Universalism and 2 thessalonians

[craig_on_fire]

Hey! Not sure if this belongs here! I hope I can get some kind of answer though.

I'm currently researching a lot about Universalism, and I was wondering if there were any universalists who would mind commenting on 2 Thessalonians 1.8-9? I must admit it has me stumped at the moment.
Hope this is ok.
Thanks,
Craig

 

[GreenPartyVoter]

Hey! Not sure if this belongs here! I hope I can get some kind of answer though.

I'm currently researching a lot about Universalism, and I was wondering if there were any universalists who would mind commenting on 2 Thessalonians 1.8-9? I must admit it has me stumped at the moment.
Hope this is ok.
Thanks,
Craig

You are referring to this?

8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power


I feel pain whenever I am separated from God, so I believe in Hell on earth rather than the after life.

As to why do I not take this and other verses about lakes of fire to be what is in store for people after death, I am not a biblical literalist. I can't even begin to imagine a Supreme parent who would set their baby on fire for being naughty. However, since I believe we are created to learn I suspect that reincarnation or a celestial time-out/Purgatory where we experience our sins from the point of view of our victims makes sense.

If you want to know more about universalism here are some links:

Why live a good life if all will be saved?
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/WhyLiveAGoodLife.html

An article with several links to explanations about universalism: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen021.html
(I include this because I had a dream/experience of my own that might hint at universalism)

 

[QuantaCura]

I can't even begin to imagine a Supreme parent who would set their baby on fire for being naughty.

What about a parent that lets their rebellious grown child leave and never come back--all the time beckoning them to come home, but as adults with free will, they choose not to?

 

[GreenPartyVoter]

What about a parent that lets their rebellious grown child leave and never come back--all the time beckoning them to come home, but as adults with free will, they choose not to?

Are you asking me if God would allow that? Sure, it's free will.

Do they get to go to heaven? Yes, in my book. But then I am one of those who believes in restorative universalism, as I mentioned above. (Of course, if the soul really really doesn't want to be in Heaven, maybe God offers some sort of oblivion option. I don't know. But if heaven was anything like the dream I had, I can't see much reason to objecting to being there. )

 

[QuantaCura]

Are you asking me if God would allow that? Sure, it's free will.

Do they get to go to heaven? Yes, in my book. But then I am one of those who believes in restorative universalism, as I mentioned above. (Of course, if the soul really really doesn't want to be in Heaven, maybe God offers some sort of oblivion option. I don't know. But if heaven was anything like the dream I had, I can't see much reason to objecting to being there. )

I'm just saying it's imagineable, that's all--not out of the question

 

[GreenPartyVoter]

Okay. Got it.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Hey! Not sure if this belongs here! I hope I can get some kind of answer though.

I'm currently researching a lot about Universalism, and I was wondering if there were any universalists who would mind commenting on 2 Thessalonians 1.8-9? I must admit it has me stumped at the moment.
Hope this is ok.
Thanks,
Craig

Hi Craig

Charles V is our forum expert on all things Universalism I'm sure he'll be along shortly to answer you.

Stay Tuned
Meow ~ Kat

 

[Multi-Elis]

I am still new to universalism. I thought it would be interesting for me to quote the one who got me to accept universalism. This is part of a testamony of a person who had a near-death experience. While the writer is testifying to what he saw, heard and understood, remember, this is just a point of view on the truth, and one worth considering too.

Who goes to Heaven?

In the end ... believe it or not (sigh of relief), everyone gets to come home! Heaven is a place of ultimate LOVE. When we have learned how to become individuals that base our entire existence and consciousness around manifesting LOVE, we then become capable of entering the domain of the higher Realms of Heaven. If we do not practice Love, we can only go so far and we will be made to incarnate somewhere out there in God's super Universe again and again (unlimited times) until we learn.

