Universal reconciliation

[jugghead]

This is actually something good to remember when
discussing UR with others. For some, to accept UR
could involve some serious backlash from friends,
family, and congregation.

I remember when, as a Catholic, I went all born-again
on everyone and the grief I got from folks as a result.
Rocking the proverbial boat is not for the faint of heart.

Going from assurance of one's own salvation to
assurance of *everyone's* salvation carries with it the
same potential for backlash—involving, ironically
enough, arguments similar to those used against
being saved-by-faith-alone/assurance of one's own
salvation.

But you know what? UR wasn't argued into me. All it
took was seeing 1 Corinthians 15:22—a verse I had
seen many, many times before—in a spontaneously
different light, pretty much out of the blue, and
researching further the particular line of soteriology
suggested by it, and strengthened by other verses
echoing that same soteriology.

I think UR will also probably be easier to digest if one
*genuinely* likes the idea of the ultimate well-being
of *every single soul*. If there's even a little bit of
the prodigal son's "righteous" brother in one's
mentality on the subject, then the idea of UR is more
likely going to be just plain annoying.
-

I believe this is why Jesus tells people not to say anything when they were healed, or to go into an inner room in secret, if UR is studied in secret, no backlash is received from others, but the one thing that will not and cannot be hid is the change in their lives towards others and it is then that people will start to ask questions about the change, but by the time people see the change, it is so grounded in you ... you are not ashamed of the "Good News" and will start to discuss it openly. This is only my opinion but I see it happening in myself... and in the same way ... I know others see it in themselves also

 

[Gregory Thompson]

That's the thing, if you have good news, then it just makes the rest of the preaching look like a "God Spell"

 

[Hillsage]

I remember when, as a Catholic, I went all born-again
on everyone and the grief I got from folks as a result.
Rocking the proverbial boat is not for the faint of heart.

Then add getting the baptism of the Spirit on top of that, like this Catholic boy. But my testimony really started when I'd gotten my girlfriend pregnant and 'had' to get married at 19...in the Roman Catholic church of course, since that's what I'd been born, baptized, raised...and 4 months after marriage divorced in. Well this was in '68' and 'the Church' was still pretty staunch on that unforgivable sin (seemed to me anyway). So they let me know that I couldn't have communion any more or get remarried (unless she died), but be sure to bring my money. What for? I figured, from their perspective, I was hell bound for sure anyway. So I made the conscious decision right then that if God approved of the only church in town with a bar called Knights of Columbus where Roman Catholics got snockered while I was going to hell then I wouldn't want to be with Him anyway. And for the next 4 years I made sure I'd be worthy of their God's ETERNAL HELL. Long story short; women, sex, prostitutes, VD twice, drinking, drugs, dealing, grand theft, smuggling. But then one night when I was selling drugs, drawing un-employment and working one night a week in a bar for cash, a girl came in and invited me to her house to hear some long haired Jesus Freak "Lay a rap on us." I accepted Him that night, on my own, after leaving her house, and got Spirit baptized with that 'TONGUIES (sic) thing' 6 months later. Then the Lord answered my 'now' wife's prayer to get married again...GOD FORBID!!!...No wait..CHURCH FORBID. When we go to tell my sold out to 'the church' parents, they run to the priest, who tells them to not even go to the wedding. After seeing what 'the God I was serving' had done in cleaning up my life, I was pretty shocked...and then mad. I told them if they didn't show up, to write me off as a son. Bad boy Bad boy....I know. Anyway an aunt talked them in to coming. Since then is a whole lot more testimony.

But you know what? UR wasn't argued into me. All it
took was seeing 1 Corinthians 15:22—a verse I had
seen many, many times before—in a spontaneously
different light,

You had eyes to see. I was so blinded by ET that even 'that' verse still meant 'all that accepted him' instead of what the word of God simply says "in Christ shall ALL be made alive." So we really should have more compassion for those who ARE where were WERE. But it certainly would be nice, if they even 'tried' to help a little bit in that department IMO.

I think UR will also probably be easier to digest if one
*genuinely* likes the idea of the ultimate well-being
of *every single soul*.

