Universal reconciliation

[2KnowHim]

Philippians 2:13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure/will,choice.

Excellent scripture Hillsage, and you and I can see the Truth in this......But, you know that someone is going to come back at you and say that this is ONLY referring to Christians right? Not to mention the good ole standby "out of context".
My question is where is it ever said that we are to take scripture in context?

 

[Hillsage]

Excellent scripture Hillsage, and you and I can see the Truth in this......But, you know that someone is going to come back at you and say that this is ONLY referring to Christians right? Not to mention the good ole standby "out of context".

I did think of that and thought of course they are. But I do find it amazing how those 'standards' always apply...unless we apply them right back....isn't it?

My question is where is it ever said that we are to take scripture in context?

Oooh, I hope that's 'the case'. Things are screwed up enough, how much worse could they make it if 'it' weren't?

 

[OldShepherd]

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[Hillsage]

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We heartily agree.

 

[cgaviria]

I'm reading a book a book whose purpose is to give "three views of hell", traditional, anihilation, and universal reconciliation. My question is, " do you think universal reconciliation is heresy?

It is heresy. The scriptures are clear about complete annihilation of sinners in a fire that will exist on the earth. The fire will not be extinguished and will last from the time the heads of governments and militaries of the two beasts of Revelation are tossed in it to the final judgment day where even the rest of the dead will be raised in a second great resurrection to be annihilated in this same fire as well. There is a passage in Isaiah that make it evident that the carcasses of men will be clearly seen in this fiery garbage dump,

And they shall go forth, and shall see the carcasses of men, the ones violating against me. For their worm shall not come to an end, and their fire shall not be extinguished. And they will be for a sight to all flesh. (Isaiah 66:24 [ABP])

The beastly nations are tossed into the fire shortly after the glorious coming of Jesus Christ and the first resurrection of the dead. The great supper of Revelation is also mentioned in relation to this tossing of the beasts of Revelation into this fire. The birds feeding on the carcasses of men IS the great supper of God RIGHT after the those that IN CHRIST, whether DEAD OR ALIVE, are RAISED UP FROM THE DEAD (FIRST RESURRECTION), or TRANSFORMED IF ALIVE ON THE EARTH TO MEET HIM IN THE AIR, THIS IS THE MARRIAGE OF CHRIST AND THE LAMB.

 

[Der Alte]

The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

If Jesus had wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, He knew the word for death and that is what He would have said but He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died, young, old, good, bad, and knew that it was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.

Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.

Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992

Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”

(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)

G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:

“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
.
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism - Bible Truth Discussion Forum​

 

[cgaviria]

The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

If Jesus had wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, He knew the word for death and that is what He would have said but He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died, young, old, good, bad, and knew that it was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.

Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.

Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992

Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”

(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)

G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:

“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
.
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism - Bible Truth Discussion Forum​

If people thrown into the fire of gehenna remained alive "forever" as you say, then why is it that the scripture in Isaiah which "Mk 9:43-48" alludes to (fire not quenched, worm doesn't die, its obvious both scriptures are related) says that the carcasses of men thrown there will be around for everyone to see? You can only have a carcass if you DIE. The punishment of death is "eternal", because the duration of the death that results from being thrown into this fire is ENDLESS. YOU DIE FOREVER. This fire is said to be inextinguishable because this same fire that will exist after the second coming of Jesus Christ will remain burning THROUGH his 1,000 reign and INTO the day of the GREAT AND FINAL JUDGMENT, where ones judged there will ALSO be thrown INTO this same FIRE that has lasted all this time.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

Why is everyone taking quite figurative language about fire, pits, beasts, worms, etc so literally? The NT doesn't have one single concept of an afterlife, it has many and one can say of them that "now we see through a mirror, dimly", they are images and express a longing for, a hope of eternal life in God's presence.

 

[cgaviria]

Why is everyone taking quite figurative language about fire, pits, beasts, worms, etc so literally? The NT doesn't have one single concept of an afterlife, it has many and one can say of them that "now we see through a mirror, dimly", they are images and express a longing for, a hope of eternal life in God's presence.

The fire is in fact literal. You have to discern what is literal and what is figurative. Just as water was used before to destroy the world, now God will use fire. Its a literal thing. The second coming of Jesus Christ, literal thing, not just "figurative". What do you think he will do when he comes? Shake the hand of all the presidents in the world? No, he comes to kill the heads of governments and militaries and establish his own kingdom and rulership over the earth. How are they killed by him? By having them tossed in the fire. IT IS LITERAL.

