Universal or Limited Atonement or somewhere in between

[mellymell]

Originally posted by Wonder
As in Adam all dies, so in Christ all is made alive!
Wheres the choice in here?
God's will will be done, it isn't our decision.
In His Love

You make it sound as if God's will is actually being done in the earth. Please, far far from that. It's not God's will that ANY should perish. It's not God's will that we have abortion, disease, poverty... But, since satan is called (by the Bible) the god of this world, it's his will that's being done, not God's. God's will is done when we pray and intreat Him, but He doesn't usurp the earthly authority that he's given to mankind (Gen. 1:26-27).

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

I've made a new deal with myself. I only discuss limited atonement with someone who already believes in the previous two points.

If that person doesn't, then it's quite futile to debate something so minute when we don't agree on the bigger issues that lead up to it.

 

[Wonder]

I don't see that people are discerning the difference between redemption and salvation.
In the OT the only one who could redeem someone was the closest kin. They could get the family member out sooner than their normal release in the yr. of jubilee. All recieved salvation...in the yr of jubilee...but only those who are redeemed recieves salvation sooner.
But we are all saved...some just sooner than others...each in their own time...

 

[eldermike]

I removed this discussion between a member and myself, it wasn't part of the topic.

Blessings to you all

 

[Elan]

Originally posted by Wonder
As in Adam all dies, so in Christ all is made alive!
Wheres the choice in here?
God's will will be done, it isn't our decision.
In His Love

  Wonder,

How did we get "in Adam"?  Did we have a choice? 

How did we get "in Christ"?  Did we have a choice?

Sometimes it's a bummer being "in Adam", BUT "in Christ" - that's not the case.  

 

Maranatha,     

 

[FineLinen]

Elan...Let's put it this way...

"For as by one man's disobedience polus were made sinners

SO

by the obedience of One shall polus be made righteous." Rom. 5:19

"For the creature was made subject to imperfection/decay/futility not willingly (not by choice), but by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope." Romans 8

Not willingly= ou hekon=

*** Not by choice

*** Not for some deliberate fault of their own.

*** Not of its own choice, but because of Him who made it so.

*** Not of its own will, but by reason of Him who subjected it.

 

[FineLinen]

MellyMell, the Hilasmos of the holos extends to the whole ungodly multitude, or the whole mass of men alienated from God.

In reference to "just accepting", lets take a quick look at the following....

"It is because of this also that God has so highly exalted Him, and has conferred on Him the name which is supreme above all other names.

In order that IN the name of Jesus (in adoration of the name of Jesus) every knee should bow, of beings in the highest heavens, of those on the earth, and of those in the underworld, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."

Confess= Exomologeo=

To celebrate/ give praise to.

To acknowledge openly and freely.

Exomologeo Rooted In Homologeo

Homologeo=

To confess/ declare openly and freely.

To profess one's self the worshipper of one.

To praise and celebrate.

 

[Elan]

Elan...Let's put it this way...

"For as by one man's disobedience polus were made sinners

SO

by the obedience of One shall polus be made righteous." Rom. 5:19

"For the creature was made subject to imperfection/decay/futility not willingly (not by choice), but by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope." Romans 8

Not willingly= ou hekon=

*** Not by choice

*** Not for some deliberate fault of their own.

*** Not of its own choice, but because of Him who made it so.

*** Not of its own will, but by reason of Him who subjected it.

 
FineLinen,

“Let’s put it this way” ….. ehhhhhh!   Personally I would have never, ever thought of putting it that way ….. but it flows quite nicely.  However, if you should elect to go speeding down the Greek road, I’ll wave to you while standing in your plume of dust .  Cough, cough, hack, cough!   Please, … no offence intended at your end, none taken at my end.

Rom 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man (the) many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of one man (the) many will be made righteous. quotations are mine

There is an understanding that polus is preceded by a definite article which would seem to dispel the idea that “the many” may actually mean some and not others.  The phrase “the many” is used so that one from among us (mankind) is excluded … the man Christ Jesus.  Soooo, the exact number of "the many" that were made sinners by one man, that exact number of "the many" will (eventually) be made righteous.  Hey, wait a minute, that means all of us!!!!

Some may say the Jesus Christ is not a man (anthropos) and therefore does not need to be excluded, but He is a man.  He is not to be counted among "the many", but is counted as one of mankind (a new creature),

1 Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human, 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, revealing God’s purpose at his appointed time.

    but that’s for another thread.

Rom 8:18 For I consider that our present sufferings cannot even be compared to the glory that will be revealed to us. 8:19 For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God. 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility—not willingly but because of God who subjected it—in hope 8:21 that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of decay into the glorious freedom of God’s children. 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers together until now. 8:23 Not only this, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies. 8:24 For in hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope, because who hopes for what he sees? 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with endurance.

It seems that on a level more base than faith, hope is the ingredient that will actually serve us the best as we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies.

FineLinen, welcome.  Hopefully I have not corrupted the substance of your post.  Surely did enjoy your scripture references….. thanks.