Why ET would even be easier to accept, if more of them actually believed it enough to be as ostracized as we're willing to be. If they really believed then why aren't they ALL out there banging on doors and trying to get people saved? When my pastor for 10 years finally found out I'd been a UR believer for 10 years before coming to his church he couldn't believe it. He said; "How can you believe that? Why, you've brought more people into this church than anyone else." I took that as quite a compliment. OK enough talk from me. I'd like to hear some of your testimonies. After all we overcome with the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony

 

[Der Alte]

This is actually something good to remember when
discussing UR with others. For some, to accept UR
could involve some serious backlash from friends,
family, and congregation.

I remember when, as a Catholic, I went all born-again
on everyone and the grief I got from folks as a result.
Rocking the proverbial boat is not for the faint of heart.

Going from assurance of one's own salvation to
assurance of *everyone's* salvation carries with it the
same potential for backlash—involving, ironically
enough, arguments similar to those used against
being saved-by-faith-alone/assurance of one's own
salvation.

But you know what? UR wasn't argued into me. All it
took was seeing 1 Corinthians 15:22—a verse I had
seen many, many times before—in a spontaneously
different light, pretty much out of the blue, and
researching further the particular line of soteriology
suggested by it, and strengthened by other verses
echoing that same soteriology.

I think UR will also probably be easier to digest if one
*genuinely* likes the idea of the ultimate well-being
of *every single soul*. If there's even a little bit of
the prodigal son's "righteous" brother in one's
mentality on the subject, then the idea of UR is more
likely going to be just plain annoying.-

My Bible has 31,172 verses in it and you are basing a complete doctrine on one out-of-context proof text.
.
Just because something "feels good" to someone is a extremely poor reason to believe it to be true.
.
It appears to me that you have at some time or another fervently held three different doctrines, Catholic, born-again and UR. That does not inspire a lot of confidence. What's next?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

If everyone faces an eternity in glory, everyone being eternally happy then there would seem to be at the very least, less of a reason for being "saved" right now. Appointed to us once to live, then Judgment but no worries regardless of all that and no matter how we live this life, everyone will be just fine in the end.
So go ahead eat the fruit, do as you will not His Will, as there really isn't an eternal consequence for it - you will get to live forever with Him no matter what He said about eating that fruit. Sounds familiar some how.

 

[jugghead]

to Der alter ... you misunderstand ... that was just a starting point with chaela

as for Drbubbalove .... we do not believe there are no consequences, death is a consequence and "EVERYONE" pays

 

[jerry kelso]

Then add getting the baptism of the Spirit on top of that, like this Catholic boy. But my testimony really started when I'd gotten my girlfriend pregnant and 'had' to get married at 19...in the Roman Catholic church of course, since that's what I'd been born, baptized, raised...and 4 months after marriage divorced in. Well this was in '68' and 'the Church' was still pretty staunch on that unforgivable sin (seemed to me anyway). So they let me know that I couldn't have communion any more or get remarried (unless she died), but be sure to bring my money. What for? I figured, from their perspective, I was hell bound for sure anyway. So I made the conscious decision right then that if God approved of the only church in town with a bar called Knights of Columbus where Roman Catholics got snockered while I was going to hell then I wouldn't want to be with Him anyway. And for the next 4 years I made sure I'd be worthy of their God's ETERNAL HELL. Long story short; women, sex, prostitutes, VD twice, drinking, drugs, dealing, grand theft, smuggling. But then one night when I was selling drugs, drawing un-employment and working one night a week in a bar for cash, a girl came in and invited me to her house to hear some long haired Jesus Freak "Lay a rap on us." I accepted Him that night, on my own, after leaving her house, and got Spirit baptized with that 'TONGUIES (sic) thing' 6 months later. Then the Lord answered my 'now' wife's prayer to get married again...GOD FORBID!!!...No wait..CHURCH FORBID. When we go to tell my sold out to 'the church' parents, they run to the priest, who tells them to not even go to the wedding. After seeing what 'the God I was serving' had done in cleaning up my life, I was pretty shocked...and then mad. I told them if they didn't show up, to write me off as a son. Bad boy Bad boy....I know. Anyway an aunt talked them in to coming. Since then is a whole lot more testimony.

