Universalism and 2 thessalonians

Rev. Smith said:

... you always seek the essance rather than the form of truth..

and that's a good thing.

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Dude, u r the badger. I'm v impressed w/u!!!

It's interesting that none of you have examined the "thief crucified with Jesus" story--the thief didn't have any life left in which to do good works. He didn't believe Jesus died for HIS sins as far as we know. He had made fun of Jesus. Yet a missgiving in him made him ask Yeshua: "remember me when you come into your kingdom." It was just a little prayer of a cry for help. And Yeshua answers: "To day you will meet me in Paradise."

So salvation--that is such a complicated issue.

Multi-Elis said:

It's interesting that none of you have examined the "thief crucified with Jesus" story--the thief didn't have any life left in which to do good works. He didn't believe Jesus died for HIS sins as far as we know. He had made fun of Jesus. Yet a missgiving in him made him ask Yeshua: "remember me when you come into your kingdom." It was just a little prayer of a cry for help. And Yeshua answers: "To day you will meet me in Paradise."

So salvation--that is such a complicated issue.

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Of course it is complex, but I think that the conservative theologin is less likely to acknowledge that than the liberal one .

The theif was surely forgiven, and attained grace from his prayer for help. But even here can we judge him? He was a theif, others are adulters or cruel to their parents, or lustful, or full of pride (that would be me). But do we know that he was not a sheep? Could he have used a portion of what he stole to feed the hungry in his village?

But lets assume that he was an utter reprobate, that the one instance of Love for God, his neighbor or the commandments in his entire life was at that moment on the cross. Does this "prove" salvation by faith alone? why do we think that we get to put God in a box - that he must pick one means, and one means alone to grant us life? What is wrong with God prescribing a life of active love for us, and then show mercy to one who did not do that, but came to him in love and humility and asked for mercy?

Do we rebel at the unfairness? Does part of us say, "Hey I was good all my life and tried to live as a Christian - I repented my sins, loved God and took care of the poor - how come he gets to go to heaven even though he was bad?" - Perhaps there is a hint in the prodigal son, that God wills that all men be saved, that even in extremis turning to God is enough.

The life of sin isn't a happy one. I work with some druggies, hookers and assorted street people. None of them are very happy. I am underpaid, the very poster boy for failure in the 21st century USA (here we keep score by your financial worth and my net worth wouldn't cover the cost of the napkins for a fancy party) -and you know what? I'm happy, I love the life the Lord has called me to, prayer fulfills me, I take great joy and love from my congregation and the work I do. The life of sin rarely makes people happy. Look at all the ricf celbreties, serial divorce, drug busts and fist fights with papparazzi - I'll bet I'm happier than many of those folks - even though they have so much more of the "good life".

If we DO the work of Christ we lead happy lives right up to the moment of our salvation, and so still have a fuller measure of the gifts of God than the theif with his death hour repentance. I'll be happy to share heaven with him, if he is good enough for God, he's certainly good enough for me.

So why do I care about the "faith alone" crowd? Because I fear that some people who lived as goats will not know to repent as the end comes, because they will be convinced that calling out the name of Jesus every Suinday was enough, and will go to sheol confident that they were the "elect" and needed do, nor pray ,anything more. And that would be sad. To have faith and hope, but no charity is an utter waste - so close and yet so far.

Just out of interest, did the thief meet Jesus in paradise that day, since Jesus 'went to preach to the spirits in prison' (1 Peter 3:19) and didn't enter paradise until His ascension (cf. Luke 24:51), many days afterwards?