Maranatha

 

[john14_20]

Hi all. Typically in Christianity the interpretation of "the many will be made righteouss" is just some of us - how sure are you that ut actually means all?

 

Thanks! 

 

[FineLinen]

John14_20...what do you think are the chances that "all the more" associated with our Glorious Lord, the Last Adam, are less than what is fallen in the first Adam?

The exact word, "Polus", is used by the Apostle Paul for "the many" who were "made" sinners.

"For as by one man's disobedience polus are made sinners."

And what is the other side of the equation?

"SO

by the obedience of one shall polus be made righteous."

You will note......

In verse 12 "and so death passed upon all men (death pervaded the whole human race) for that all (pas) have sinned.

v.18

"Therefore as by the offence of one, judgement came upon all (pas) men to condemnation;

EVEN SO

by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all (pas) men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18

**** "so also the result of a single deed of righteousness is a life-giving aquittal for all mankind." Francis Weymouth

**** "so through on righteous act there is for all men a justified life." Ber.

**** "so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men." RSV

How sure am I that all actually means all? My friend, on what side of the equation are you referring....the First Adam or the Last?

The Bible is like a telescope. If a man looks through his telescope, then he sees worlds beyond; but if he looks at his telescope, then he does not see anything but that. The Bible is a thing to be looked through, to see that which is beyond."  Phillips Brooks

 

 

[FineLinen]

Elan, thankyou for a kind welcome. I anticipate many wonderful days with all of you. Your response is exceptional! This should make you run for the closest exit, but we are in total agreement.

There is an understanding that polus is preceded by a definite article which would seem to dispel the idea that “the many” may actually mean some and not others. The phrase “the many” is used so that one from among us (mankind) is excluded … the man Christ Jesus. Soooo, the exact number of "the many" that were made sinners by one man, that exact number of "the many" will (eventually) be made righteous. Hey, wait a minute, that means all of us!!!!
 
It seems that on a level more base than faith, hope is the ingredient that will actually serve us the best as we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies.

FineLinen, welcome. Hopefully I have not corrupted the substance of your post. Surely did enjoy your scripture references….. thanks.
Maranatha

FineLinen

I also like the New Jerusalem Translation (among others)...

"The whole creation is eagerly waiting for God to reveal his sons. It was not for any fault on the part of creation that it was made unable to attain its purpose, it was made so by God;

but creation still retains the hope of being freed, like us, from its slavery to decadence, to enjoy the same freedom and glory as the children of God. From the begining until now the entire creation, as we know, has been groaning in one great act of giving birth; and not only creation, but all of us who possess the first-fruits of the Spirit, we too groan inwardly as we wait for our bodies to be set free..."

And so, my friend, the hope placed within us by the Holy One is a refuge for us, knowing what our Father has begun, He will bring to perfection.

The Greek Word for Delivered is Eleutheroo

"And the hope is that in the end the whole of created life (the creature) shall be delivered (eleutheroo) from the shackles of mortality/ tyranny of change and decay into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Delivered =Eleutheroo=

To make free.

To set at liberty from the dominion of sin.

I like this limited atonement that our Lord speaks of in Romans! It reaches as far as the curse is found!

Maranatha!

"A person will worship something, have no doubt about that. We may think our tribute is paid in secret in the dark recesses of our hearts, but it will out. That which dominates our imaginations and our thoughts will determine our lives, and our character. Therefore, it behooves us to be careful what we worship, for what we are worshipping we are becoming."  Ralph Waldo Emerson

 

 

[Elan]

Originally posted by FineLinen
I like this limited atonement that our Lord speaks of in Romans! It reaches as far as the curse is found!

Maranatha! 

  FineLinen,


Hmmmmm, “reaches as far as the curse is found!”  It seems even more limited.  This limited atonement of our Lord ONLY reaches to everyone who has sin.  Yes, yes … there is a definite limit to the atonement of Jesus Christ!  There must be sin for the atonement to be applicable!  For where there is no sin there is no need for atonement.

Rom 6:21 So what benefit did you then reap from those things that you are now ashamed of? For the end of those things is death.    But now, freed from sin and enslaved to God, you have your benefit leading to sanctification, and the end is eternal life.   For the payoff of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

Everyone that has sin must die.  Mankind, angels, spirits, sin and the end result of sin is death. 

Heb 2:8 For when he put all things under his control, he left nothing outside of his control. At present we do not yet see all things under his control,    but we see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while,    now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by God’s grace he would experience death on behalf of everyone.    For it was fitting for him, for whom and through whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

This “everyone” in Hebrews is limited to all that die because of sin, but including mankind, angels, spirits; heck there may even be a cherub in this too (Eze 28). 

Heb 9:23 So it was necessary for the patterns of the things in heaven to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves required better sacrifices than these.    For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with hands—the representation of the true sanctuary—but into heaven itself, and he appears now in God’s presence for us.

