Universal reconciliation

Jesus also tells those to depart in Matthew 7:23(NKJV)-And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!

Once again where does Jesus tell someone to depart to if it's not to the LoF? You have two verses that Jesus tells those depart from me. He certainly isn't going to tell those to depart from Him unless it was to a place of something bad.

James Is Back said:

The verse does not say anything of Jesus departing anywhere it says depart from me. The question was depart from me where? Or where does Jesus tell those where to depart to?

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OK, I'll try to spell it out... MY PRESENCE. Do you understand the difference between relationship and fellowship? The prodigal son was still a son even though he'd left the presence of his father. When he returned his father went so far as to say "This my son who was DEAD is ALIVE again. So James, what was 'dead', their relationship, or their fellowship?

God "...will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (I Timothy 2:4).

That's pretty tough to believe, isn't it.
And the original Greek doesn't say God merely "hopes" to save all, it says He is "willing" to save all, meaning God is ready, eager, and prepared to do this! Not at all reluctant! This fact is born out in Isaiah 53:10, for a great many translations tell us that God "was pleased" to sacrifice His son for us all.

"All" would include all young children who have ever lived, all the mentally deficient, all the insane who have ever lived, all of the billions of people who, not knowing God, have worshipped false gods, and "all" would even include those who have led extremely wicked lives. So are all of these multiple billions of His creation actually going to learn the truth and be saved as God claims?

In most people's minds that's indeed very hard to believe -- even for most professing Christians. But as the evangelist Paul Finkenbinder (aka, Hermano Pablo) stated many years ago:

"Pessimism is sin."

For proof of this he gave the example of how the Israelites who had been sent to spy out the Promised Land, came back with a very gloomy, pessimistic report. You can read of this in Numbers 13:25-33. Basically, their message was that the land promised by God was impossible to take because of its "strong" defenders and "very great" walled cities. What God had promised them, they considered unachievable and absolutely impossible to obtain! To them there was NO WAY that Israel could enter and take the land that God had promised them!

But this lack of faith in God's promise had very serious repercussions, even more serious than their constant complaining after leaving Egypt, and even more serious than their idolatrous worshiping of their molten calf! The Bible clearly states that it was this lack of faith, this unbelief -- and the unbelief of those who heard their message -- that resulted in God (in the Person of Christ) not granting to them entrance into this Promised Land (Hebrews 3:18-19; 4:6,11). Today, in much the same negative vein, we hear religious leaders and Bible teachers claim that God is incapable of bringing us all into the Promised Land. And like the reasoning of old, it's usually based upon a faulty premise that we cannot count on God to do it all, so it's up to us.

Some even claim that God has no desire to save everyone, or that He is hampered by man's supposed "free will" and needs "our permission" to save us! The result is the same. The pessimism and unbelief that existed amongst God's people in ancient Israel, is prevalent today throughout the modern churches, churches composed of people who likewise claim the 'Promised Land' -- be it heaven or a New Earth -- will not be attainable for most people!
The truth is that if we want God to save us in this life, then we need to trust in Him, have faith in Him, rely upon Him, and most of all -- love and BELIEVE Him. Our salvation (in this life) is dependent upon it.

brixken7 said:

God "...will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (I Timothy 2:4).

That's pretty tough to believe, isn't it.
And the original Greek doesn't say God merely "hopes" to save all, it says He is "willing" to save all, meaning God is ready, eager, and prepared to do this! Not at all reluctant! This fact is born out in Isaiah 53:10, for a great many translations tell us that God "was pleased" to sacrifice His son for us all.

"All" would include all young children who have ever lived, all the mentally deficient, all the insane who have ever lived, all of the billions of people who, not knowing God, have worshipped false gods, and "all" would even include those who have led extremely wicked lives. So are all of these multiple billions of His creation actually going to learn the truth and be saved as God claims? . . .

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Unfortunately I Timothy 2:4 is not the only verse in the Bible. Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, not just an elect, predestined, chosen, few, was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.

