Universal Origins

[shernren]

One could make the logical assumptions as follows.

1. Everything that exists had a cause.
2. Everything that exists had a beginning.
3. Time exists and therefore had a beginning.
4. Time exists and therefore had a cause.
5. “Something” caused time but was before time.
6. This is one atribute that the Bible gives for God therefore God caused time but was before time.

Cause-and-effect relationships are temporal (causes always happen before effects).

Temporal relationships can only exist in time.
Therefore, time itself cannot be in temporal relationship with anything else.

Therefore, time is not caused.

Quite effectively disproved. (Be more careful with the idea of "caused", please.)

 

[duordi]

All of the statements I gave are repeatable and measureable therefore scientific.

Yours are not.

A cause need not be time dependent.

Take for an example the big Bang theory with universe inception.

What caused it.

It was not a product of our universe, time space ect.

Also light travels at the speed of light which requires the light partical/wave to experience zero time advancement.
Yet it causes and event on absoprbtion.

So from the coordinate system of the light partical/wave I have an event caused without a time duration. According to Einsteins theory all coordinate systems are equally valid.



Duordi

 

[duordi]

The scientific method of course.

It is measurable and repeatable.

Durodi

 

[Assyrian]

All of the statements I gave are repeatable and measureable therefore scientific.

You can repeat and measure causality before time?

 

[duordi]

The second example with the photon absorpion is constantly repeated testable and predictable.


Duordi

 

[Assyrian]

Sure I can.
The second example with the photon absorpion is constantly repeated testable and predictable.
Duordi

Sorry, I asked if you can repeat and measure causality before time.

 

[shernren]

A cause need not be time dependent.

Take for an example the big Bang theory with universe inception.

What caused it.

You are assuming your conclusion. Who said anything caused the Big Bang?

 

[mark kennedy]

You are assuming your conclusion. Who said anything caused the Big Bang?

There has to be a primary first cause, you get that right? In natural phenomenon there is a cause and effect, there most be a cause or it's a primary first cause.

 

[philadiddle]

There has to be a primary first cause, you get that right? In natural phenomenon there is a cause and effect, there most be a cause or it's a primary first cause.

Why does there have to be? natural phenomenon aren't really comparable to the beginning of a universe.

 

[duordi]

The photon has constant, zero time and exists in a two dimensional universe due to Lorentz contraction.

In short a photon exists outside of time.

"Outside of time" and "before time" is the same thing.

When the photon which is "outside of time" causes an event we have a cause from outside of time.

I use "outside of time" because to say before time suggests there was a time interval which would place it in time.

Durodi

 

[duordi]

You did not comment on the photon example.

Does that mean you accept it?

Duordi

 

[Assyrian]

The photon has constant, zero time and exists in a two dimensional universe due to Lorentz contraction.

In short a photon exists outside of time.

"Outside of time" and "before time" is the same thing.

When the photon which is "outside of time" causes an event we have a cause from outside of time.

I use "outside of time" because to say before time suggests there was a time interval which would place it in time.

Durodi

Is having zero time the same as being outside time? If you draw x y axes on a sheet of paper and pick the point where the axes meet, not just the thick pencil lines, but the very centre of each line, it is a mathematical point with zero length and zero height. Does that mean it is outside the page?

 

[shernren]

You did not comment on the photon example.

Does that mean you accept it?

Duordi

Good heavens, it means I had real life to attend to!

Suppose someone slaps me. The event itself is (perhaps literally) blindingly short. And yet it had a cause that preceded it, no matter how short it itself was. Even if an event has zero time duration, it still must have had a time: and it was caused by something before then.

(Or are you going to say, for consistency's sake, that since every single photon has zero time duration, every single photon was caused before time began?)

mark kennedy: Of course I believe the universe was created. But I also happen to believe that duordi's argument for the creation of the universe is naive and weak. Better he get things worked out here, among people who actually believe the same as him, than to have his faith mauled by atheists later.

 

[duordi]

It is my understanding that photons exist outside of time with respect to there own coordinate system.

Not that they just have zero time but that time is meaningless.

When the energy form changes to a force or some other form of energy then they do have time.

I will define the transition as part of the timed existence.

We can take the limits but at some point time starts and at the creation of a photon it ends for the photon with respect to itself.

PS. I am glad you have a life.


Duordi