothers and sisters to do the same in this area.

What I do know about love...I love my children...if someone were to try and hurt them, I would hurt them first and as long as they threatened my children, I would not take the slightest bit of concern about their well being (physical, eternal or otherwise).

I promise you...I am a very loving and forgiving person, but if a person threatens my family ...I'll burn them to the ground and scatter the ashes. This is the flip side of love...I tell people sometimes what I heard a drill sergeant tell some people who were thinking they could take advantage of him when he treated them like human beings....he said "don't mistake my kindness for weakness."

God is not mocked. He loved the world enough that He gave His only Son, but he will grind to powder those who refuse to be pliable under his authority.

I used to advocate Christian Universalism for many of the same reasons some have given here in this thread. I changed my mind though.

I believe God does give people a choice. I love my wife, but I would not force her to love me. I would not want her if the only way I could have her love was for me to force it upon her.

Honestly...if I tried that...from what we know about torchure....would it work? would you eventually love the person that pours out their wrath upon you...well that depends on the condition of your heart.

So then it really is a choice that is made in the heart.

It is not that God is unwilling to forgive, it is the consequences that the choices of the heart bring about.

Satan does not want to be forgiven because he is evil and this is the same potential fate of those who are indifferent to righteousness.

Having said all that (and I could go on and on) these are not the reasons I changed my mind about Christian Universalism.

I changed my mind when one night I got down on my knees and poured my heart out to God. I had been judging God on some things.

"God I know you are love and I know you are all powerful...and I just don't understand why you allow bad things to happen...why God...why?"

That night I purposely decided I would worship Him and serve Him alone regardless. The truth was, my loyalties were divided. Look at Abraham....he loved and believed in God, but then he was faced with sacrificing his only son.

If he would have had the mind set "God is love" and refuse to do this because it goes against love as he understood it and as he wanted God to be, then he would have missed the greatest opportunity to believe and be faithful to God and to truly put God first.

Are we truly putting God first or are we putting our version / interpretation of God first?

If it is the latter then we miss perhaps the greatest opportunity of our Christian walk which is complete trust in God.

I think it is better to be like Job and say "the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away...blessed be the name of the Lord." God is worthy to be praised and that is not diminished even in the slightest if we sinners (which all of us are) burn in the lake of fire for eternity.

God is God so let us desire to be His people.

Instead of trying to make God more socially acceptable let us proclaim the only acceptable way to God. Jesus!

Let us embrace righteousness and justice as well as compassion and mercy.

Let God be true and every man a liar.

 

[SUNSTONE]

If God loves the unbeliever all the way up till he dies and he still hasn't repented, then does God no longer loves them and sends them to hell.

How does God turn love on or off?

 

[ShammahBenJudah]

God is Love...if there is one thing I am sure about it is this. I could deduce all sorts of things from this simple statement.

What do I know about love, let alone God's love. Very little if any I would say which is why I steer away from being dogmatic and I encourage my brothers and sisters to do the same in this area.

What I do know about love...I love my children...if someone were to try and hurt them, I would hurt them first and as long as they threatened my children, I would not take the slightest bit of concern about their well being (physical, eternal or otherwise).

I promise you...I am a very loving and forgiving person, but if a person threatens my family ...I'll burn them to the ground and scatter the ashes. This is the flip side of love...I tell people sometimes what I heard a drill sergeant tell some people who were thinking they could take advantage of him when he treated them like human beings....he said "don't mistake my kindness for weakness."

God is not mocked. He loved the world enough that He gave His only Son, but he will grind to powder those who refuse to be pliable under his authority.

I used to advocate Christian Universalism for many of the same reasons some have given here in this thread. I changed my mind though.

I believe God does give people a choice. I love my wife, but I would not force her to love me. I would not want her if the only way I could have her love was for me to force it upon her.

Honestly...if I tried that...from what we know about torchure....would it work? would you eventually love the person that pours out their wrath upon you...well that depends on the condition of your heart.

So then it really is a choice that is made in the heart.