This passage very much speaks to the issue of God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”


Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

I hope that all may be saved, though I do not expect all to be saved for Christ said in Matthew 7:13-14, “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few." It's quite clear that God set the standard really high.

Take rest that all will be saved ranes1. The Bible is a spiritual book that contains literal and metaphoric meaning. Notice in the post before yours how Der Alter brushed off 1Tim 2:4 as "...not the only verse in the Bible", a comment that has no valid meaning in a discussion about the truth of a matter. The champions of harsh literalism show in comments like this their close-mindedness. Instead of attempting to put the pieces of the Biblical puzzle together by trying to understand how literal and metaphoric verses work together--which they must, if an honest pursuit of truth is in view--they cast off the verses that throw doubt on their doctrine and embrace only those that support it. This is the way of the Pharisee, who was not interested in truth but in maintaining his control over what God's word is allowed to say.

The literalist will pound you with his literalism, picking out verses which tell of God's displeasure with sinners, as for example in DA's presentation: "Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them." See how the literalist pounds, using bold and caps to "shout" his certainty at us?

The way to truth lies not in beating others with one's harsh literalism but in understanding the simple structure of metaphor: particular things (acts, persons, etc.) in certain situations (historic and moral, in the Bible's case) are symbols, they correspond to higher, spiritual ideas and principles. Once understood, read the spiritual Bible with the understanding that the more tensions you are able to overcome, the more truth you have in what God is saying in the Bible. Don't throw away verses that seem not to agree as many literalists do; study them out. Patterns should emerge by which combining certain literal meanings with certain metaphoric ones will solve logical interpretive problems.

For example, I see that God often uses persons as players on a stage of correspondence to reveal deeper truths. Take the notion of the soul as a value-fragmented whole made up of many parts, many parts are true but some false, which stain the soul and provide dispositions toward sin. A good analogy is the body as a mass of cells, some healthy, some cancerous...the physical body is thus stained with sickness depriving it of the perfection of health. Just so man's spirit, and this structure is embedded throughout both Testaments of the Bible if you'll study it out. Now pay close attention to what God is saying in the Bible. There are many verses referring to separation of good from bad, the good figs from the rotten in Jer 24, a cutting off of righteous and wicked in Ezek 21:3-5, a separation of sheep and goats (Mat 25) and wheat from tares (Mat 13).

The literal can only see wrath against that class of individuals called sinners and unsaved. But when you understand that God is using both good and bad in humans as a metaphoric representation of an inner, spiritual condition in every human soul, you will see how the salvation of all works...by God waging war not against persons, but against those elements of falsity within every soul which cause sin. Thus, grace trumps wrath. The logical problem (tension) of an angry God who separates millions of souls from Him for eternity is resolved in the understanding that His plan from the beginning was to save or repair sick souls, not condemn them to an insane torture for all eternity.

ranes1 said:

I hope that all may be saved, though I do not expect all to be saved for Christ said in Matthew 7:13-14, “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few." It's quite clear that God set the standard really high.

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Those who find it may be few, but it will be interesting to see how
many are those it finds. (Luke 15:1-7)

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When you come to understand that it is what's in the Soul of man/carnal nature/old man, that the wrath of God/judgement of God is upon, so that the new man can come forth...UnvRec. becomes very clear. All will have to go through this.
It is a pouring out of the Soul/old nature...so that The New can come forth.
The old man/firstborn must die.....in order to live.

That means all images, thoughts, teachings, principles etc...that we have taken part of all our lives must go, and this comes by the Redemptive work of The Christ. As we pour out one soul/life He supplies us with His New.