 

[Der Alte]

If people thrown into the fire of gehenna remained alive "forever" as you say, then why is it that the scripture in Isaiah which "Mk 9:43-48" alludes to (fire not quenched, worm doesn't die, its obvious both scriptures are related) says that the carcasses of men thrown there will be around for everyone to see? You can only have a carcass if you DIE. The punishment of death is "eternal", because the duration of the death that results from being thrown into this fire is ENDLESS. YOU DIE FOREVER. This fire is said to be inextinguishable because this same fire that will exist after the second coming of Jesus Christ will remain burning THROUGH his 1,000 reign and INTO the day of the GREAT AND FINAL JUDGMENT, where ones judged there will ALSO be thrown INTO this same FIRE that has lasted all this time.

Why is everyone taking quite figurative language about fire, pits, beasts, worms, etc so literally? The NT doesn't have one single concept of an afterlife, it has many and one can say of them that "now we see through a mirror, dimly", they are images and express a longing for, a hope of eternal life in God's presence.

Did anyone read my post? I appreciate the unsupported opinions but I quoted scripture, which has not been addressed and i quoted historical Jewish sources, which also have not been addressed. The usual response of those who are considered to be part of controversial theology is to dismiss scripture which contradicts their views as, what I refer to as SPAM-Fig, symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative anything but literal.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

The fire is in fact literal. You have to discern what is literal and what is figurative. Just as water was used before to destroy the world, now God will use fire. Its a literal thing. The second coming of Jesus Christ, literal thing, not just "figurative". What do you think he will do when he comes? Shake the hand of all the presidents in the world? No, he comes to kill the heads of governments and militaries and establish his own kingdom and rulership over the earth. How are they killed by him? By having them tossed in the fire. IT IS LITERAL.

Well, now it sounds awfully figurative to me... If you are relying on "discernment" then so will I: I discern this sort of language, especially apocalyptic language, to contain the most figurative sort of language in the entire bible.

 

[cgaviria]

Did anyone read my post? I appreciate the unsupported opinions but I quoted scripture, which has not been addressed and i quoted historical Jewish sources, which also have not been addressed. The usual response of those who are considered to be part of controversial theology is to dismiss scripture which contradicts their views as, what I refer to as SPAM-Fig, symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative anything but literal.

You don't need to get into deep dissertation and read a ton of different sources to uncover truth. I only concern myself with whats in the scriptures, everything else, all other "source", are just babbles that darken understanding. I just gave you a scriptures. The scripture in Isaiah and the scripture in Mark that references it, which you also referenced. Thus far you haven't refuted those scriptures and the logic I just presented to you about the dead carcasses in this fiery gehenna where people are tossed to be killed. In one scriptural little verse I just destroyed your whole theology. Sometimes thats all it takes, and your 10 Jewish book references and all their logics cant refute scripture. You need to unlearn what you've learned outside of the scripture, and STUDY the scripture itself. Dissect it. Divide it. Understand it. How is it possible that there will be carasses in this fire? You can only find out if you DISSECT the words of God. And i've just given you the logic. Trust me, I've been doing much dissection over many years studying this very topic as well, and I used to believe the same things you did. I had to unlearn what I was taught growing up by the church, and really study what the scripture really says. You'd be surprised at how deep the deception and false doctrine runs in the churches.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

Did anyone read my post? I appreciate the unsupported opinions but I quoted scripture, which has not been addressed and i quoted historical Jewish sources, which also have not been addressed.

OK. I'll do you one better, I'll read the article you alluded to and quote some more of it:

Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.

