Universal Reconciliation

[ZoneChaos]

So, if they have not accepted Christ as their savior,and they die, how is one then saved by grace through faith, after death?

 

[G4m]

So, if they have not accepted Christ as their savior,and they die, how is one then saved by grace through faith, after death?

Abraham, knew God (he walked with Him), yet still he had faith. Why would this change when we die?

Genesis 48
15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,

Hebrews 11
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

James 2
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

 

[john14_20]

So, if they have not accepted Christ as their savior,and they die, how is one then saved by grace through faith, after death?

The same way as one is saved by grace through faith before death!

Why must anything change after death????

 

[ZoneChaos]

The same way as one is saved by grace through faith before death!

Why must anything change after death????

But is is not the same at all.

Faith on earth is needed becasue we are subjecy to ignorance..

We can only know God through Faith in HIM, on earth. After we die, the knowledge becomes real, and Faith in no longer need. it is rteplaced with true first hand knowldge of God. SOo salvation can no longer be by faith, because faith is no longer required ot know God.

 

[john14_20]

But is is not the same at all.

Faith on earth is needed becasue we are subjecy to ignorance..

We can only know God through Faith in HIM, on earth. After we die, the knowledge becomes real, and Faith in no longer need. it is rteplaced with true first hand knowldge of God. SOo salvation can no longer be by faith, because faith is no longer required ot know God.

I think you misunderstand faith.

Jesus is God. If you have seen Him you have seen the Father.

Yet even the disciples needed faith.

Nobody needs faith that God exists. But we all need faith that the God who exists in fact loves us and wants to be with us, and us with Him.

This does not change after we die.

 

[G4m]

But is is not the same at all.

Faith on earth is needed becasue we are subjecy to ignorance..

We can only know God through Faith in HIM, on earth. After we die, the knowledge becomes real, and Faith in no longer need. it is rteplaced with true first hand knowldge of God. SOo salvation can no longer be by faith, because faith is no longer required ot know God.

Abraham was God's friend, He knew Him and they walked together:

Genesis 48
15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
God promised Abraham things:

Genesis 50
24 And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

and God talked to Abraham and gave Him his name:

Genesis 17
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

they were friends:

James 2
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

So Abraham knew God, no more room for doubt that God was there. Yet:

Hebrews 11
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

 

[ZoneChaos]

Abraham was God's friend, He knew Him and they walked together:

Genesis 48
15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
God promised Abraham things:

Genesis 50
24 And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

and God talked to Abraham and gave Him his name:

Genesis 17
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

they were friends:

James 2
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

So Abraham knew God, no more room for doubt that God was there.

All this, by Faith.. I understand this, I agree with it, it supports what I stated.

Yet:

Hebrews 11
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

And again, you quote a scripture that does not show anything about Faith after death...

I agree with your post 100%, but I disagree that we can be saved through grace by Faith after we have died on earth...

 

[ZoneChaos]

But we all need faith that the God who exists in fact loves us and wants to be with us, and us with Him.

This does not change after we die.

Let me ask then, why do we need Faith that He does in fact Love us and wants to be with us? Why is faith needed?

 

[ZoneChaos]

Heb 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

No second chances after death... You die, then you are judged.

In the parable of the rich man, found in Luke 16:19-31, the rich man was taken to hell, and was not allowed into heaven, even after knowing the truth of who God is... where was his salvation?

Heb 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Faith is excercised while here on earth. Faith is of things hoped for, and of things not seen, which will be seen and no,longer needed to ne hoped fr once we die. After we die, we come face to face with God

I Cor. 13 "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away....For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

Faith will no longer be excercised after we die. What we only know part of now, we will know all of now. The things hoped for and the things unseen will become known and seen. When we die, we will come face to face with God, and the things of God which we needed Faith know while alaive, we will know, just as He knows us now. God doe snot need Faith to know us, and after we come face to face with Him, we will not need Faith to know Him.

So.. where then do we find in scripture that states there is a second chance after death for salvation? And, how is this salvation brought about? Does it then become a salvation of works?

Look at John 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

This verse paints a picture of someone who will not see life if they do not believe. Why would this verse even exist, and why Would Jesus say it if the possibility was not there that some would fail to believe and not be granted the eternal life mentioned in teh verse? If everyone will eventually believe, then the verse is null.

 

[G4m]

All this, by Faith.. I understand this, I agree with it, it supports what I stated.

And again, you quote a scripture that does not show anything about Faith after death...

I agree with your post 100%, but I disagree that we can be saved through grace by Faith after we have died on earth...

This is what you said earlier:

Faith on earth is needed becasue we are subjecy to ignorance..

We can only know God through Faith in HIM, on earth. After we die, the knowledge becomes real, and Faith in no longer need. it is rteplaced with true first hand knowldge of God. SOo salvation can no longer be by faith, because faith is no longer required ot know God.

Abraham had REAL knowledge of God before faith:

Genesis 48
15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,

Yet, he still had faith:

Hebrews 11
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

After we die, the knowledge becomes real, and Faith in no longer need. it is rteplaced with true first hand knowldge of God.

this is backwards...

 

[G4m]

Heb 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

No second chances after death... You die, then you are judged.