What about hell?
​

There is a place called "the Death Shadowed Valley," where some Souls may choose to go to if they feel too afraid, guilty or shameful to approach Heaven or God. This is an in-between place or dimension that separates Souls from this world and the next. ...And as I have discussed before ... being caught in this type of situation is a very difficult process to endure and can cause problems for both the living and the dead. However each of us has the ability to call out to God or to Christ ... and immediately ... we will be taken home to Heaven. Or we (the living) can pray and call out to God to send his Angels to come and take others home. It is important for us to understand that we each send ourselves to the places our Soul believes it most belongs. We do that now here on planet Earth. Those stuck in addiction, lust, bitterness and hate -- these are the ones truly in hell. But the moment we choose Love, we can get ourselves out. God never sends us anywhere we do not wish to stay. We have totally misunderstood the concept of hell on this planet.

What about a place of burning fire?

I do know of a place in the deep regions of the Realm where I saw great caverns of electrical blue fire. However, I understood that this place was for the purpose of Loving purification. God would never send his precious creatures to a place to be burned or harmed. It is completely contrary to our Creator's nature.

I too, have a hard time understanding the different places in the bible where it talks of eternal hell (revelations, thessoloniens, etc) Even worse, I have a hard time because Jesus talks about it: better to cut off part of you than burn in hell forever. The rich man who never showed love to lazarous burning in hell (notice he never asks to go to heaven, he only asks to be slightly releaved of his suffering and that his brothers be warned) the separation of people like sheep and goats-- those who refused to show love to the needy are sent to eternal hell with the angels of satan.

Well, I'm still working at it.

 

[Firebird73]

I am still new to universalism. I thought it would be interesting for me to quote the one who got me to accept universalism. This is part of a testamony of a person who had a near-death experience. While the writer is testifying to what he saw, heard and understood, remember, this is just a point of view on the truth, and one worth considering too.

I have read about Near-death experiences, and its something like 80% of people that have one, have a heavenly experience. Sure, there are hellish one's but from what i have read on this subject, it seems that what we expect to see at death, we shall see.

 

[Multi-Elis]

it seems that what we expect to see at death, we shall see.

There is something to it, except that many see what they didn't expect. Some athiests (Howard Storm for example) expect to go to nothingness, but instead find themselves more aware than ever. In Storm's case he went to hell, a place of lack of love, and got out when he started to annoy the beings there with calling on Jesus, and Jesus came and got him out. Other atheists go to be with God, they know Him there, and aren't atheists when they come back. Some people who aren't really religious or anything meet a man who is shining light, they never give his name. There is one atheist who stayed atheist even though he met God. There are some who turn to Budism. It's really varied. That's what adds to the credibility.

 

[DaveS]

There is one atheist who stayed atheist even though he met God.

How?!

hmm it appears that my view does concur with that of NDE's... I believe that Christians will automatically get admitted a to love Jesus is to love God etc. etc. Others I think will be 'judged' on the amount of good or bad in their lives, if good outways bad then up (assuming that they will want to), if bad outweighs good then ultimately they will feel that they are unworthy and go down. At the end (judgement day) it will be those who never called out to God in hell that will be 'thrown into the lke of fire' and be annhiliated. These I guess would probably be very few, maybe possibly people such as Hitler who will (probably) always consider themselves superior to God like satan.

 

[Mailman Dan]

if good outways bad then up (assuming that they will want to), if bad outweighs good then ultimately they will feel that they are unworthy and go down.

The bible say's there are none good, not even ONE.

Many people do similar things to try to balance good and bad. They may steal from their employer or cheat on their taxes, then give to a charity or spend Thanksgiving helping at a soup kitchen. They think they are balancing the scales: they have done bad, and now they are doing good. However, the Bible reveals that the motive of guilty sinners is one of guilt (see Hebrews 9:14). They are at-tempting to bribe the Judge of the Universe. However, the Judge in this case will not be corrupt-ed. He must punish all sinners. Good works cannot earn mercy; it comes purely by the grace of God. He will dismiss our iniquity only on the grounds of our faith in Jesus.

If you think you are "good enough," I suggest taking the good person test. www.needgod.com

that will be 'thrown into the lke of fire' and be annhiliated

Where did you get that? It doesn't by any means say "annhiliated."

Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night."

Dan~~~>knows we are also not the children of God, like some people assume

 

[Firebird73]

An excellent web-site about near death experiences can be found here:

www.near-death.com

If you scoll down the screen, there is a topic Christians and NDE's which has some interesting stories on it, including Howard Storm and Ian McCormack.