Arguably so, since some ancient writers perceived Jerusalem to be a microcosm: They fused together the ancient concept of a paradise for the righteous (Genesis 2), the concept of a sacred mountain in the far north where the deity dwelled (Psalm 48), and an eternal sanctuary in Jerusalem (Psalm 132) that had been built according to a heavenly blueprint. Thus, the writer of the apocalypse envisioned a "new Jerusalem" that would descend from heaven, be situated atop the sacred mountain Zion, and become a paradise for the righteous (Revelation 21). The valley of Hinnom, lying beneath the walls of the restructured city, might then suggest the underworld, which in ancient Semitic cosmology lay at the roots of the world-mountain. The connection between the two Gehennas, then, would be more than a metaphor for destruction-it would be a physical result of the geography of the holy city, in which the valley above would extend down to the realm of the dead beneath, carrying along its name and fiery nature. Conversely, it might have been expected that the underworld, a place of fiery punishment from the intertestamental period onward (second century B.C.E.), would blaze up through the valley, and this might explain why the valley came to be regarded as the place of destruction of the wicked.

I think this interpretation makes sense of the data we have in the NT.

 

[cgaviria]

Well, now it sounds awfully figurative to me... If you are relying on "discernment" then so will I: I discern this sort of language, especially apocalyptic language, to contain the most figurative sort of language in the entire bible.

If you don't believe in the second coming of Jesus Christ then you are really in some deep crap buddy.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

If you don't believe in the second coming of Jesus Christ then you are really in some deep crap buddy.

I'm a Catholic. We believe that the Parousia happens at every single Eucharist.

 

[cgaviria]

I'm a Catholic. We believe that the Parousia happens at every single Eucharist.

You do realize that you serve an institution that tortured and killed millions???????? Regardless of whether you might believe if they were Christian or not, there is STILL blood on their hands. How do you think an institution like that can be the church of God? Regardless of what they teach, I won't even go there right now. How do you live with yourself supporting them? Its like someone in current times supporting Hitler if he were still alive, or supporting the Nazi party. Its just WRONG. Read up on your catholic history buddy, its just awful. In fact, go to this link https://www.google.com/search?q=cat...ved=0ahUKEwiA1Krt2qzJAhXFSyYKHVFXBMEQ_AUIBigB and look at what they have done for over a thousand years during the papacy.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

You do realize that you serve an institution that tortured and killed millions???????? Regardless of whether you might believe if they were Christian or not, there is STILL blood on their hands. How do you think an institution like that can be the church of God? Regardless of what they teach, I won't even go there right now. How do you live with yourself supporting them? Its like someone in current times supporting Hitler if he were still alive, or supporting the Nazi party. Its just WRONG. Read up on your catholic history buddy, its just awful. In fact, go to this link https://www.google.com/search?q=cat...ved=0ahUKEwiA1Krt2qzJAhXFSyYKHVFXBMEQ_AUIBigB and look at what they have done for over a thousand years during the papacy.

What do you expect to find if you google "catholic torture"?

It's the Church, simple as that, it's been wrong in the past about various things and since Vatican II it has expressly sought to situate itself within the modern world. Lutherans gave back to Catholics as much as they took, by the way, as did the Calvinists in Scotland, John Knox was very much a hatemongerer (and really very sexist). Everyone can point to the history of religion to find detestable actions by people, yet one can also look at the history of religion and find great positives; in the same way, everyone can look at the scripture and find very violent bits there, doing so will not heal ones soul and will only cement violent associations of religion.

 

[Light of the East]

It is heresy. The scriptures are clear about complete annihilation of sinners in a fire that will exist on the earth. The fire will not be extinguished and will last from the time the heads of governments and militaries of the two beasts of Revelation are tossed in it to the final judgment day where even the rest of the dead will be raised in a second great resurrection to be annihilated in this same fire as well. There is a passage in Isaiah that make it evident that the carcasses of men will be clearly seen in this fiery garbage dump,

And they shall go forth, and shall see the carcasses of men, the ones violating against me. For their worm shall not come to an end, and their fire shall not be extinguished. And they will be for a sight to all flesh. (Isaiah 66:24 [ABP])

The beastly nations are tossed into the fire shortly after the glorious coming of Jesus Christ and the first resurrection of the dead. The great supper of Revelation is also mentioned in relation to this tossing of the beasts of Revelation into this fire. The birds feeding on the carcasses of men IS the great supper of God RIGHT after the those that IN CHRIST, whether DEAD OR ALIVE, are RAISED UP FROM THE DEAD (FIRST RESURRECTION), or TRANSFORMED IF ALIVE ON THE EARTH TO MEET HIM IN THE AIR, THIS IS THE MARRIAGE OF CHRIST AND THE LAMB.