You had eyes to see. I was so blinded by ET that even 'that' verse still meant 'all that accepted him' instead of what the word of God simply says "in Christ shall ALL be made alive." So we really should have more compassion for those who ARE where were WERE. But it certainly would be nice, if they even 'tried' to help a little bit in that department IMO.


Why ET would even be easier to accept, if more of them actually believed it enough to be as ostracized as we're willing to be. If they really believed then why aren't they ALL out there banging on doors and trying to get people saved? When my pastor for 10 years finally found out I'd been a UR believer for 10 years before coming to his church he couldn't believe it. He said; "How can you believe that? Why, you've brought more people into this church than anyone else." I took that as quite a compliment. OK enough talk from me. I'd like to hear some of your testimonies. After all we overcome with the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony

hillsage,

1. I loved your testimony and I am glad that you got saved. After all in your experience it is easy to believe UR and even as a christian I don't really want to see anyone stay in hell forever even though sin has to be punished or suffer consequences of some kind whether ET or final death.

2. The bible also says to rightly divide the word. You gave the scripture 1 Corinthians 15:22 as proof of reconciliation. Now you can believe UR if you'd like and I don't think that is going to effect your salvation for one has to abide in Christ and be obedient through faith and not sow to the flesh but to the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. If this scripture was just by itself you could believe in UR. You are reading it as all in Adam die which is true for we are born into sin. You render the 2nd half with the same meaning; even so in Christ shall all be made alive. A plain statement at first glance and one could interpret that to be made alive just like all are born into sin and no exceptions. However, this is where the context must be understood in a whole passage and the overall subject.

3. The 23rd verse says; But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are at his coming. You could still prove your point as a matter of those that are at his coming as in verse 22.
The problem is that the death, burial, and resurrection is the gospel as Paul proclaimed earlier in the chapter, vs. 1-4. Verse 2, the requirement for being saved was keeping in memory. If not kept they could lose their salvation. This proves unconditional eternal security is not true.
His argument was with those who didn't believe in the resurrection in vs. 12. They were sinners and if they did not get saved they would die in their sins.

4. There is no doubt that people will die in their sins and go to hell after they die otherwise there would be no reason for the resurrection of the body and for the sinners to be judged for their sinful works. So your implication understood in the plain sense to prove UR is just that an implication. You are drawing a conclusion of UR because the way that it appears. The point is that for your position to be true, UR would have to be true before a person dies. A person has to be saved if he is reconciled to God. If not, then everything about living for God to escape eternal separation from God means nothing and God has no right to judge anyone or even a right basis to judge. The bottom line in your view of this verse is your opinion and no hard evidence.

5. The whole point of UR is for one to eventually be reconciled to God after death for it cannot be before because many have already died in their sins and many more will die in their sins lost without God.
The basis for one to be in Christ to be made alive is salvation and I don't think we disagree there. But this has to do with accepting Christ and being in Christ spiritually just like we when we were sinners before we accepted him. Just as all die in Adam is true because of physical death and spiritual death if they die. This won't happen to many if we are in Christ. So everyone who chooses God and his salvation will avoid that spiritual death and if they are in the rapture they will miss the physical death of going to the grave. This verse has no time factor after death. It is meeting the requirement of being in Christ that folks will be saved just as sure as being born a human constitutes we are born into sin. John 5:29 talks about the resurrection of the just and unjust some to life and others to resurrection of damnation. The unjust are resurrection specifically for damnation and there sinful works are judged to see what kind of judgement they will receive for their sinful works.

6. There is no where in scripture that even implies that the resurrection of the damned is for any reason to reconcile them back to God.
Hebrews 9:27; And it is appointed unto man once to die, but after this the judgement. The judgement for sinners once they die will be judged for their sinful works. Christ died for all but not all will choose to serve him. Abraham told the rich man in hell being tormented and wanting to prevent his family from going there; said, if they will not listen to Moses and the prophets then they would surely not believe if one rose from the dead. They would not be persuaded to repent.

