Universal reconciliation

[DrBubbaLove]

And when we put someone away for life, or more rare death, what is the purpose of that punishment?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Now 'that's a point every UR and annihilationist would heartily agree with.

Not so sure about the Just part, clearly we all agree He is Love.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

God and those in Glory don't see people "eternally suffering". That's my point.

I get that was your point (that in your view no one is left suffering) but this whole train of thought began with someone else's lamenting about how sad it would be for God & those in Glory to know that people were suffering. My reply to that is still that if the existence of suffering were really an issue for God's Happiness (or those in Glory) then it would be an issue right now.

Suffering has its purpose...OT and NT. Eternal suffering has no purpose....it's eternal suffering. Can you see what I'm saying? There's no correction, there's no end, there's no purpose and that simply has the earmarks of pure sadism IMO. And my view of God is not, as a sadist.

The problem here is that not all punishment is meant to be "corrective" and it is sometimes Just, even now to separate individuals from the rest of society - even permanently. We also see such punishments in the OT, even administered by God Himself. So I do not agree that a Just God administering punishment is limited to a category some call "positive" or "corrective".

Well God didn't, make that distinction, poor translations did. Read my quoted translations above. They simply won't support orthodoxy and what you're saying IMO.

Hmmm, people much closer to the original text than us had these same discussions and I do not recall any part of that discussion focusing on whether the translation was good or bad. Wonder why?

Then you fail your own litmus of 'duality' that you mentioned earlier. Didn't you say "How can 'they' in heaven not be happy with suffering innocent here and now and not be happy in the hereafter." Now you want me to say I can't be happy to punish my children now knowing 'that' correction will be for their betterment in the future.

The confusion comes from combining two issues/points. Whether or not God and those in Glory with Him can be Happy even with the knowledge of suffering (whether now or after Judgement) and two whether God or people should be "happy" to punishment another. From my view the first issue is addressed by acknowledging that God is and has been eternally Happy, as would be those in Glory with Him right now (though how He provides that Grace to them if they are "aware" of suffering I have no clue-just know they are Happy) and that Happiness is independent of anything else. It is, just like "Good is" and "Love is"...etc. The second issue to me would approach my understanding of a sadist (I did not choose that analogy), taking pleasure/happiness in inflicting punishment on others. Which am very certain is not what you meant.

They do so when they change "worthy of destruction" and "non existance" into eternal purposeless torture...IMO.

Again and as Saint Thomas explained almost a millennium ago- taking some liberty with his points in my feeble attempt to convey and shorten it: both capital punishments and life sentences serve purposes. One would be to show the community at large that there is Justice, another would be safety and the joy that brings the community. In the case of those in Glory in the next life, (the Saint quoting Pope Gregory from the 5th century) another purpose would be the Joy in knowing what they escaped by God's Grace and how they overcame the evils they see being eternally punished.

Separation does sound better than eternal torture for sure...but separation isn't the point...it's a side step to not face the truth IMO.

Not a side step at all. The point was made that there is no purpose for the damned being in eternal torment. Having them separate from the "living" is indeed a purpose, just as much a purpose in eternity as a capital or life sentence punishment serves in this life.

Hmmm and yet we have the "second death" of Revelation as well as the Great white throne of God AND the Bema judgment seat of Christ. One of which "saves yet though as by fire."

Correct and for most Christians, the first death did not end our existence and neither does the second, which as it says that 2nd death effects not only a body but also the soul of the damned. It is exactly that effect I alluded to earlier and that CS Lewis (many others too) speculate on. THey would still exist but be unrecognizable as humans. Much like I would assume fallen angels no longer resemble their former selves.

And actually the corruption caused to one's self by rebelling (sin) against one's own nature (to love and serve the Supreme Good) - that corruption starts in this life and in the case of the damned (and fallen angels when they rebelled) is allowed to be completed in the next - and that corruption would have to change such a person/being.

The logical conclusion/point it shows is this. Origen was one of those early writers too. And his logical conclusion was opposite of your unnamed writer who obviously didn't know what I've already explained above. I give thanks to other earlier writers, as well as more modern ones who've studied the 'earlier' writers more than I, for the conclusions I now hold to.

What Origen did or did not believe apparently changed over his lifetime and he wrote much about this; some of which became legend and is probably obscured (maybe even exaggerated) by that over time by his followers (and opponents). But my point was not only did he speculate on the end to eternal punishment but he also speculated on an end to the "age" for those in Glory as well - which given the translations they used at that time (and many of us have translations in agreement with those) that end to being "in Glory" was a logical conclusion to having Hell end and the damned redeemed.

