Universal Salvation in Orthodoxy?

[Teke]

Tube Socks Dude - In case you haven't noticed, this isn't a Protestant forum. You're welcome to believe what you like, but claiming that "Jesus and the prophets never said it," doesn't have much truck here.

I think one problem when speaking to our Protestant brothers on the Scriptures is that they really are wondering about what we really do believe about the Scriptures, their place in our lives etc.

It is often the case that we can get further ahead with Protestants by demonstrating how highly we do hold the cult of Scripture in our lives and in the life of our Church - this is something that is often, on the face of it, not self-evident to Protestants and even others.

It was Saint Dominic, I believe, whose tradition taught that the study of Scripture, in and of itself, is a type of worship and prayer.

St Parthenius of the Kyiv Caves Lavra referred to the meditation on Scripture as the "highest prayer."

And it is the best established monastic tradition of the Desert to even memorized the Gospels and the Psalms etc.

In my experience, I've found that once Protestants see that we are conversant with Scripture, that its living streams pulsate within our hearts and minds, that they will leave us alone or, even better, seek to join us!

And having been a former Protestant, with nothing but the scriptures for some 20 yrs. , what else but they (the scriptures) and God led me to the Church (Orthodoxy).

 

[Teke]

To the OP question.

Orthodoxy does not teach universal salvation. Orthodox are more naturalistic or ecological minded, meaning they see the natural order created.

I believe St Basil describes it best in "The Human Condition"(book title). As he relates on the subject of consumption. A natural occurence in the created order of things.

This agrees with scriptures proclamation of death being swallowed up in life. This is a basic occurence in the created order. So it also agrees with creation.

That humanity suffers from consumption, is the reason it needed the healing of God (Incarnation, Resurrection) to regenerate to life that which will stand all ages. ie. become eternal

 

[Akathist]

I think it is important to seperate the difference between "eternal life" and "salvation".

All have "eternal life" as Christ has conqured death by His death.

However, "salvation", to me at least, implies what we mean by "theosis" which is drawing ourselves closer and closer to purity and Truth as we seek to put our own selves aside and live only for Christ. In my opinion, the afterlife will be different for those who chose to seek Christ than for those who reject Him.

Salvation would be the positive result of this. "Damnation" would be the negative. (IN MY opinion.)

This is not the same as "universal salvation" that teaches that all will be in "heaven" (the positive).

Universal salvation is heresy (in my opinion) based on a number of bible verses. No doctrine of the Orthodox Church can contradict Scriptures as the Church historically has interpreted those scriptures.

When I was a "Protestant" I was taught by the particular churches I attended, that "eternal life" was granted only to those who were "saved" from death. I saw salvation and "eternal life" as the same thing. My thought of "hell" was that there one did not have "life" but still suffered. It was never really all that clear to me however.

 

[Orthocat]

One thing to keep in mind, being there once myself, is that Protestants spend most of their time analyzing, taking apart, dissecting, dissimulating, coagulating, conjugating, and constipating every jot and tittle of scripture.
Is this wrong? No, not necessarily. "Study to show yourselves approved". We would all do well to study as hard.

The question however, is not "will everyone be saved?" The one who states, "I know for a fact...." is certainly deceived, because we do not know who will be saved and who will not. The one that states, "the scriptures say this..." can also be deceived in his mind without teaching and tradition to uphold him, because the evil one can quote scripture and invade your mind.

Many of the holy fathers prayed for even the salvation of the fallen ones and Satan himself. Seems a little crazy huh? But they knew, it's not a matter of how long or who will be or how they would be - it's a matter of we should be praying for everyone and everything to know the glory and love of our Father.

Don't waste time in theological disputes as the scribes and pharisees. God is not found there.
Remember, one of the main differences between east and west - in the east a theologian is not someone who has dissected every word of scripture. A theologian to us is someone who has spent so much time in prayer and worship and communion with God that the light and love of God radiates from him/her.

It is good to study for exhortation and encouragement and teaching and correction. It is better to know God.

"universal salvation" - you can argue this until the cows come home and what have you accomplished?
But be careful - when you start saying "not everyone will be saved" then you may as well add, "because I am better than...."


Forgive me - I'm going back to sleep now...

 

[Ioan cel Nou]

One thing to keep in mind, being there once myself, is that Protestants spend most of their time analyzing, taking apart, dissecting, dissimulating, coagulating, conjugating, and constipating every jot and tittle of scripture.
Is this wrong? No, not necessarily. "Study to show yourselves approved". We would all do well to study as hard.

The question however, is not "will everyone be saved?" The one who states, "I know for a fact...." is certainly deceived, because we do not know who will be saved and who will not. The one that states, "the scriptures say this..." can also be deceived in his mind without teaching and tradition to uphold him, because the evil one can quote scripture and invade your mind.

Many of the holy fathers prayed for even the salvation of the fallen ones and Satan himself. Seems a little crazy huh? But they knew, it's not a matter of how long or who will be or how they would be - it's a matter of we should be praying for everyone and everything to know the glory and love of our Father.

Don't waste time in theological disputes as the scribes and pharisees. God is not found there.
Remember, one of the main differences between east and west - in the east a theologian is not someone who has dissected every word of scripture. A theologian to us is someone who has spent so much time in prayer and worship and communion with God that the light and love of God radiates from him/her.

It is good to study for exhortation and encouragement and teaching and correction. It is better to know God.

"universal salvation" - you can argue this until the cows come home and what have you accomplished?
But be careful - when you start saying "not everyone will be saved" then you may as well add, "because I am better than...."


Forgive me - I'm going back to sleep now...

Now I don't need to post. You've said it all for me.

James

 

[Teke]

The point of studying scripture is not to prove universal salvation. (Tho some might think it is.) It is to better relate the truths of God to others in an effective manner. ie. verbal communication

Universal salvation is a misleading concept. Only by knowing what one is truly desiring to look into, can it be addressed directly.

And to Orthodox, salvation is not micromanaged as it is by Protestants, who categorize (justification, sanctification, glorification) . Orthodox simply see it as a whole. Meaning synergism. And that being toward theosis.

What I've found in my studies and talking with christians in general. Is they all fall into one of two categories. They are either synergists, or monergists.

Synergism makes the most sense. Monergism has a lot of problems.

Then there is the fact that words like "universal salvation" are really another way of asking about "limited" and "unlimited" atonement.

Atonement is a uniquely English word. And it does not equate to salvation. Both have different meanings. So one would have to know what the person is specifically referring to in their understanding.

Otherwise you just can't make heads or tails out of where a person is coming from in their understanding.