You can believe whatever you desire but the scripture does not hold your opinion for it is based on truth. Jerry kelso

 

[DrBubbaLove]

to Der alter ... you misunderstand ... that was just a starting point with chaela

as for Drbubbalove .... we do not believe there are no consequences, death is a consequence and "EVERYONE" pays

Well that is rather my point. We all believe in death even the atheist. Death BTW was but one consequence of Adam's sin. And the fact everyone faces the same death and in the UR view ultimately Glory, means there is absolutely no real eternal consequence for how we live this life. Party hard for tomorrow we die.

 

[Hillsage]

After all in your experience it is easy to believe UR

You need to read closer. I was a ET believer all my life clear up until the time I said; "Up yours God, I'd rather go to your eternal Hell with all my friends than be a hypocrite of a believer like 'most' "Christians" I knew." And you know nothing about how I came TO BELIEVE in UR. I was a saved ETer several years before even being exposed to UR. And then it took me 10 years of studying and seeking and praying with NO INTERNET in existence to even help find 'the truth' like today. All that time I was just HOPING it was true, before I was completely sold out to believing UR over ET.

and even as a christian I don't really want to see anyone stay in hell forever even though sin has to be punished or suffer consequences of some kind whether ET or final death.

If that were true, you'd be asking questions to believe in it. You aren't, you are fighting against it and consistently proving to me you don't understand it. That's why we aren't going to talk much longer Jerry.

2. The bible also says to rightly divide the word. You gave the scripture 1 Corinthians 15:22 as proof of reconciliation.

Since you've quoted it several times lets just start with your first misunderstanding of the scripture.

2 Timothy 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

The word “approved” in the Greek refers to being ‘tested’ or assayed, as to its being real. You are not approved just because you fight for an adherence to a your statement of faith. You are ‘approved’ if ‘what you talk/believe’ manifests when you are ‘tested’ to compromise in your ‘walk of faith’.

In jail ministry I used to frequently hear from the “Christian” inmates, who had nothing but time to study bibles and memorize scriptures to 'fight' with doctrinally. They often told me that I wasn’t as “approved studying the word” as they were. I told them they weren’t “proving” themselves of anything but the arrogance of believing that they wouldn’t go back to being drunks/drug addicts/thieves the minute they left the jail and went back to the sin bin which they didn’t even have access to ‘in jail’, to be tempted with! No matter how big their talk was, I was constantly reminded as to the truth of my words and a CORRECT understanding of 2Tim 2:15, every time one of them got out, and a few months later they were right back in.

Walking the walk is ‘approved’ Christianity. Scripture approved of the son who spoke it wrong and walked it right ‘in his father’s vineyard, but scripture condemns the son who spoke it right and walked it wrong, by never going..

Many, you included, incorrectly think contending doctrinally for 'the talk' is 'the walk' which only proves to me that they really aren't "rightly handling the word of truth" as well as they think.

Now you can believe UR if you'd like and I don't think that is going to effect your salvation for one has to abide in Christ and be obedient through faith and not sow to the flesh but to the Spirit.

I don't think it will affect an ETer's salvation believing God is Lord of an eternal torture worse than Hitler's Auschwitz either.

As regarding your "abide in Christ" comment, I have two things to say.
1. Where is that at scripturally.
2.You never answered my last post asking you to define the difference between "Christ in you" versus "you in Christ". Which one supports your unscriptural "abide in Christ" comment?

I didn't read any farther in your post because to correct so much peripheral error IMO, simply takes too much time. I thought I proved that last time. So, if your post won't fit on 'the screen' it's probably more 'a pity' than it is "pithy", as you think.

And, as I said earlier, if you don't don't really have questions FOR UR I'm just not interested in fighting against your misunderstandings of it.

 

[jugghead]

All of us have been trained in the law of God, knowing good and evil ..... but until we are trained in the love, grace/mercy of God ... we only have part of the truth

Our heavenly Father does not show us mercy/grace because we obey His law (earning His mercy/grace/love).... He shows us mercy/grace because He loves us (freely gives it) ..... and by that free giving of it, all desires of transgressing the law are done away with

Until we are freely given of His Holy Spirit we cannot love our enemies, I love my enemies by freely forgiving them in my heart

And people of this world cannot out give (out forgive) our heavenly Father

 

[DrBubbaLove]

All of us have been trained in the law of God, knowing good and evil ..... but until we are trained in the love, grace/mercy of God ... we only have part of the truth

Our heavenly Father does not show us mercy/grace because we obey His law (earning His mercy/grace/love).... He shows us mercy/grace because He loves us (freely gives it) ..... and by that free giving of it, all desires of transgressing the law are done away with

Until we are freely given of His Holy Spirit we cannot love our enemies, I love my enemies by freely forgiving them in my heart

And people of this world cannot out give (out forgive) our heavenly Father

I do not think one side has a monopoly on God's ability to Love and I do not think the opposing view restricts it.