It is not that God is unwilling to forgive, it is the consequences that the choices of the heart bring about.

Satan does not want to be forgiven because he is evil and this is the same potential fate of those who are indifferent to righteousness.

Having said all that (and I could go on and on) these are not the reasons I changed my mind about Christian Universalism.

I changed my mind when one night I got down on my knees and poured my heart out to God. I had been judging God on some things.

"God I know you are love and I know you are all powerful...and I just don't understand why you allow bad things to happen...why God...why?"

That night I purposely decided I would worship Him and serve Him alone regardless. The truth was, my loyalties were divided. Look at Abraham....he loved and believed in God, but then he was faced with sacrificing his only son.

If he would have had the mind set "God is love" and refuse to do this because it goes against love as he understood it and as he wanted God to be, then he would have missed the greatest opportunity to believe and be faithful to God and to truly put God first.

Are we truly putting God first or are we putting our version / interpretation of God first?

If it is the latter then we miss perhaps the greatest opportunity of our Christian walk which is complete trust in God.

I think it is better to be like Job and say "the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away...blessed be the name of the Lord." God is worthy to be praised and that is not diminished even in the slightest if we sinners (which all of us are) burn in the lake of fire for eternity.

God is God so let us desire to be His people.

Instead of trying to make God more socially acceptable let us proclaim the only acceptable way to God. Jesus!

Let us embrace righteousness and justice as well as compassion and mercy.

Let God be true and every man a liar.

Good post, bro. I can really appreciate your heart on the matter. You sound a lot like me.

Man didn't teach me what I believe...I basically dropped what man taught me and sought the Lord like you. Some of what I was taught was good, so I picked it up again. I've learned that other things don't fit into the line and precept structure of the Word.

This particualr notion is one of those that doesn't seem to fit into the structural lines and precepts of the Word. To base a doctrine on a few random precepts and scattered scriptures that mean something different in their original context isn't the way to understand God.

I've grown so weary of hearing...

"You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men." And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! (Mark 7:8-10)

You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40)

In the psychology of deception, the first step is to cause doubt in what one believes. Any time someone wields this scripture, big red flags go up.

If one convinces another that what they believe isn't true because its all "tradition" (or whatever other tactic they want to use), the weaker minded may cast off their hold to what they believe and become pliable in the deceiver's hands.

While it is true that there are some things in all of our belief structures that need to be corrected, the truth will be sufficient in the power of God's Spirit to make those corrections. Anything beyond that may become manipulative in nature and I don't personally have any tolerance for that.

I've been asking and asking for this...we keep coming up with ramdom quotations and interpretations that don't fit in context.

Can anyone spell out the lines and precepts that solidly establish this as anything but a notion?

It doesn't take a shoehorn or diceing of words to make the truth fall in place with the truth. But so far, that's all I'm hearing.

 

[ShammahBenJudah]

I think God say's that real well in 1 Tim 4-10 So weather you like it or not I'll kept speaking what God and not man laid on my heart.

I'm not a particular follower of Spurgeon, but you may find this of interest.

"I am told it is my duty to say that all men have been redeemed, and I am told that there is a Scriptural warrant for it—"Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." Now, that looks like a very, very great argument indeed on the other side of the question. For instance, look here. "The whole world is gone after Him." Did all the world go after Christ? "Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children," and "the whole world lieth in the wicked one." Does "the whole world" there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were "of God?" The words "world" and "all" are used in seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Particular Redemption, A Sermon, 28 Feb 1858).

Keep in mind it is not God's will for us to die. But we will.

It was not God's will for us to sin. But we already have and probably will do it again.

As you read this post, odds are that somewhere in the world, an innocent child will draw his or her last breath and give in to starvation or disease. Was that God's will? Was it God's desire for this child to suffer and die? Is our God so cruel?

No, of course He isn't. So why is it so difficult to discern the difference between what God wishes of us and what we actually do?

God isn't schizophrenic, He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He makes his wishes, purposes and judgements clear to us.

Then He says, "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live."