 

[Hillsage]

Not so sure about the Just part, clearly we all agree He is Love.

You might not be sure but I can say I'm sure. We certainly aren't ignorant of the justice of God. We just think the eternal torture view is not the correct one.

 

[Hillsage]

I get that was your point (that in your view no one is left suffering) but this whole train of thought began with someone else's lamenting about how sad it would be for God & those in Glory to know that people were suffering. My reply to that is still that if the existence of suffering were really an issue for God's Happiness (or those in Glory) then it would be an issue right now.

I'd agree with that statement.

Hmmm, people much closer to the original text than us had these same discussions and I do not recall any part of that discussion focusing on whether the translation was good or bad. Wonder why?

You've made a very good point. WHY would they be discussing this if their translations all said ETERNAL DAMNATION, ETERNAL JUDGMENT, ETERNAL FIRE. I'd say the point is their translations didn't say that. Today's do, and that doesn't mean they're right, based upon your very own observation.

The second issue to me would approach my understanding of a sadist (I did not choose that analogy), taking pleasure/happiness in inflicting punishment on others. Which am very certain is not what you meant.

You are right, I just went and looked up the definition, and I don't believe God derives pleasure from our pain. Sadist has truly been the wrong word for me to use. I need to find a word just as ugly though to replace it. Any suggestions? I thought not.

The point was made that there is no purpose for the damned being in eternal torment. Having them separate from the "living" is indeed a purpose, just as much a purpose in eternity as a capital or life sentence punishment serves in this life.

I follow their logic concerning temporal judgment, I just don't agree with it/them.

Correct and for most Christians, the first death did not end our existence and neither does the second, which as it says that 2nd death effects not only a body but also the soul of the damned. It is exactly that effect I alluded to earlier and that CS Lewis (many others too) speculate on. THey would still exist but be unrecognizable as humans. Much like I would assume fallen angels no longer resemble their former selves.

But the last enemy to be destroyed IS DEATH. And when Jesus died death was destroyed because the Spirit or spirit (depends on trans) quickened/made alive again.

And actually the corruption caused to one's self by rebelling (sin) against one's own nature

A nature given to us by who? I didn't ask for the sin nature.

ROM 11:32 For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

An old sage once said; "There is no 'doer', but God." And how true it is that his judgments are unsearchable...today's discussion proves that.
Gotta quit DrB. Nite.

 

[richard373]

<Staff Edit>

&#8230;.And Scripture affirms as such: "Love is from God and everyone who loves is a child of God and knows God. Whoever fails to love is not of God because God is love. (1Jn4:7b,8)".

&#8220;Ho theos agape estin&#8221;: an extraordinary statement &#8211; nowhere do we read that &#8220;God is wrath&#8221; or &#8220;God is justice&#8221;; compassionate love is His defining quality; His very essence according to John. As you say, these other qualities flow from that love, I would say are essential to it. As with parents towards their children punishment is often an act of love but I don't think we can say that God&#8217;s punishment will exclusively be &#8220;corrective&#8221; in the sense of being entirely for the recipient&#8217;s benefit, there is undoubtedly to be a punitive/judicial element if Scripture is to be believed. A good deal of emphasis is placed on God promising to avenge injustices towards His people, indeed towards all the neglected and oppressed of the world (Mt25); and clearly such retributive justice is not always accomplished in the perpetrators&#8217; lifetime.
But this is still in accordance with a loving and just principle, whereas the eternal tormenting and banishment of all who have missed the mark of God&#8217;s ideal standards and have not availed themselves of the gospel (i.e. from God&#8217;s perspective were not chosen to be assembled into what Scripture describes as the royal priesthood of God &#8211; 1Pet2:9) &#8211; now that would be an outcome inconsistent with love as Scripture itself defines it (1Cor13:4-8). Nor is this mere human reasoning - the opening verse I quoted from John's epistle affirms that the love that God's people experience and understand is from God; divine love is superior but not different in nature and outworking from human love, as some theologians in the past have tried to make out to support their harsh and narrow perspective on God's purposes for the world - a world that He loves and seeks to reconcile to Himself through a knowledge of His Son and through the people who have become His mystical body on earth (Eph5:30).

 

[Der Alte]

….….And Scripture affirms as such: "Love is from God and everyone who loves is a child of God and knows God. Whoever fails to love is not of God because God is love. (1Jn4:7b,8)".