 

[DaveS]

Where did you get that? It doesn't by any means say "annhiliated."

Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night."

Dan~~~>knows we are also not the children of God, like some people assume

Naturally I can't find the particular verse referring to 'death's death and hells destruction'... any help?

Anyway, you will notice that in Rev 20:14 it refers to deth and hell being thrown into the lake of fire, as we already know that death and hell will be destryed, annhiliated then we can assume from there that anything else that enters the lake will also be destroyed. In verse 15 Rev 20 it says that all those not written in the book of life will be thrown into the fire, as we know that death and hell were annhiliated when thrown in we can see from here that those condemned must also be annhiliated.

The bible say's there are none god, not even ONE.

Many people do similar things to try to balance good and bad. They may steal from their employer or cheat on their taxes, then give to a charity or spend Thanksgiving helping at a soup kitchen. They think they are balancing the scales: they have done bad, and now they are doing good. However, the Bible reveals that the motive of guilty sinners is one of guilt (see Hebrews 9:14). They are at-tempting to bribe the Judge of the Universe. However, the Judge in this case will not be corrupt-ed. He must punish all sinners. Good works cannot earn mercy; it comes purely by the grace of God. He will dismiss our iniquity only on the grounds of our faith in Jesus.

Do you think that God can't distinguish from true good and guilt good? Are you trying to say that no one does any good? We are all sinners, but that does not mean that we can do good.

P.S - Isn't good out of guilt a good thing as it shows that we want forgiveness for our sins? Surely the good act will reconcile us to God?


P.P.S - Thanks firebird, I was looking for a good website on that!

 

[PastorJason]

Hey! Not sure if this belongs here! I hope I can get some kind of answer though.

I'm currently researching a lot about Universalism, and I was wondering if there were any universalists who would mind commenting on 2 Thessalonians 1.8-9? I must admit it has me stumped at the moment.
Hope this is ok.
Thanks,
Craig

Craig,

I'm sure you came questioning with the best of intentions. That being said, you've come to us with a fairly obvious prooftext and then asked us to reflect on it. I offer another option to those who have posted thus far, and have barely touched the 2 Thessalonians text (in my opinion, of course, and no offense to any previous posters - we all get sidetracked).

We need more context! When I checked the text you indicated, immediately I was struck by two things: it begins in the middle of a sentence, and ends with a comma. That raises the "something stinks" flag when I study scriptural reference supplied by other people.

So I expanded my reading, and think, at the minimum, that verses 1-12 should be looked at in reference to those two verses, and at best, the whole of the letter.

Here it is, 2 Thessalonians 1:1-12 (NRSV):
[BIBLE]1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 We must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of everyone of you for one another is increasing. 4 Therefore we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith during all your persecutions and the afflictions that you are enduring.

5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, and is intended to make you worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering. 6 For it is indeed just of God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to the afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes to be glorified by his saints and to be marveled at on that day among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. 11 To this end we always pray for you, asking that our God will make you worthy of his call and will fulfill by his power every good resolve and work of faith, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.[/BIBLE]

When you pull the study microscope back to this range, possible meanings of the text come a bit more easily. In this context, at the opening of the letter, Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy greet the church in Thessaly and commend them for remaining strong in the face of persecution - which was not an unlikely event, given the time at which this letter was written. I doubt very seriously that Paul had anything to say here about universal vs. individual salvation. It sounds to me like a pastor telling his flock that the wolves that persecute them will be punished by God. To widen that circle of punishment to anyone else is putting words into Paul's mouth. To say that given what Paul says in this passage may lead us to believe that those who persecute us will be punished, especially those persecuters who do not know God or the gospel of Jesus Christ.

So, to answer your question, I don't think this passage has anything at all to say about universalism, nor about the status of those who live outside of knowing the gospel of Jesus Christ. I think it pertains solely to those people (whoever they were) that persecuted the church in Thessaly in the first half-century (possibly even a shorter amount of time) after the resurrection.