God isn't the One making the world the muddle of filth and insanity it is today. We (mankind) are. We aren't dying because God is evil. We are dying because of our choices.

God makes this issue painfully clear. If we choose blessing and life, we will have it. And if we choose cursing and death, we will have it.

Moreover all these curses shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you, until you are destroyed (shamad - annihilated, exterminated), because you did not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you. Deuteronomy 28:45

So that there may not be among you man or woman or family or tribe, whose heart turns away today from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations, and that there may not be among you a root bearing bitterness or wormwood; and so it may not happen, when he hears the words of this curse, that he blesses himself in his heart, saying, 'I shall have peace, even though I follow the dictates of my heart'--as though the drunkard could be included with the sober.

The Lord would not spare him; for then the anger of the Lord and His jealousy would burn against that man, and every curse that is written in this book would settle on him, and the Lord would blot out his name from under heaven. Deuteronomy 29:18-20

Yes, it breaks His heart when mankind chooses death. No, He doesn't want us to have it. But He isn't the One with the power to choose. We are.

Do you really believe that because God doesn't like a man's choice, He will burn him in hell time and again until the man makes the choice God wants him to make?

How sadistic is that? If God wanted man to absolutely do things His way, wouldn't it be better to make robots who have no choice? It would have saved us all, including Jesus a lot of pain and suffering.

 

[StudentoftheWord]

It was not God's will for us to sin. But we already have and probably will do it again

If you are going to discuss something, can you make sure that what you are stating is in fact a fact.

God desires that none should perish as well, yet every man has perished, there is not one man who has not died (you think two, Enoch and Elijah, did not die; but Scripture tells differently), even Jesus died.

God desires that no man should perish, and yet it destined for all men to die once and face judgment. So how does God's desire that none should perish be solved? How does God prevent all mankind from perishing? The Resurrection of the Dead.

Were you ever taught that Salvation comes through the Resurrection of the Dead? Was it ever established that our hope for anything in this life, and the Christian faith is, both for the Apostles of Jesus time and everyone since, is the Resurrection of the Dead?

So now you know how God desire that none should perish is solved, how does God's desire that none should not sin be solved? (I am using your own argument against you).

The answer is not through the Resurrection of the Dead, but something we believe and taught is what saved us. Through the death on the cross, Jesus solved the problem of God's desire that none should sin. Through the cross, all mankind is Reconciled to God. God does not count the world's sin against it. While we were enemies, He died for us, and while we were sinners He reconciled all mankind to Himself and sees us now, through His Son.

Romans 5:8-11
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom [while we were still sinners and God's enemies] we have now received reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 5:18-20
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world [not just believers] to himself in Christ, not counting men's [not just believers] sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 4:9-11
This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially [not only] of those who believe. Command and teach these things.


Don't take the slipperly slope and ask the questions, "If all are saved, then why don't we all go out and sin." or "What is the use of Jesus dying on the cross, if all are going to heaven." or any of the number of white rabbit trails people like to go down in order to demonstrate their own understanding. These questions are all answered by Paul, the apostle but also if a person uses common sense and uses different analogies of their own life. We all reap what we sow, and some will rise to aionios zoe, and others aionios kolasis (Eternal Life/Eternal Punishment).

Yes, it breaks His heart when mankind chooses death. No, He doesn't want us to have it. But He isn't the One with the power to choose. We are.

So you are telling everyone, you believe God who is not all powerful. Do you ever remember Jesus's words?

Matthew 19:25-27
When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

 

[StudentoftheWord]

In the psychology of deception, the first step is to cause doubt in what one believes. Any time someone wields this scripture, big red flags go up.

Haha, quoting Scripture red flags go up. You are funny.

 

[ShammahBenJudah]

If you are going to discuss something, can you make sure that what you are stating is in fact a fact.

God desires that none should perish as well, yet every man has perished, there is not one man who has not died (you think two, Enoch and Elijah, did not die; but Scripture tells differently), even Jesus died.

God desires that no man should perish, and yet it destined for all men to die once and face judgment. So how does God's desire that none should perish be solved? How does God prevent all mankind from perishing? The Resurrection of the Dead.