Forgiveness does not mean there are no consequences for transgression. You have plainly stated the only consequence for transgressions against God is death. As death comes for us all, one cannot say that same consequence, death, represents God's Justice for each individual transgression as clearly our individual transgression differ greatly before we die. To rectify that am guessing one would say, well that is what all this talk of Hell is about, Justice. Well by itself that would be a way to address the injustice of people in this world. BTW, keep in mind the only reason we die at all is due the single sin of one man. ("by one man death....")

However one has just said God forgives all our transgressions, everyone's equally and that death equals the only consequence. Those ideas of what God's Love and Justice are do not go together. So how then does anyone merit any punishment after death?
IOW why should anyone go to Hell at all if everything is forgiven and death our only consequence?

 

[Rajni]

It appears to me that you have at some time or another fervently held three different doctrines, Catholic, born-again and UR. That does not inspire a lot of confidence.

Given that learning new things is, ideally, an ongoing process,
a process which can involve admitting when one
might have been wrong on any given point (an
excruciating or exhilarating experience depending on
one's perspective), it does appear that spiritual stagnation
will not be a key factor in my spiritual journey.

But you see, I'm not afraid of new paradigms.
I actually welcome them. The Catholic / born-again /
UR stages aren't even the whole story, which
has continued to develop due to my realization that
God cannot be crammed into little theological boxes.
I'm not sure He could be crammed into all of them
collectively, either.

Anyway, while that might not inspire confidence from *others*
(not that it was ever my job to do so), it has required confidence
from *me* (and, indeed, from anyone whose journey would
see development rather than decay). Again, it's definitely
not for the faint of heart. But if said confidence is placed
in *Him*, it's all good. At least, that's what He's shown me.

If that were true, you'd be asking questions to believe in it. You aren't, you are fighting against it and consistently proving to me you don't understand it. That's why we aren't going to talk much longer Jerry.

I think that's the key. There are those who sincerely
wish to understand a particular position, and if they
truly want to believe it, I would think they'd find the
debate-approach less effective than quietly researching
the topic.

This is why I try not to let myself get sucked into the
theological tennis-matches as much as I used to (and
oh lordy, how I used to!). If a genuine desire to learn
is the other person's goal, debate is useful only to a
point. Beyond that point, I think it's just an egoic
addiction, to be truly honest, and since one of my
current goals is to show my ego who's boss (I've been
learning just how much of a trouble-maker ego can
be), I'm more likely to just let the argumentative types
have their say and let it drop. The world would be a boring
place if everyone believed the same things anyway.

So guys, if I don't counter-argue something, please don't take
it personally; I'm refraining out of respect for my own sanity
rather than to be spiteful. Sappy as this may sound, in the
end I want Love to prevail.

-


-

 

[2KnowHim]

To Dr Bubba

I see you have a lot to learn about the way God views "Death", or Biblical Death.
From what I see in your post you see death as someone dying physically and being buried in a grave.
That is not what Death is to God though.

There is a process that the soul will go through whether on this side or the other, it can be referred to as...
dying daily, dying to self etc...It truly means to pour out your soul unto death, as Jesus did for us. And we MUST experience this in order to Live, or have the quality of The Life of our Lord.

This is what it means to be Saved...which most christians today don't have a clue about.
In order to Live the Life of Christ you must submit to the slaying of your soul, this is His Resurection Life we experience continually. For it is no longer "I" who live, But "Christ" in me.
Then and only then will you be able to understand the Plan of God to be All and in All.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

To Dr Bubba

I see you have a lot to learn about the way God views "Death", or Biblical Death.
From what I see in your post you see death as someone dying physically and being buried in a grave.
That is not what Death is to God though.