It is Soul for Soul....Life for Life

chaela said:

Those who find it may be few, but it will be interesting to see how
many are those it finds. (Luke 15:1-7)

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I call the metaphoric standard of interpretation a "standard" because it's able to provide a consistent reading of the Bible with respect to salvation. The same principle of interpretation that moves sheep and goats, wheat and tares, good figs and bad from representing individual people to elements within every human soul also applies to Luke 15:1-7. The work of destruction (and accompanying rebuilding) of the human soul is the subject in view, not the condemnation of whole persons. In other words, we have more stuff in our souls (and create a lot more in the course of life with bad choices) that has to be torn down and rebuilt before we can enter God's presence than stuff able to endure the roaring fire of His pure Truth, His essence. We have a lot of false elements in us that have to be remade to a true state so we can exist in the presence of Truth Himself without fear of being burned up.

So, both the doctrines of eternal punishment and annihilationism are correct when moved from literal to allegorical. There are parts of the soul that have to be annihilated in wrath...but they are rebuilt and restored by grace. There are parts of the soul that are subject to eternal hell--because 'hell' is regeneration which destroys the false in God's restorative work in the human soul. Eternality applies not to the duration a soul spends in punishment, it applies to the duration God's pure Truth essence will be at enmity with the falsity that stains every soul. Once the false components are destroyed and the soul rebuilt, enmity ceases. We become all in all (true essence of the soul in union with True essence of God) and exist in His presence in a restored, perfect state.

If the interpretive conventions mentioned above were subjective, pulled out of the mind to explain a 'standalone' idea, the literalist would be correct to condemn such notions as imaginary. The interpretive principles suggested here can be coherently applied to passages throughout both Testaments of the Bible. Thus, the interpretive system presented here rests completely on the understanding that God is the author of Scripture. While this can be seen secondarily and literally but not fully in the authors' understandings, God's authorship can only be observed with clarity by His startling orchestration of a consistent, distinctive pattern of salvation through multiple authors over many centuries in a common allegoric structure using a variety of metaphors in dozens of passages from both Testaments of the Bible, all fitting this same structure.

Thus, the allegorical doctrine is the only one that truly holds God as the author of the Bible. The champions of grammatical-historical literalism claim to believe in an inspired Bible, but their doctrine in reality places a manmade stranglehold on what they allow God to say in His word.

2KnowHim said:

When you come to understand that it is what's in the Soul of man/carnal nature/old man, that the wrath of God/judgement of God is upon, so that the new man can come forth...UnvRec. becomes very clear. All will have to go through this. It is a pouring out of the Soul/old nature...so that The New can come forth. The old man/firstborn must die.....in order to live. That means all images, thoughts, teachings, principles etc...that we have taken part of all our lives must go, and this comes by the Redemptive work of The Christ. As we pour out one soul/life He supplies us with His New. It is Soul for Soul....Life for Life

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Correct me if I'm wrong, 2KnowHim, but I think that in your above post you're making reference to the fact that all of us in this life must suffer to enter God's Family (and most people in the next life as well). However, the suffering, pain and humiliation we all must endure is for a very good reason, which is plainly stated in the better translations of Ecclesiastes 1:13 and 3:10:

"It is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it" (Concordant version; see also the 1599 Geneva Bible).

We all must be humbled and learn humility for we are all born, it seems, with a proud nature. It's an intrinsic part of our carnal human nature. And those of us who believe that they are in some way responsible for their salvation -- through their supposed free will -- they too have a real problem with a lack of humility. But God ultimately will not allow anyone to boast in their salvation (Romans 3:27; I Corinthians 1:29). And the hellfire enthusiasts are quite wrong in thinking that God is unable to humble EVERYONE, for "all walking in pride He can abase" (Daniel 4:37)....even them! Indeed, as Christ said, everyone exalting himself shall be humbled (Matthew 23:12; Luke 18:14), which is through affliction and humiliation.

I couldn't agree more Brixken, there is only ONE who humbled Himself and without Him it is impossible.
I would also like to point out...Phil. 3:10
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
To me this is what it's all about....To KNOW Him...Which Jesus said is Life Eternal...
We are sharers/Partakers of His Life...

There is no Greater Love than one lay down His life for another.