Now you're just playing word games.

This resurrection isn't necessarily unto life, it is the resurrection unto judgement. After it, there is a seond death from which there is no resurrection. The question at this point isn't what God's desire for us is, it is which choice we have made.

Were you ever taught that Salvation comes through the Resurrection of the Dead? Was it ever established that our hope for anything in this life, and the Christian faith is, both for the Apostles of Jesus time and everyone since, is the Resurrection of the Dead?

So now you know how God desire that none should perish is solved, how does God's desire that none should not sin be solved? (I am using your own argument against you).

The answer is not through the Resurrection of the Dead, but something we believe and taught is what saved us. Through the death on the cross, Jesus solved the problem of God's desire that none should sin. Through the cross, all mankind is Reconciled to God. God does not count the world's sin against it. While we were enemies, He died for us, and while we were sinners He reconciled all mankind to Himself and sees us now, through His Son.

Romans 5:8-11
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom [while we were still sinners and God's enemies] we have now received reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 5:18-20
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world [not just believers] to himself in Christ, not counting men's [not just believers] sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 4:9-11
This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially [not only] of those who believe. Command and teach these things.


Don't take the slipperly slope and ask the questions, "If all are saved, then why don't we all go out and sin." or "What is the use of Jesus dying on the cross, if all are going to heaven." or any of the number of white rabbit trails people like to go down in order to demonstrate their own understanding. These questions are all answered by Paul, the apostle but also if a person uses common sense and uses different analogies of their own life. We all reap what we sow, and some will rise to aionios zoe, and others aionios kolasis (Eternal Life/Eternal Punishment).



So you are telling everyone, you believe God who is not all powerful. Do you ever remember Jesus's words?

Matthew 19:25-27
When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Take the full counsel of God into account, please

Yes...Jesus paid for the sins of man on the cross. God sees mankind though the blood of Jesus today. If He didn't the earth probably would've been nuked ages ago. Man's vices and sins will not send him to hell, but his choices will.

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26

The thing you're not addressing about this resurrection thing is that it is the dead spirit of the man that must be resurrected. You're speaking to the flesh and that won't cut it.

We MUST be born again. This is the resurrection of the spirit of man that brings him to life. Once he is born again and spiritually living, he will never die. The resurrection to judgement won't regenerate the spirit of man.

 

[ShammahBenJudah]

Haha, quoting Scripture red flags go up. You are funny.

Yes...accusing people who are seeking the truth from God's Word of "holding to the traditions of men" is first, uncalled for and second, it is manipulative.

Its the same tactic satan used in Genesis three...its the same tactic all liars, cultists and other assorted con men use to create uncertainty in the mind and with it, ply their prey.

I'm not sure what you find humorous about manipulation. I'm not at all amused.

That particular scripture was directed specifically at the oral traditions the Jews have handed down since the days in Egypt. The traditions weren't based on God's Word at all, they were the embellished ways through which they practiced their religion, some based on Egyptian, Babylonian and the religious notions of their neighboring cultures.

I don't believe Mathetes has wandered into an area where there is no scriptural basis...or borrowed ideas from other religions here. Can the accusations, please.

 

[Miykael777]

Good. Then your contention about sick and sadistic should fall by the way side . . . God smote His own son with the wrath that we deserve . . . horrible ugly grotesque . . . destruction . . . PUNISHMENT. And do you think that those who reject Christ will escape this? NOT AT ALL. If the glorification of God's justice, righteousness and holiness of sinner's paying for their sin because they reject the work of the Cross is sadistic to you . . . then Jesus paying the same punishment should be sadistic to you also . . . yet it is not? It is beautiful? INDEED. IT IS GLORY. That is my point. The Cross isn't beautiful simply because He reconciles us to Himself . . . BUT ALSO BECAUSE HIS JUSTICE AND RIGHTEOUSNESS HAVE BEEN VINDICATED. The Cross is indeed beautifully glorious.

