Most of them don't reject the Cross and the resurrection of Jesus Christ.GreenPartyVoter said:
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Most of them don't reject the Cross and the resurrection of Jesus Christ.GreenPartyVoter said:All Christians pick and choose. It is a question of the degree to which they do this. Some churches hold to Levitical law down the line, others serve pork and lobster at their Sunday School picnics.
It's not dramatic. It's succinct. Christians who believe Christ is the only way to heaven see two choices: confess His name and go to Heaven, or not. (regardless of the quality of life one has led.)
I am saying that you can come to grips with sin and guilt and experience the grace of God through other religions. In no way does that spit upon Christianity.
"For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes on Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
If you are going to give credence to Bible at all as having authority, then interpret it honestly and take things in context. Otherwise, just make up whatever beliefs you want and believe them simply because that is what you want to believe and forget about the Bible altogether. Don't pick your belief and then try to justify it by taking scriptures out of context and misinterpreting them.
Of course it is dramatic. Quality of life lived is the problem with all humanity. None is righteous, no, not one. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
mortsmune said:Most of them don't reject the Cross and the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Most of them don't reject the Cross and the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
mortsmune said:Upon what authority do you state that the hell of the Bible is not literally what is says? By what authority do you know that Christ is not the only way to salvation?
I would not deny the scriptures say that. I would also not say that people who do not know about Jesus may not be saved. However, many people purposely want to not believe in Jesus and still think that they can find God and salvation. To consciously reject Jesus is a whole other thing.DaveS said:As you can see, love is fulfilement of the law, the law is witness of belief. Therefore, if you love, you believe whether you know it or not.
You say "of course" as if this should be self-evident fact. It is part of the faith in Christ and obedience to Him.Now onto the baptism bit which is, of course, symbolic.
My point was that if someone is going to deny the most basic beliefs of Christianity, i.e., the Cross and resurrection of Jesus, and the salvation through His name, what is Christian about that person's belief? Why even claim the name? It defies logic.Ahh.. now we've got to the bit where it is suggested that someobe is not a proper Christian.. who are we to judge?
Yes, anyone can become a Christian, and everyone is potentially saved. Between potentiality and actuality, there is great big IF. Potential does not mean factual. Potential is only a possibility.Everyone is potentially saved. Why would Christ go around going.. right I'll pick you... and you.. Besides, Christianity started when Christ died and rose again, free will dictates and Christianity dictates that anyone can become Christian, therefore, everyone had to be saved.
I would not deny the scriptures say that. I would also not say that people who do not know about Jesus may not be saved. However, many people purposely want to not believe in Jesus and still think that they can find God and salvation. To consciously reject Jesus is a whole other thing.
Without an absolute standard to define it, who is to say what love is. The Bible reveals to us God's opinion of what love is.
When all is said and done, it is a historical fact that Jesus of Nazareth died and rose from the dead. That carries a great deal of authority to my thinking.
My point was that if someone is going to deny the most basic beliefs of Christianity, i.e., the Cross and resurrection of Jesus, and the salvation through His name, what is Christian about that person's belief? Why even claim the name? It defies logic.
Yes, anyone can become a Christian, and everyone is potentially saved. Between potentiality and actuality, there is great big IF. Potential does not mean factual. Potential is only a possibility.
This was said in reference to hell. But I don't think that references to hell made Jesus' teaching less acceptable. Rather this (written iat little later):To change the message to attract more people is a gross error. Jesus never tailored His teaching to make it more acceptable.
That was what was difficult to accept. That is what makes the gate and the path narrow. That is the cup Jesus talked about, that we will all probably have to drink in order to get to the higher relms of heaven, in order to shine God's bright pure light. What makes it easier to drink, is that Jesus has already done the worst of it, and has the power to help us.Love entails self-sacrifice, giving while expecting nothing in return. It is always willing to forgive and never reacting from self-centered concerns, never being angry over any personal hurt. It means absolute selfless giving.
Good things cannot undo or outweigh our breaking of God's commandments. One white lie will destroy any hope of "being good enough" to go to heaven.
The problem is that we are on different wave-lengths. In my oppinion, believing in God for fear of Hell is bad religion. So is trying to work your way with goodness. But we aren't trying to be good in order to atone for a bad. We are hoping to be changed into truely loving people. This is our destiny, this is our future that God has called us to, this is the reason we were born.It is not intolerant to tell others they will go to hell if they don't believe if that is the truth. If it is the truth, then telling people that is compassionate; not telling them is evil.
I already gave the authority on which I state that the hell of the Bible is not literally what is says -- People who rose from the dead agree with "gnashing of teeth" "torment" describtions of Hell, but not the eternal part. I don't know if you read my quote near the beginning of the thread, but I was quoting one of the many people who rose from the dead.Upon what authority do you state that the hell of the Bible is not literally what is says? By what authority do you know that Christ is not the only way to salvation? He rose from the dead. Did you?
and a little later:Why would you recommend that someone get to know Christ?For many years, I had no clue who this man Jesus Christ was. Oh, I was raised up to be a Christian alright ... but I never really understood who Christ really was until after my experience. I found too many in Christianity come off as haughty and oppressive ... and because of this ... I wanted to distance myself as far away from the faith as I could! But in the process, I also distanced my self from Jesus, The teacher of Love and that was unfortunate! It was not Jesus' fault that so many who 'said' they subscribed to the Lord of Love's ways ... came off acting like they had a board up their backside! Perhaps if I had had better examples of Christ-Love as a child, I would have understood the Lord when I was first taught to believe in him, but that was not in the cards for me.