Prooftexting is dangerous, and leads to the kinds of conflict we see on this board every day. In all cases of scriptural reference, take it in the context in which it was written. Otherwise, you can squeeze scripture into whatever shape you want it, and to back any side you choose. All of it is irresponsible Bible scholarship. Also just my opinion.

Also, the passages from Revelations pointed to so far in this thread - when it's a single or a double, it's likely to be a prooftext. I'll leave that to you to figure out, but at the very least take in the whole chapter, at the most, take the whole book. And when it comes to Revelations ... tread lightly. To prooftext from a book of metaphor, allegory and imagery is like trimming the fuse on a stick of dynamite to a quarter-inch, lighting it, and using it as a candle. Just not a good idea.

Hope this helps.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Prooftexting is dangerous, and leads to the kinds of conflict we see on this board every day. In all cases of scriptural reference, take it in the context in which it was written. Otherwise, you can squeeze scripture into whatever shape you want it, and to back any side you choose. All of it is irresponsible Bible scholarship. Also just my opinion.

Proof text is fine but context will get you everytime.
​

I nominate this for forum motto.[font=&quot]=^..^= [/font]

 

[Charlie V]

Proof text is fine but context will get you everytime.

Unfortunately, many people (notably some right-wingers I've conversed with) badly misuse and misunderstand the word "context."

They also aren't very receptive to having the word "context" explained to them.

In example, the following ridiculous statement is often made:

"Of course there's a hell. You have to take that passage in the context of the entire Bible."

The word "context," of course, refers to the immediately surrounding words and sentences which give a particular word or sentence its meaning.

What they are presenting that they are calling "the context of the entire Bible" are apparent contradictions taken out of context in different books of the Bible.


Charlie

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Unfortunately, many people (notably some right-wingers I've conversed with) badly misuse and misunderstand the word "context."

They also aren't very receptive to having the word "context" explained to them.

In example, the following ridiculous statement is often made:

"Of course there's a hell. You have to take that passage in the context of the entire Bible."

The word "context," of course, refers to the immediately surrounding words and sentences which give a particular word or sentence its meaning.

What they are presenting that they are calling "the context of the entire Bible" are apparent contradictions taken out of context in different books of the Bible.



Charlie

OK. We'll have a motto with a disclaimer that it doesn't work on those committed to irrationality.

 

[PastorJason]

Unfortunately, many people (notably some right-wingers I've conversed with) badly misuse and misunderstand the word "context."

They also aren't very receptive to having the word "context" explained to them.

In example, the following ridiculous statement is often made:

"Of course there's a hell. You have to take that passage in the context of the entire Bible."

The word "context," of course, refers to the immediately surrounding words and sentences which give a particular word or sentence its meaning.

What they are presenting that they are calling "the context of the entire Bible" are apparent contradictions taken out of context in different books of the Bible.


Charlie

It's the joy of misunderstanding for sure, but my favorite is "take it in the context of the whole Bible." In my hermeneutics class, it was called canonical criticism. I did some checking, some reading, some sweating. Wow. Canonical critics have a hard time coming up with much from scripture, because of all the voices represented between the covers. I wouldn't want to be a canonical critic. Whew. I'll stick with context. My definition, of course.

 

[Mailman Dan]

Naturally I can't find the particular verse referring to 'death's death and hells destruction'... any help?

Rev 14:10-11
.. he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

The Bible also refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following:

• "Shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2)
• "Everlasting punishment" (Mathew 25:46)
• "Weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 24:51)
• "Fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17)
• "Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish" (Romans 2:8,9)
• "Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
• "Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 7,13)

I strongly suggest reading the parables of Jesus, if you believe HIM. Notice how they all end in warnings...

The rich man who found himself in hell (Luke 16:19–31) was conscious. He was able to feel pain, to thirst, and to experience remorse. He wasn’t asleep in the grave; he was in a place of "torment." If hell is a place of knowing nothing or a reference to the grave into which we go at death, Jesus' statements about hell make no sense. He said that if your hand, foot, or eye causes you to sin, it would be better to remove it than to "go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:43–48).



Dan~~~>knows many will ignore scripture to build their own views (it's called idolatry..and very common)