“Ho theos agape estin”: an extraordinary statement – nowhere do we read that “God is wrath” or “God is justice”; compassionate love is His defining quality; His very essence according to John. As you say, these other qualities flow from that love, I would say are essential to it. As with parents towards their children punishment is often an act of love but I don't think we can say that God’s punishment will exclusively be “corrective” in the sense of being entirely for the recipient’s benefit, there is undoubtedly to be a punitive/judicial element if Scripture is to be believed. A good deal of emphasis is placed on God promising to avenge injustices towards His people, indeed towards all the neglected and oppressed of the world (Mt25); and clearly such retributive justice is not always accomplished in the perpetrators’ lifetime.
But this is still in accordance with a loving and just principle, whereas the eternal tormenting and banishment of all who have missed the mark of God’s ideal standards and have not availed themselves of the gospel (i.e. from God’s perspective were not chosen to be assembled into what Scripture describes as the royal priesthood of God – 1Pet2:9) – now that would be an outcome inconsistent with love as Scripture itself defines it (1Cor13:4-8). Nor is this mere human reasoning - the opening verse I quoted from John's epistle affirms that the love that God's people experience and understand is from God; divine love is superior but not different in nature and outworking from human love, as some theologians in the past have tried to make out to support their harsh and narrow perspective on God's purposes for the world - a world that He loves and seeks to reconcile to Himself through a knowledge of His Son and through the people who have become His mystical body on earth (Eph5:30).

Based on historical evidence presented below the Hell:No! view being espoused in this forum is false.

The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels and if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died, young, old, good, bad, and knew that it was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.

Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.

Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992

Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”

(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)

G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:

“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
.
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism - Bible Truth Discussion Forum​

 

[James Is Back]

Sorry Hillsage you're not convincing me for UR and I think you're taking passages out of context. So once again let's try this:

Matthew 25:41(NKJV)-Then He will also say to those on the left hand, &#8216;Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels

So how do you explain that verse? Depart from me where? Why did Jesus say this?

By the way I'm not asking for my benefit but want a UR believer to explain these warning passages to me.

 

[Hillsage]

Sorry Hillsage you're not convincing me for UR and I think you're taking passages out of context.

It's not my job to 'convince' you, it's the Holy Spirit's job. And if you look at my last post I answered 'your verse' with a UR perspective from three different translations.

So once again let's try this:

No, I think you need to finish by responding to my answer to your last post. Then moving on might be of more value to you.

By the way I'm not asking for my benefit but want a UR believer to explain these warning passages to me.

And that is relevant because...why?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

You might not be sure but I can say I'm sure. We certainly aren't ignorant of the justice of God. We just think the eternal torture view is not the correct one.

But that is my point as there would not be Justice without it.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I'd agree with that statement.

You've made a very good point. WHY would they be discussing this if their translations all said ETERNAL DAMNATION, ETERNAL JUDGMENT, ETERNAL FIRE. I'd say the point is their translations didn't say that. Today's do, and that doesn't mean they're right, based upon your very own observation.

The point would be the Bible translations orthodox use today can be traced to those in existence when these debates occurred and yet not a single case was made then (as is being done here and ONLY in the last few hundred years) that the issue would be settled if only the translation was correct. Clever dodge though.

I follow their logic concerning temporal judgment, I just don't agree with it/them.

Am not sure what one is following. Either capital punishment/life sentences serve a purpose or they do not. I say they do - am not sure what you are saying.

But the last enemy to be destroyed IS DEATH. And when Jesus died death was destroyed because the Spirit or spirit (depends on trans) quickened/made alive again.

We still die. What is destroyed is the victory possible over that death in a potential resurrection to Glory verses the sad state of all mankind (prior to the Cross) facing that same death.

A nature given to us by who? I didn't ask for the sin nature.

All properly catechized folks would say we are all made in His Image, and our nature/purpose for existing is to love and serve the Supreme Good. The corruption of that nature by The Original Sin creates a tendency in all of us for rebellion against our nature (which we call sinning) - I would not call that tendency a sin nature - just a tendency - IOW we are inclined to sin. And it is only by His Grace that we can overcome that (in this life and the next).

good nite

 

[Norah63]

In my head I may not understand how the US is going to be completed, but in my heart I feel the tug, to hope that all who have not known salvation, will at some point in eternity recieve.
Sin and all it brings, is of no use in any eternity. Yet if there is a place for it, may it be forever bound their.

 

[Hillsage]

But that is my point as there would not be Justice without it.

You just aren't getting it. We both believe in the justice of God. You just believe eternal torture in a burning hell is justice, we don't. There is nothing just about that.