Rev. Smith said:

You do know that this was not a teaching of Jesus, but rather a teaching of John about Jesus? Look at the part I italiced, do you propose that John was negating all else that Jesus taught, that instead salvation is based on "magic words", that all we have to do is believe in the name? Do you realise that this means that we are all damned, since his name wasn't Jesus - it was Yeshua? Since I pray to Jesus, think of Him as Jesus and know him in my heart as Jesus, I am damned because I hath not believed in the name . How much of the "name" to I have to believe? Can I think of him as Yeshua, or do I have to say the whole name, Yeshua bar Joseph?
Can you not see that to believe in Jesus, by whatever name you care to call him, is to believe in his teaching, to live the life he prescribed. To have faith that he was the son of God, and do as he would have us do. Be as he would have us be.

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It is not a teaching of John about Jesus. It is a dissertation of Jesus. Your comment about "magic words" is undoubtedly spoken in ignorance. It is not a word that saves. It is a belief in the one who has that name. It is obvious throughout the scriptures that when it speaks of the "name of Jesus," it is to believe in His person, who He is. It is not believing only in his teaching. It is believing in Him, who He is. Part of his teaching is that we are saved by believing in Him. Part of His teaching is that no one can come to the Father except through him.

And it is, of course essential that we have faith. It is the first of the three pillars he taught for those who would have life. The second, that we love our neighbor as ourselves and the third that we keep the commandments. He further taught that he will be the judge of all mankind (and thus no man will come to the Father, save through him) {this gets very metaphysical when we view it through a trinitarian lense - no one comes to God save through God}.

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This is a misunderstanding of the Trinity. The Father is God and the Son is God. There is only one God. However, the Son is not the Father. We must come to the Father through the Son. The point is that Jesus is the only way humanity can have relationship with God, as Peter said in the Book of Acts: "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Act 4:12)

And how did he say he would judge? In the sheep and the goats he tells us exactly how he will judge. He told us that the ones he will welcome into paradise are those who fed, refreshed, clothed and comforted him, by doing those things for others. He teaches this over an over and over, that those who please God do so by what they do for others.

It comes down to this: Some people think that when he taught that he is the way, the truth and the life it means that all you have to do is believe. St. Paul certainly seemed to think so. Others think that he is the way, as in a path to follow - that he is the truth, as in he has taught us rightly what we must do, and the life, as in the way life is supposed to be.

There is no religious or faith test listed in the sheep and the goats. Think this is an oversight on Jesus' part?

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I find it difficult to understand why you have an aversion to the concept of salvation through faith. I do not understand why you seem compelled to take a parable, which is by nature an allegory, and make a doctrine of salvation based on it, while ignoring the vast number of scriptural referances that state that salvation is by grace through faith. That it is through the blood of Jesus that we are forgiven of our sins and are brought "nigh" to God. The Bible is clear that man is incapable of saving himself. It clearly states in both the Old and New Testament that we are all sinners. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

To quote a favorite hymn of mine, "I need no other argument. I need no other plea. It is enough that Jesus died, and that He died for me."

mortsmune said:

I find it difficult to understand why you have an aversion to the concept of salvation through faith. I do not understand why you seem compelled to take a parable, which is by nature an allegory, and make a doctrine of salvation based on it, while ignoring the vast number of scriptural referances that state that salvation is by grace through faith. That it is through the blood of Jesus that we are forgiven of our sins and are brought "nigh" to God. The Bible is clear that man is incapable of saving himself. It clearly states in both the Old and New Testament that we are all sinners. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

To quote a favorite hymn of mine, "I need no other argument. I need no other plea. It is enough that Jesus died, and that He died for me."

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The folks looking to "prove" their favorite dogma simply dismiss as allegory or whimsy any scripture that goes the other way. The sheep and goats is one of the clearest teachings in all scripture; break it down:

Jesus: I'm going to be the judge of all mankind.
Jesus: Here is how I will judge: The people who feed my sheep get in, the people who don't won't.

I find it difficult to understand why you have aversion to salvation through living the life The Christ ordained for us, faith, hope and charity.

All of the teachings of the Bible add up to this; we must have Faith in God, father son and spirit.

We must have hope in the glory to come.