This is the backbone of God's salvation of all...

In the parable of the rich man, the rich man was taken to hell, and was not alolowed into hjeaven, even after knowing the truth of who God is... where was his salvation?

Matthew 5
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Heb 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Faith is excercised while here on earth. Faith is of things hoped for, and of things not seen, which will be seen and no,longer needed to ne hoped fr once we die. After we die, we come face to face with God

I Cor. 13 "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away....For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

Faith will no longer be excercised after we die. What we only know part of now, we will know all of now. The things hoped for and the things unseen will become known and seen. When we die, we will come face to face with God, and the things of God which we needed Faith know while alaive, we will know, just as He knows us now. God doe snot need Faith to know us, and after we come face to face with Him, we will not need Faith to know Him.

Why is knowing God after we die bad? Again it is the key! Again Abraham already knew God, they walked and talked together:

Genesis 48
15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,

[I'm sorry if I keep repeating scripture, just want to make sure we always keep context of what scripture we are discussing]

 

[G4m]

Let me ask then, why do we need Faith that He does in fact Love us and wants to be with us? Why is faith needed?

2 Timothy 2
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

 

[ZoneChaos]

2 Timothy 2
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

God cannot deny himself, but we can deny God.

Verse 12 says he will deny us if we deny Him. Verse 13 says that wether we believe in God or not, He will still deny us, we do not accept salvation. This verse is directed toward those who not only reject God, but reject the existacne of God. Wether you think God is real or not, He will still deny you, if you do not accept Him.

God is faithful to His Word. He is Faithful to His promises and to His threats. If we beleive in Him, we will be faithful to his promise of salvation, if we deny Him, He will be faithful to His judgement. He won't recede what He has already said.

If we deny Him, for whatever reason, He will deny and disown us, and will not deny Himself, but will continue faithful to His word when he threatens the same as He would when He promises.

 

[G4m]

This verse is directed toward those who not only reject God, but reject the existacne of God. Wether you think God is real or not, He will still deny you, if you do not accept Him.

But it would be hard to accept something you do not think is real. And why do people not think He is real in this life time. Again, another key...

And what if we accept the wrong god...

[EDIT: added]
Or what if we accept the "existance" of the wrong god...

 

[ZoneChaos]

But it would be hard to accept something you do not think is real.

I totally agree, and without Jesus Christ, it may well be impossible.God left Jesus Christ and His testimony for us, to lead us to God, through Christ. We can't know God, without going through Jesus Christ. Many poeple want proof of God, but they try to find it by skipping over the basics: Jesus Christ.

And why do people not think He is real in this life time. Again, another key...

Too many reason to list.. selfishness, greed, ignorance, stubborness, hate... the list goes on. For whatever reason man chooses to either accept of reject God.. and that choice is the only one that matters and probbaly the most important choice there is in life.

Also.. key to what?

And what if we accept the wrong god...

Then, by doing so, you deny the one true God.

 

[ZoneChaos]

Abraham had REAL knowledge of God before faith:

Genesis 48
15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,

I don't doubt he had real knowledge. I have real knowledge. I KNOW God is real, He talks to me. But my knowledge, like Abraham's came by Faith.

this is backwards...

How so? Are you saying that we know God fully while we live, and when we die, we cease to know God, and can only then know him by Faith?

 

[G4m]

I totally agree, and without Jesus Christ, it may well be impossible.God left Jesus Christ and His testimony for us, to lead us to God, through Christ. We can't know God, without going through Jesus Christ. Many poeple want proof of God, but they try to find it by skipping over the basics: Jesus Christ.

Why can't we know God without going through Christ? (I agree, but would like to know your thoughts)

Too many reason to list.. selfishness, greed, ignorance, stubborness, hate... the list goes on. For whatever reason man chooses to either accept of reject God..

Bingo! another key...

and that choice is the only one that matters and probbaly the most important choice there is in life.

Also.. key to what?

God's plan and salvation

Then, by doing so, you deny the one true God.

it follows that this means something else as well...

 

[ZoneChaos]

Why is knowing God after we die bad? Again it is the key! Again Abraham already knew God, they walked and talked together:

Never said it was bad.. it is most definately good. Where did I say it was bad?

[I'm sorry if I keep repeating scripture, just want to make sure we always keep context of what scripture we are discussing]

I understand this scripture. braham knew God. I get it. I know God. I do not know Him fully, there are still mysteries, and at one point in my life, I knew nothing of God. The same as Abraham. All knowledge of God, while on earth, comes by Faith.

 

[ZoneChaos]

Why can't we know God without going through Christ? (I agree, but would like to know your thoughts)

He is our mediator. Always has been. Even in the OT. Without Jesus, we have no connection to God due to our sinful nature... we need Jesus Christ, who is God and at the same time is man, to bridge the gap between us and God.

 

[G4m]

I don't doubt he had real knowledge. I have real knowledge. I KNOW God is real, He talks to me. But my knowledge, like Abraham's came by Faith.

God initiated contact with Abram directly:

Genesis 12
1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

How so? Are you saying that we know God fully while we live, and when we die, we cease to know God, and can only then know him by Faith?

No.