There is a process that the soul will go through whether on this side or the other, it can be referred to as...
dying daily, dying to self etc...It truly means to pour out your soul unto death, as Jesus did for us. And we MUST experience this in order to Live, or have the quality of The Life of our Lord.

This is what it means to be Saved...which most christians today don't have a clue about.
In order to Live the Life of Christ you must submit to the slaying of your soul, this is His Resurection Life we experience continually. For it is no longer "I" who live, But "Christ" in me.
Then and only then will you be able to understand the Plan of God to be All and in All.

Well thanks I guess for assuming most everyone here and myself are ignorant simpletons.

The post you replied to was a response to someone else who had said nothing of what his view of death was, simply that death waits for all of us and is the consequence of sin.

I happen to agree death can be a label for separation. Which is actually relevant to this thread in that we are discussing whether it could be Just and God like to have that separation be permanent. UR says no, orthodox view has always been yes. As God indicates the need to not allow man (Adam) the potential of living forever AFTER and because of the Fall, clearly the "separation" which exists because of sin needs to be permanent and one we ourselves cannot overcome.

If we take the simple approach that all one needs to do is learn to die to self daily (which I agree is a good thing to strive for), then we would be acknowledging two things; we did not really need God to become man and die for our sins and we really can overcome the separation created by sin ourselves (to save our self),
This reality of such thoughts is further supported by the thinking that those who do not "learn" to die to self daily can "learn" to do it in the next life, either because of some degree of discomfort or pain OR because they go through a process which somehow is seen as removing from them whatever it is about them that is preventing them from "learning" (which kept them selfish instead of self-less in this life. One can say we learn by teaching and that is true, but learning is something each of us do ourselves (to save our self).

So while I agree learning to die to self is not a bad endeavor, I obviously disagree that learning to do so is the purpose for our creation or something we can "do" for ourselves.

And, back to the original discussion into which you inserted yourself and took a curve from; even if we say death is separation and everyone faces it, that does not address the inequality, the lack of Justice in everyone facing the same consequence -separation from God - which was the point of the post you replied to.

 

[Der Alte]

NT

 

[2KnowHim]

The post you replied to was a response to someone else who had said nothing of what his view of death was, simply that death waits for all of us and is the consequence of sin.

I know who you were responding to, that's why I said what I did about your view of death. To us there is only One view of Death and that's the way God views it. And by your response it was clear that you were not seeing it as we do.

I happen to agree death can be a label for separation.

Not "can be" but is....Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
This separation came through Adam's disobedience, and because of it, this "Death" passed upon all men. We all have been dead men walking. But....right here is where everything changed...
Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Jesus experienced "Our Separation" from God when He took on the sin of The whole world, and this He did for All mankind.

Which is actually relevant to this thread in that we are discussing whether it could be Just and God like to have that separation be permanent.

Because of what I just posted above, is why it could never be a permenant state. Because The Son paid the Price in full.
He literally took our Death into His Death, so eventually everyone will Know and experience this Ultimate Sacrifice of Himself, but Only when God permits, in Due time.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

f we take the simple approach that all one needs to do is learn to die to self daily (which I agree is a good thing to strive for), then we would be acknowledging two things; we did not really need God to become man and die for our sins and we really can overcome the separation created by sin ourselves (to save our self),

This is NOT something to be learned, it is something to be experienced through The Spirit of God, this is the purpose of His crucifixtion. We cannot learn how to die to self, there must be an exchange of Life for Life, soul for soul. Only through The Revelation of Christ can one begin to die, or begin the process of exchange. For He must increase and we must decrease.
For a few this has begun, as we become partakers of His life here and now. But for most because of teachings of men that imprison mens minds, this will never be attained to on this side Jordan.
Hos 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
Hos 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

Anyone who has or is experiencing this process now, will tell you, that it is NOT a simple thing, and it will bring a strong man to his knees in tears. Gethsemane is not something to be read about, it is for us to experience in Him, but we must first count the cost.
I once knew a brother in Christ that said to me....."Well sister.....if what your saying is truth, then I would have to go back 40 yrs. and start again". He never did, and He still remains in the church warming the pues and holding on to his traditions and doctrines of the church he attends.