We must live in love and charity to our fellow man. The Bible is far from clear thatman is incapable of saving himself, and rather demands it. God calls, we answer. Through grace our sins are relieved and we are set in His ways.

My favorite hymm is Ave Maria.

Rev. Smith said:

The folks looking to "prove" their favorite dogma simply dismiss as allegory or whimsy any scripture that goes the other way. The sheep and goats is one of the clearest teachings in all scripture; break it down:

Jesus: I'm going to be the judge of all mankind.
Jesus: Here is how I will judge: The people who feed my sheep get in, the people who don't won't.

I find it difficult to understand why you have aversion to salvation through living the life The Christ ordained for us, faith, hope and charity.

All of the teachings of the Bible add up to this; we must have Faith in God, father son and spirit.

We must have hope in the glory to come.

We must live in love and charity to our fellow man. The Bible is far from clear thatman is incapable of saving himself, and rather demands it. God calls, we answer. Through grace our sins are relieved and we are set in His ways.

My favorite hymm is Ave Maria.

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I love the sheep and the goats. Another of my favorites is the parable of the workers in the vineyard. You just can't justify fairness in that one. Only God knows completely the mind of God. And as far as I remember from the workers in the vineyard, the workers showed up and got paid to do the work needed in the vineyard. I'd say there's lot of work needed in our vineyard.

Well stated, as always, Rev. Smith. We may not have matching theologies, but we end up in many, if not most, of the same places.

I have lots of favorite hymns, but I especially like "Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee." It's a Beethoven thing.

PastorJason said:

II have lots of favorite hymns, but I especially like "Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee." It's a Beethoven thing.

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Oh favorite hymns thread time!

Mine is . . "They will know we are Christians by our Love".

I still get goose bumps when I hear Day by Day from Godspell too.

Rev. Smith said:

The folks looking to "prove" their favorite dogma simply dismiss as allegory or whimsy any scripture that goes the other way. The sheep and goats is one of the clearest teachings in all scripture; break it down:
Jesus: I'm going to be the judge of all mankind.
Jesus: Here is how I will judge: The people who feed my sheep get in, the people who don't won't.

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First of all, I would hardly call the doctrine of redemption through the Blood of Jesus Christ and the salvation by grace a "favorite dogma." It is the cornerstone of the Christian faith.

If you take the sheep and goats parable out of the context of the rest of scriptures it may be simple, but not if you take it in context with the rest of scripture.

I find it difficult to understand why you have aversion to salvation through living the life The Christ ordained for us, faith, hope and charity.

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I find it difficult to understand why you find it difficult to understand. I have no problem with the idea of living the life Christ ordained for us. What I have a problem with is the fact that you cannot obtain salvation that way. It completely ignores the issue of sin. It ignores and demeans the sacrifice of Christ. It ignores the fact of man's basic unrighteousness and inability to do good. Jesus also taught that no one is good but God.

All of the teachings of the Bible add up to this; we must have Faith in God, father son and spirit.

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What does that mean if you leave out the Cross and the issue of sin and repentance and grace?

We must have hope in the glory to come.

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Salvation must come before hope.

We must live in love and charity to our fellow man.

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This is the result of salvation not the means.

The Bible is far from clear thatman is incapable of saving himself, and rather demands it. God calls, we answer.

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This is untrue. If man could save himself, Jesus would not have had to die. That is why He came.

Through grace our sins are relieved and we are set in His ways.

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You need to explain this because it sounds like you are contradicting yourself.

My favorite hymm is Ave Maria.

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I don't know what to say to that.

mortsmune said:

First of all, I would hardly call the doctrine of redemption through the Blood of Jesus Christ and the salvation by grace a "favorite dogma." It is the cornerstone of the Christian faith.

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Er... 1 billion Catholics, 8-900 million Orthodox and many millions of Anglicans would all disagree with you. The Cornerstone of the Christian faith is the teachings and divinity of Jesus of Nazareth, salvation by grace is merely the cornerstone of the Calvinist/Evangelical wings of the Protestant movement.

mortsmune said:

If you take the sheep and goats parable out of the context of the rest of scriptures it may be simple, but not if you take it in context with the rest of scripture.