Well, that's interesting, but the first Christian pastors held to the view that God's love would win out in the end. In the Greek speaking world of the Christian East, this view of God's universal love held sway, and did so pretty much until Augustine came along. Seems to me that those closest to the source (Christ) would have a purer and more uncorrupted view.

It also seems to me that if we allow that the Bible says that God is love, then His acts have to correspond with His state of being. When I ask myself what pure love would do in regards to sinners, I keep coming up with the answer that it would do everything possible to save and redeem them, and not give up on them. Something I think we humans, broken as we are, do not understand.

 

[cgaviria]

What do you expect to find if you google "catholic torture"?

It's the Church, simple as that, it's been wrong in the past about various things and since Vatican II it has expressly sought to situate itself within the modern world. Lutherans gave back to Catholics as much as they took, by the way, as did the Calvinists in Scotland, John Knox was very much a hatemongerer (and really very sexist). Everyone can point to the history of religion to find detestable actions by people, yet one can also look at the history of religion and find great positives; in the same way, everyone can look at the scripture and find very violent bits there, doing so will not heal ones soul and will only cement violent associations of religion.

Would you really trust the nazi party if they came into existence again and said, oh we apologize for killing all those millions 11 million people? and how many did the church kill, was it not around 50 million? My advise is this, follow after the scripture, not after your catholic church. Didn't it occur to you that if these people killed so many people that ITS PERHAPS SO LIKELY that they had their theology was all messed up too? So if their theology is all messed up, didnt it occur to you that thats what their probably teaching you NOW at their church? I encourage you to STUDY the scripture on your own and you will see, with much study, that much of catholic teaching contradicts scripture. But beside doctrine, be smart. Maybe you've heard an expression similar to this, "if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, then its a duck!", or "if it smells fishy, theres something wrong here." Same thing here. You have clear signs that theres something wrong there. You cant deny its history. You also cant deny that it is now even presently political as well, as it always has been. Since when have the things of Jesus Christ been political? His TRUE church has absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH POLITICS OR GOVERNMENTS. It has to do with righteousness, with things of the spirit, being humble, loving your church brother, spreading the gospel, etc. I highly advise you to leave the catholic institution. And I can't stress it enough, only because I know HOW DEEPLY EVIL IT IS.

 

[Light of the East]

You do realize that you serve an institution that tortured and killed millions???????? Regardless of whether you might believe if they were Christian or not, there is STILL blood on their hands. How do you think an institution like that can be the church of God? Regardless of what they teach, I won't even go there right now. How do you live with yourself supporting them? Its like someone in current times supporting Hitler if he were still alive, or supporting the Nazi party. Its just WRONG. Read up on your catholic history buddy, its just awful. In fact, go to this link https://www.google.com/search?q=cat...ved=0ahUKEwiA1Krt2qzJAhXFSyYKHVFXBMEQ_AUIBigB and look at what they have done for over a thousand years during the papacy.

"A lie travels 1000 miles while the truth is still putting on its shoes."

Perhaps you should find some more reputable sources for truth regarding the Catholic church than the books and tracts you have been reading. Much of what has been written in the last 500 years regarding the Church is hate-filled rubbish which has no basis in truth.

For instance, in [ulr=[URL]http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-anti-catholic-bible]The[/URL] Anti-Catholic Bible[/url], also known as ROMAN CATHOLICISM, a book written by Lorraine Boettner, there were so many fatuous claims and outright lies that the publisher, once he found out about them, refused to have anything further to do with the book. The same can be said for the books MYSTERY BABYLON and THE TWO BABYLONS written by Hislop. And Jack Chick tracts are notorious for this sort of thing.

The fact is that you can trust the anti-Catholic bigots of the world to publish the most scurrilous of lies regarding the Church in their venomous hatred of Her. Yet there is not a single trace of either Baptist or Protestant religions or churches ever existing prior to 1517 and Luther's rebellion.

I have read figures that say that the Catholic Church murdered 70 million people during the Inquisition when there weren't even that many people in Europe at the time. What did they do...count all the non-Catholic dogs and cats as well to get to those numbers.

You have believed lies, sir.

And as for the sins in the Church, perhaps you should read again and better the Scriptures you claim to know so well. Jesus said that the Kingdom of God would be like a field in which the wheat and tares grow together. He never claimed nor taught that the Church would be pure before His return to end time and establish His eternal Kingdom.