NO ONE, could experience The Life and Death of Christ and still believe in ET, it's just not possible.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I know who you were responding to, that's why I said what I did about your view of death. To us there is only One view of Death and that's the way God views it. And by your response it was clear that you were not seeing it as we do.



Not "can be" but is....Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
This separation came through Adam's disobedience, and because of it, this "Death" passed upon all men. We all have been dead men walking. But....right here is where everything changed...
Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Jesus experienced "Our Separation" from God when He took on the sin of The whole world, and this He did for All mankind.



Because of what I just posted above, is why it could never be a permenant state. Because The Son paid the Price in full.
He literally took our Death into His Death, so eventually everyone will Know and experience this Ultimate Sacrifice of Himself, but Only when God permits, in Due time.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.



This is NOT something to be learned, it is something to be experienced through The Spirit of God, this is the purpose of His crucifixtion. We cannot learn how to die to self, there must be an exchange of Life for Life, soul for soul. Only through The Revelation of Christ can one begin to die, or begin the process of exchange. For He must increase and we must decrease.
For a few this has begun, as we become partakers of His life here and now. But for most because of teachings of men that imprison mens minds, this will never be attained to on this side Jordan.
Hos 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
Hos 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

Anyone who has or is experiencing this process now, will tell you, that it is NOT a simple thing, and it will bring a strong man to his knees in tears. Gethsemane is not something to be read about, it is for us to experience in Him, but we must first count the cost.
I once knew a brother in Christ that said to me....."Well sister.....if what your saying is truth, then I would have to go back 40 yrs. and start again". He never did, and He still remains in the church warming the pues and holding on to his traditions and doctrines of the church he attends.

NO ONE, could experience The Life and Death of Christ and still believe in ET, it's just not possible.

Ok, so did the thief on the Cross experience separation from God, who had just told him that he would be with Him that very day?

Claiming indirectly that most Christians are not Christians is rather rude. I disagree with both your assessment of those who disagree with you and also your view of God being opposed to permanent separation.

When Adam was told he was about to be banished from being fully in God's presence was there any indication from God that the separation was just temporary?
When Adam sinned, creating the reason for that banishment, why would it be important that he not live forever if the separation was temporary?
When God told His Children to use capital punishment, was that not endorsing permanent separation?
Why would we need the supernatural Grace to overcome a separation that is claimed to be temporary?

 

[Hillsage]

Claiming indirectly that most Christians are not Christians is rather rude. I disagree with both your assessment of those who disagree with you and also your view of God being opposed to permanent separation.

But claiming someone is a "snake charmer" in 2 posts isn't?

JAM 1:23 For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror;
24 for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.

When Adam was told he was about to be banished from being fully in God's presence was there any indication from God that the separation was just temporary?

Do you know the difference between 'being fully in the presence of God' and 'being fully kicked 'out of the Garden of God'? Let me help, for what it's worth.

GEN 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

P.S. In case you didn't catch it, Cain wasn't born in the Garden.

 

[FanthatSpark]

Dearest Father,

Look at da knowledge being bantered back and forth, some in labor , some in Spirit, all to the goodness of you Father God . All paths are good paths for your molding God .

 

[DrBubbaLove]

But claiming someone is a "snake charmer" in 2 posts isn't?

Depends on how sensitive one is I guess. Apparently for those that are hyper-sensitive it must be so. To me comparing someone's penchant for quoting things out of context to another group that does the same to justify their practice is hardly the same as suggesting, even indirectly that I am not Christian. It also is attacking methods rather than the person, which is another reason I would not make that comparison. Thanks for playing.

Do you know the difference between 'being fully in the presence of God' and 'being fully kicked 'out of the Garden of God'? Let me help, for what it's worth.

GEN 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

P.S. In case you didn't catch it, Cain wasn't born in the Garden.

The point was about permanent versus temporary, and the question was why it should be important that Adam not live forever if his banishment was only temporary vs permanent - the claim being all humans are only temporarily separated from God.

In case you didn't catch it, Adam walked with God and could have remained so eternally happy had he not sinned and there is no mention in his banishment of it being temporary - in fact the fact he would now die suggests a permanence to that [banished] condition - one which would require supernatural intervention to overcome - rather than a temporary one that come to end no matter what.