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It is compleatly in context with all that Jesus taught. Whenever asked by anyone what they must do to be saved his answer was always the same - Love God, Love your neighbor AND keep the commandments. Your wing of Christianity seems to stop with item one.

mortsmune said:

I find it difficult to understand why you find it difficult to understand. I have no problem with the idea of living the life Christ ordained for us. What I have a problem with is the fact that you cannot obtain salvation that way. It completely ignores the issue of sin. It ignores and demeans the sacrifice of Christ. It ignores the fact of man's basic unrighteousness and inability to do good. Jesus also taught that no one is good but God.

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Calvin, Augestine and Barth all said that, so your in good company - But Jesus, says otherwise : so musch of his teaching, the sheep and goats, ten lepers, faithful servent and even the profigal son all point to this, Love God, love your neighbor and keep the commandments points to this.

mortsmune said:

What does that mean if you leave out the Cross and the issue of sin and repentance and grace?
Salvation must come before hope.
This is the result of salvation not the means.
This is untrue. If man could save himself, Jesus would not have had to die. That is why He came.

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If sola filde was such an obvious doctrine, why did it take John Calvin to think it up? Like sola scripture it is a modern Protestant inovation.

How does faith hope and charity impact the Passion at all? We do not leave out the passion, or sin or redemption. Through Grace our sins are forgiven, through living the life Jesus taught we are leasing to God, the sheep he taught us he wants to be - and the basis on which he taught us he will judge. I see this argument thrown out from sola filde proponents all the time, as if it had meaning. That God desires us to live as he has taught us does no violence to the splender of the ressurection, a miracle of proof of the transcendent glory of God that rivals all the other works he ever did before. Rather I see it as the ultimate invitation to the covenant, there cvan be no doubt as to His divinity, at once man and God, and thus we are exhorted to do as he taught.

If man could save himself Jesus would not have to die? What do you think the point of his becoming human was? By dieing at the hands of Rome he was utterly defeated by them, all his teaching rendered moot - for three days, and then all the teaching of every pagan cult was laid bare before His divinity.

Grace.

Rev smith, thanks for adressing the thief on the cross. To me the theif on the cross is just a proof that you can't put God in a box--either way. If you believe, as the theif did, your spirit awakens to Life. If you are an athiest with a philosophy of life that leads you to be searching to be more christ-like, with out even knowing it, perhaps there too your spirit awakens to Life. Because he participates as a partner with God in Life bringing acts.

I have a question: What is the difference between justification and salvation?

Here is another verse I find interesting on the subject:

James 2:21-26
Abraham our father, wasn't he justified by works when he offered his son on an alter? 22 You see that faith helped his deeds, and it is in his deeds that his faith was fullfilled. 23 and thus what was written was fullfilled "and Abraham believed in God and he considered it to him to rightiousness" and also he was called "lover of God" 24 You see that it is in deeds that a person is justified and not by believing/faith alone. 25 and so rahav the prosititute, wasn't she justified by her deeds when she gathered the spies of Jeashua to her house and sent them away in a different way? 26 As the body without spirit is dead so faith without works is dead.

I see why luther wanted to take this book out. I don't blame him

Multi-Elis said:

I see why luther wanted to take this book out. I don't blame him

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But that would have been a huge mistake.

Multi-Elis said:

Abraham our father, wasn't he justified by works when he offered his son on an alter?

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erm, all the religions of the time sacrificed first born kids quite a lot... this was nothing new. It was the fact that he stopped that was "stand out" and that God should be so loving as to request animal rather than human sacrifices.

Multi-Elis said:

I have a question: What is the difference between justification and salvation?