Sorry I was at church all day today so I couldnt reply sooner but here goes. We all know that the original old testament sacrifices represented Christ. The lamb without blemish was to pour out its blood and be sacrificed then burned and then eaten. We all know that Jesus is the perfect sinless Lamb of God without blemish and that He pored out His blood and became the ultimate sacrifice, but what about being burned and eaten? Jesus said "I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I if it be already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! Luke 12:49-50." The affliction that Jesus went through was His baptism by fire. Jesus went through the "furnace of affliction." Jesus went through the fire. Jesus also told us that His flesh was the bread of life and that if we eat it we will live. So Jesus completed the sacrifice completely. But my point is that Jesus went through the fire, and everyone else must also; saints in this life and sinners in the next.
You said that God's wrath was poured out on Christ. Well there are many verse in the bible that say we must go through the same things that Jesus went through to be saved. 1. We must take up our cross. 2. We must crucify the flesh 3. We must die daily 4. we must suffer with Christ to also be glorified with Him 5. We must be persecuted 6. We must go through the fire to become pure gold.
If this was the wrath of God that sinners deserve then why do we all have to go through it as saints?
Another thing if eternal hell is the price for sin then why isnt Jesus still burning in hell for our sins?
The wages of sin is death not eternal torment in a fictional pagan hell. Jesus Christ died and rose again to defeat death for every man. Jesus Christ came to destroy the works of the devil. The works of the devil are to kill, steel, destroy. Jesus Christ came bringing life and peace. Jesus Christ came to save that which was lost. God will not allow one member of His creation to be lost eternally stolen by the devil. Jesus Christ has came to give life to all and peace with God to all.
See this is the main problem with eternal hell. Scripture says that your soul is not immortal. All who have died are still dead. No one has gone to heaven or hell yet.
No one will be alive again until Jesus raises them up at His second coming.
Since our souls are mortal then they cannot be tortured for eternity, and what is the point of raising someone from the dead if the lake of fire is annihillation? why raise someone just to judge them then kill them again?
The lake of fire is God's tool to bring even the worst sinner to repentance. Saints will even be used in the lake of fire but we will not be harmed by the lake of fire.
I wrote two article on death the soul and the resurrection on my website.

GodsUnfailingLove777.googlepages.com

 

[Greatcloud]

1 Peter 3:18,19​

Eph. 4 7-9​

These scriptures speak about Christ descending into hell and preaching to the lost and setting them free. He also gave them gifts do you see the compassion of our Father here. he did not leave them in hell to suffer in chains (metaphorical not literal chains). Christ preached to them and gave them gifts to take to heaven with them, as they were saved but naked and without any spiritual gift.​

A hundred years from now universalism may not be seen as a herasy but as a plank of doctrian in many churches. It sure is beautiful though; sin, death, and hell are thrown into the lake of fire and we will all be judged acording to the blood of Jesus, and what we did to fulfill the unfinished work of Christ. The only ones God sent to hell are those before Gods wrath was spent on Christ at the cross.
​

The Power of the Cross to save us all


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[Greatcloud]

1 Peter 3:18,19

Eph. 4 7-9

These scriptures speak about Christ descending into hell and preaching to the lost and setting them free. He also gave them gifts do you see the compassion of our Father here. he did not leave them in hell to suffer in chains (metaphorical not literal chains). Christ preached to them and gave them gifts to take to heaven with them, as they were saved but naked and without any spiritual gift.

A hundred years from now universalism may not be seen as a heresy but as a plank of doctrine in many churches. It sure is beautiful though; sin, death, and hell are thrown into the lake of fire and we will all be judged acording to the blood of Jesus, and what we did to fulfill the unfinished work of Christ. The only ones God sent to hell are those before Gods wrath was spent on Christ at the cross.

In the above scriptures didn't Peter & Paul see clearly the change that came after the cross ? I still believe one needs to do all they can to fulfill the unfinished work of Christ. But I believe that after the cross, hell is for the Devil and his Angels. We will however still be judged so I say yeah lets spread the gospel as much as we can,better is building churches with good pastors.



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