So now, I never EVER judge anyone if they are unsure about what they feel when it comes to God, Christ or the Bible. I have found ... you cannot rely on humankind or a single book to reveal God to you ... you have to seek these things out with all your whole heart and let the Holy Spirit be your guide. In time because of suffering ... I wanted to see the truth ... and the Holy Spirit showed me: Christ is the light of God that we each hold within us and will awaken to when we choose to embody a Loving lifestyle. The more we do such a thing (and put faith based Love into practice) ... the better our lives will become and the more we reveal this inner Light to ourselves and others.
I am talking about a person who in their heart has a sense of urgency to want to Love on and Joyously Serve others, and not just the ones who look or behave attractively ... but all people. A person filled with the Christ Light will always see that every Soul on this planet is a precious child of our Creator and will always do hers or his best to Love on them with all their might! YOU WILL ALWAYS HEAR ME SAY THIS OVER AND OVER ... LOVE IS THE ONLY WAY TO GO! I cannot say it enough, because this is the path to understanding God and Christ in Heaven. The more you use it and put it into practice ... the more you will evoke the Spirit of the living God in you and see this for yourself
This is what you base your doctrine on? This is at best flimsy ground for a doctrine.I already gave the authority on which I state that the hell of the Bible is not literally what is says -- People who rose from the dead agree with "gnashing of teeth" "torment" describtions of Hell, but not the eternal part. I don't know if you read my quote near the beginning of the thread, but I was quoting one of the many people who rose from the dead.
I think it is time for another quote from him:
This is very true.That was what was difficult to accept. That is what makes the gate and the path narrow. That is the cup Jesus talked about, that we will all probably have to drink in order to get to the higher relms of heaven, in order to shine God's bright pure light. What makes it easier to drink, is that Jesus has already done the worst of it, and has the power to help us.
The sheep and the goats is the judgment of Christ, it is final judgment, and by this we know how Christ is going to judge the world. Under this judgment, "he who loves his fellow man has fulfilled the law", and "love is the fulfillment of the law". It quite simply is the judgment of Christ under the law of Christ. If we understand this we also can clearly understand how nothing has been taken out of context.mortsmune said:The sheep and goats is not the only passage in the Bible on salvation. The ones I quoted before indicate believing in Jesus as the prerequisite for salvation. Take the sheep and goats story in context with the rest of scriptures. Otherwise, only those who visit prisoners, feed the hungry and clothe the naked will be saved. That would exclude most people. The Bible clearly indicates that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Even Jesus Himself said that we must believe on him. He said: "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes on Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
If you are going to give credence to Bible at all as having authority, then interpret it honestly and take things in context. Otherwise, just make up whatever beliefs you want and believe them simply because that is what you want to believe and forget about the Bible altogether. Don't pick your belief and then try to justify it by taking scriptures out of context and misinterpreting them.
If this is the case, then what do you do with all the verses throughout the NT telling us that we are saved by faith and grace? Do those mean nothing? Why do you specifically need a "description of judgment" that says we are saved by what we believe when other verses are so clear about it? This is what I mean by context. What do you do with verses like this?Furthermore, as I have said in other threads in this forum, there is no description of judgment in all of scripture in which people are judged according to what they believed, instead they are judged according to what they did.
flautist said:However, it's not only Christians who know love. My fiance is an atheist, and he has more love for mankind than I have seen most Christians have. He is one of the most compassionate individuals I have ever met. And it's not just talk. He lives it. When asked his life goals, he always simply says, "To make a positive difference in people's lives." And he lives it, every day. That, my friends, is love.
mortsmune said:If this is the case, then what do you do with all the verses throughout the NT telling us that we are saved by faith and grace? Do those mean nothing? Why do you specifically need a "description of judgment" that says we are saved by what we believe when other verses are so clear about it? This is what I mean by context. What do you do with verses like this?
That was what was difficult to accept. That is what makes the gate and the path narrow. That is the cup Jesus talked about, that we will all probably have to drink in order to get to the higher relms of heaven, in order to shine God's bright pure light. What makes it easier to drink, is that Jesus has already done the worst of it, and has the power to help us.
The problem is that we are on different wave-lengths. In my oppinion, believing in God for fear of Hell is bad religion. So is trying to work your way with goodness. But we aren't trying to be good in order to atone for a bad. We are hoping to be changed into truely loving people. This is our destiny, this is our future that God has called us to, this is the reason we were born.
I already gave the authority on which I state that the hell of the Bible is not literally what is says -- People who rose from the dead agree with "gnashing of teeth" "torment" describtions of Hell, but not the eternal part. I don't know if you read my quote near the beginning of the thread, but I was quoting one of the many people who rose from the dead.
This is what you base your doctrine on? This is at best flimsy ground for a doctrine.
Regarding the eternity of hell, if it is not eternal, and people there are there temporarily, how is the decision made to decide how long they will be there?
If no one is lost eternally, why did Jesus die? Did He die for the fun of it? Did God make a tragic mistake by allowing His only begotten Son to suffer such a death?
If hell is not forever, without believing in Jesus, how are the sins of those in hell to be forgiven? How can one be purified of sin without the blood of Jesus?
I think Hell could be eternal, ultimately it is how bad someone has been. If they have done minor bad then they will call out to Christ and be saved earlier, if worse, they will be saved later as ultimately it is the person who decides not God. You could describe hell as being 'redemptive' then.
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