His atoning work is limited to the earth, to the heavenlies – to the entire, absolute entirety of His creation.  Wherever there is sin, there’s death – wherever there is sin, His atonement makes conciliation to God.  Matters not what “being” it is, if it sins, Jesus’ limited atonement suffices.

FineLinen?  Are you still here?  Wait! Wait!   Where are you going!? ….. Hey, don’t slam that exit door…….

Maranatha…..

 

[FineLinen]

Greetings again in the Beloved One, Elan...

Could you direct me to how you put together your posts on this site...are there directions? Remember I am old and slow. I am enjoying reading your posts very much.

The limited Christ, proclaimed by many, offering potential redemption, and potential deliverance, is not the Christos to whom every knee shall bow, and tonque confess in worship, is Lord! This One, eats death, and all aspects of thanatos! He brings the prisoner of despair to Zao Life.

Heb. 2:9

"But we see Jesus....crowned with glory and honour....that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

The quote of the day!

"His atoning work is limited to the earth, the heavenlies--to the entire, absolute entirety of His creation. Wherever there is sin, there's death--whereever there is sin, His atonement makes conciliation to God. Matters not what 'being' it is, if it sins, Jesus limited atonement suffices." Elan

Yes, Elan, I am still here, and once I get the hang of this board, you will be faced with more of me!.....run for the hills!

"The kingdom of Christ, not being a kingdom of this world, is not limited by the restrictions which fetter other societies, political or religious. It is in the fullest sense free, comprehensive, universal. It displays this character, not only in the acceptance of all comers who seek admission, irrespective of race or caste or sex, but also in the instruction and treatment of those who are already its members. It has no sacred days or seasons, no special sanctuaries, because every time and every place alike are holy. Above all it has no sacerdotal system. It interposes no sacrificial tribe or class between God and man, by whose intervention alone God is reconciled and man forgiven. Each individual member holds personal communion with the Divine Head. To Him immediately he is responsible, and from Him directly he obtains pardon and draws strength." (Lightfoot ) 

 

[FineLinen]

Elan, greetings again....where are all the believers in the Limited Christ gone? I am sorry to have disappeared from this thread, but an OldShepherd hijacked me on another thread. How about a little word study on 1 John 2:2 from the Koine Greek. May our Lord be gracious to us as He leads us into the Unlimited One!

Far As The Curse Is Found

"Joy To The World The Lord Is Come"

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/j/o/joyworld.htm

1 John 2:2

"And He is the propitiation for our sins: AND not for our sins only, BUT also for the sins of the whole world."

"He is the "Propitiation"

Propitiation= Hilasmos=

An appeasing/ propitiating.

The means of appeasing, a propitiation.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2434&version=

For "Our"

Our= Hemon=

Our/ We/ Us

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2257&version=

"Sins"= Hamartia=

To be without a share in.

To miss the mark.

To err. To be mistaken.

To miss or wander from the path of uprightness.

To do or go wrong.

To wander from the law of God/ violate God's law.

Violation of the divine law in thought/ act.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=266&version=

"And"=

But/ Moreover.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1161&version=

Not for our sins "Only"=

Only/ Alone.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3440&version=

"But"= Allah

Forms a transition to the cardinal matter.

Nevertheless/ notwithstanding .

Nay/ rather/ yea/ moreover.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=235&version=

"Also"= Kai=

Also/ even/ indeed.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=

For the sins of the "Whole"=

All/ whole/ completely.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3650&version=

"World"= Cosmos=

The world/ The universe/ the inhabitants of the earth.

Men/ the human family.

The ungodly multitude.

The whole mass of men alienated from God.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2889&version=

http://www.saviorofall.com/dcforum/User_files/3ddfdfe324908e40.jpg

"I beheld till the thrones were cast down and the ANCIENT OF DAYS took His throne. His clothing was white as snow, and the hair of His head was like pure white wool. His throne was a blaze of flames and His wheels were burning fire. A river of fire streamed and issued forth from His presence. Thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him."

 

[FOMWatts<><]

AMEN!!!

FOMWatts<><

 

[Placid]

FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE?

"The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men, or
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

a. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved.
b. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
c. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

-Dr. John Owen

 

[Reformationist]

18th February 2003 at 12:00 PM Placid said this in Post #56

FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE?

"The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men, or
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

a. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved.
b. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
c. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

-Dr. John Owen

You're just full of good posts, aren't you? I'd have to go with option 2, though that's probably no big surprise. &nbsp;




&nbsp;

 

[calvinist]

Anyone who quotes the works of Dr. John Owen is on the right track!!!

 

[mellymell]

Jesus died for all, but that doesn't guarantee that those He died for will take advantage of the wonderful gift. Does that mean that Jesus' gift was a waste? Nope, not if just ONE person benefitted. There's a saying in the church that "if I were the only person in the world, He would have still died for me." Jesus loves each one of us individually that He died just to give people the CHOICE between eternal life or eternal death. Oh, what love.

 

[FOMWatts<><]

Anyone who quotes the works of JESUS CHRIST is on the right track

Much love Calvinist! HEHEHEHE!!!

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><