Here is another verse I find interesting on the subject:

James 2:21-26
Abraham our father, wasn't he justified by works when he offered his son on an alter? 22 You see that faith helped his deeds, and it is in his deeds that his faith was fullfilled. 23 and thus what was written was fullfilled "and Abraham believed in God and he considered it to him to rightiousness" and also he was called "lover of God" 24 You see that it is in deeds that a person is justified and not by believing/faith alone. 25 and so rahav the prosititute, wasn't she justified by her deeds when she gathered the spies of Jeashua to her house and sent them away in a different way? 26 As the body without spirit is dead so faith without works is dead.

I see why luther wanted to take this book out. I don't blame him

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My church (and we received this from the Romans, so I think they believe thusly also) believes that a man or woman is justified before God when their sins are forgiven and they come into the Body. They are, as Father Abraham was deemed rightious. If they were to die at that very moment, justification and salvation would be the same thing. What we know from scripture is that neiter repentance or baptism, which justify, mean that a person shall be evermore free from sin. Thus we may be justified, having all of our prior offenses washed away by the propitiation of Christ, and still be in peril. We are saved by living the life life Jesus taught us, love God, love our fellow man and keep the commandments. That the justified might need salvation is clear in the end of John (as well as the pasage above). When Jesus spoke for the last time to the 11 he commanded them : Whose sins you forgive are forgivesn, whose sins you retain are retained.

As a servent of the inheritors of the Apostles, this is my most dreadful responsibility - for when I meet with someone troubled or burdened it is not just their happiness or well being that is at stake, but their salvation. Somtimes it weighs alot.

I know that many Protestant sects hold that justification and salvation are one in the same. This may be true by the light of their truncated Bible. Human nature, scripture and tradition teach us that many people come to the Lord, their hearts full of love and joy. Without Grace many of those will fall away and salvation elude them. This is why The Christ ordained the CHurch and the sacraments, that renewing Grace may be available to sustain, and save, us all.

I'd like to put it in my words to make sure I understand:
Justification is when you ask forgiveness for sins and forgive sins, and believe,
while salvation is a daily worked out thing, where if you are following Christ, you are saved, if you aren't you are going away from salvation.
(I get the impression the James' passage is the other way around)

If this is true, Universalism implies that one day all people will learn to follow Christ.

I'm glad you pointed out that salvation and Justification are not necessarily the same. (I come from a background that doesn't make much distinction between the two.)

Just thinking about the very words here...

If I'm JUSTIFIED to do something, I am RIGHT.
If I'm SAVED, I may be right or wrong, but was in DANGER.

FLANDIDLYANDERS said:

Just thinking about the very words here...

If I'm JUSTIFIED to do something, I am RIGHT.
If I'm SAVED, I may be right or wrong, but was in DANGER.

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...and as anuone who knows me would tell you, never with so few words!

mortsmune said:

Are you saying that the Catholics and Orthodox and Anglicans do not believe in redemption and that Jesus died for our sins? That is not what I have heard. If that is true, then their faith is not based on the scriptures. Scriptures are very clear about this.

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or absoluteist, and I'm not sure which is worse. To disagree with Protestants is not to be atheists. Of course we believe that Jesus is and was the propitiaon of our sins. What we are saying is that through the Grace of Christ our sins are washed away, we are forgiven. But to be saved you must live as Christ commanded; be the sheep - or the good samaratin, or the faithful steward (or whichever one of Jesus MANY commands that to follow him is to serve his people that you like best).

When the men brought the woman who was caught in adultory out to be stoned, and he stopped them he turned to her and said, "Go and sin no more", not "Go and believe in God".

When the woman with the alabaster jar washed his feet with ointment and her tears, he told her that her faith had saved her, "GO AND SIN NO MORE"

When the young man asked "What must I do to have life", he answered "Love God, Love tyour neighbor, keep the commandments"

Never once did he teach that all a man had to do to be have life, and to be his disciple was easy believeism. Always he taught the same : faith, hope and charity.