 

[drstevej]

Check this out:

The Justice of God in the Damnation of Sinners -- Jonathan Edwards
​

​

 

[Hillsage]

The point would be the Bible translations orthodox use today can be traced to those in existence when these debates occurred and yet not a single case was made then (as is being done here and ONLY in the last few hundred years) that the issue would be settled if only the translation was correct. Clever dodge though.

Maybe a clever dodge, maybe spiritual insight. You act like the church of the first 1500 years walked on water instead of loosing all Spirit power and morphing into a religious/political institution which killed anyone who disagreed with them, as well as trying to destroy absolutely everything written contrary to their Dante's inferno belief system. No offense intended to my RC brethren, but I don't idolize any "Chrisitan" institution/structure....WE are the church.

Am not sure what one is following. Either capital punishment/life sentences serve a purpose or they do not. I say they do - am not sure what you are saying.

I am saying the judgments of man based upon the biblical examples, primarily the OT are temporal judgments and serve a temporal purpose. So how is that purpose working? NOT!

"God's judgments are unsearchable" and I believe His infinity judgments will best serve the creation he created and LOVES for infinity hereafter. If such is not the case then I believe the omniscient God of the universe came up with a poor plan to save. A plan which was spoiled by an inferior created adversary thereby forcing God to do despicable endless torture to the majority of the people He loves. I'm not God, but since getting UN-cathecized I believe I now know God better, and 'better enough' to know 'that' stinks.

We still die. What is destroyed is the victory possible over that death in a potential resurrection to Glory verses the sad state of all mankind (prior to the Cross) facing that same death.

Not scriptural IMO.

All properly catechized folks would say we are all made in His Image, and our nature/purpose for existing is to love and serve the Supreme Good.

Properly catechized folks are indoctrinated into their denominations doctrinal box IMO. I once was, and now I'm not. I was born, baptized, raised, wed and divorced as a Roman Catholic...I understand catechism. I also know I was never born again in those 22 years, but if I'd died I'd have heard what I hear at every catholic funeral; "Because I was infant baptized into the Church" I'm saved. Please tell me that's not what you believe.

Though properly catechized I wasn't born again, Spirit baptized or tongue talking. But after being so, I started studying all my catechized beliefs, and several fell.

The corruption of that nature by The Original Sin creates a tendency in all of us for rebellion against our nature (which we call sinning)

True, but even unbelievers can overcome that nature;

ROM 2:14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

I would not call that tendency a sin nature - just a tendency - IOW we are inclined to sin. And it is only by His Grace that we can overcome that (in this life and the next).

Now that is the truth. And what did you do to earn that Grace? Nothing, Jesus earned it. And it will be appropriated to all in due time.

1CO 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

When Christ comes to each, in their order then shall come to pass;

1CO 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

If eternal torture was the price for sin....Jesus never paid it.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

You just aren't getting it. We both believe in the justice of God. You just believe eternal torture in a burning hell is justice, we don't. There is nothing just about that.

So then one must be claiming there is nothing just about capital punishments or life sentences - which has been my point. I think capital punishments and life sentences can be Just and as such absolutely have purpose.

The sentiment being expressed here is that only punishments that are 'corrective' are Just and have purpose. Am just pointing out that sentiment, while sweet and sincere, is wrong.

 

[drstevej]

Capital punishment eliminates recidivism.

 

[Hillsage]

So then one must be claiming there is nothing just about capital punishments or life sentences - which has been my point.

No, I think they are just and I am pro capital punishment, and I'm actually not so much pro, life sentences. Probably because I have hope for dead in the hereafter. Life sentences are just delaying death and not prolonging life IMO.

I think capital punishments and life sentences can be Just and as such absolutely have purpose.

I agree...temporal purpose. Eternal torture is not just, and eternal punishing, accomplishes nothing fitting the definition of punishment.

The sentiment being expressed here is that only punishments that are 'corrective' are Just and have purpose. Am just pointing out that sentiment, while sweet and sincere, is wrong.

I disagree. Here, we have fallible men making unjust decisions. Sending innocent men to death and imprisonment. God is not fallible and his judgments will be for the betterment of all, as well as to his glory.

Why 'to His glory'? One reason might be because He will not hold us to a higher standard than God Himself will not keep.

Matthew 6:15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

 

[James Is Back]

No, I think you need to finish by responding to my answer to your last post. Then moving on might be of more value to you.

I did and I told you that it didn't convince me. I'll give you credit though you did a good job of providing your end but still didn't convince me that UR is true.

Now do you want to respond to the verse in my last post?

 

[Hillsage]

Capital punishment eliminates recidivism.

Not even a wink to indicate some semblance of compassion?

Having spent two years in jail ministry your comment simply make me feel a sickness of heart.