BukiRob said:

This idea ignores scripture. It is the same lie the serpent sold Eve.... Hath Gd said?

Gd is clear if man disobeyed he would die... mankind has been batting 100% every person who has been born will or has died.

Revelation warns of the SECOND DEATH. Those whose names were not found in the lambs book of life were cast into the lake of Fire where they experience the second death. That which is dead has no life... you cease to be alive. When you are dead you are aware of nothing, think nothing and feel nothing.

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The lake of fire passages, in context.



And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.



The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “he lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.

We also know that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.

Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere but there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.


The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.

Der Alter said:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

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The original Greek of Rev. 20:10 does not read "are," which is why it is often found in italics. It's an ellipsis.

Secondly, the original Greek (e.g., the Concordant Greek Text) reads "also" (see American Standard Version, New American Standard Bible, Lexham English Bible, World English Bible, Common English Bible).

Thus a proper rendering of this verse is "The devil who deceived them was thrown into the fiery lake of sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet were also thrown" (Names of God Bible).

Actually, no one is consciously tormented in the Lake of Fire. In fact, this verse cannot even be used to prove that Satan is tormented in the Lake. It only says "they" (Satan and the demons) "will be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." It doesn't actually say where or how. Let's not add to God's Word.

The second death is actually good news. As it is written "whoever has died has been set free from sin" Romans 6:7
.
it is called a second death because as the word for fire "pur" implies, it is a lake of purification, removing all things that cause harm to self and others, so the new creation is enjoyed by all.

Michael Collum said:

The second death is actually good news. As it is written "whoever has died has been set free from sin" Romans 6:7
.
it is called a second death because as the word for fire "pur" implies, it is a lake of purification, removing all things that cause harm to self and others, so the new creation is enjoyed by all.

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Exactly. One can argue through eternity from a literal understanding of the Bible and never reach this truth. Hell is a metaphor for regeneration. As with all metaphors, this doesn't dismiss a literal application, it merely moves it to a more accurate spiritual venue. Sinners are "punished" with hellfire regeneration which destroys (annihilates) that stain within the soul that causes sin. Those who don't conform to gradual hellfire regeneration in time (sanctification) to be remade into a state of faith meet God in a sin state (Jn 8:24) with no imputed righteousness of Christ to save them from. These undergo their final cleansing in His pure Truth essence, where God will not have mercy but will wage war against the falseness in the stubborn soul that resists to physical death. As Michael Collum correctly states, this second death is good news, as terrible as it may be, because it destroys that which prevents the soul from union with God.

The most powerful truths of Scripture are in its metaphors. Jesus taught exclusively in figurative language for a reason, the prophets prophecied in figurative language for a reason....and the reason is not to come to an understanding of God's plan, nature and grace by forcing only literal meaning on a spiritual--and allegorical--book.

dumpsterdiver45 said:

Exactly.
The most powerful truths of Scripture are in its metaphors. Jesus taught exclusively in figurative language for a reason, the prophets prophecied in figurative language for a reason....and the reason is not to come to an understanding of God's plan, nature and grace by forcing only literal meaning on a spiritual--and allegorical--book.

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Yes, and it probably goes back, ultimately, to the fact that God loves to hide things (Proverbs 25:2).

Am sure the news that everyone will eventually make it regardless of how they live this life would be a great comfort to many. Wonder why that message is not emphasized in the NT as that would indeed be Good News for everyone to hear. Why hide such a wonderful message?

brixken7 said:

...Secondly, the original Greek (e.g., the Concordant Greek Text) reads "also" (see American Standard Version, New American Standard Bible, Lexham English Bible, World English Bible, Common English Bible).

Thus a proper rendering of this verse is "The devil who deceived them was thrown into the fiery lake of sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet were also thrown" (Names of God Bible)...

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Here is the original Greek of Rev 20:10 note your Concordant Greek text is wrong the word "also" does not occur in this verse.