Universal or Limited Atonement or somewhere in between

Status
Not open for further replies.

Elan

Member
Nov 26, 2002
36
0
✟655.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
 :wave: mellymell,

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a large white throne and the one who was seated on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened—the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds. 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 20:15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire.


The lake of fire is certainly real enough.  For sure there are two “entities” (for lack of a better word) that are thrown into the lake of fire …. Death and Hades.  Otherwise the lake of fire is optional.  It’s optional from God’s vantage point, not man’s vantage point.  God can throw anyone who Jesus did not die for right on in there.   


All those judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds, deserve the lake of fire, even as we did before the Lord “saved” us.  “Saved” us from trespasses and sin.  Those who are being judged by what was written in the books know they’re being judged.  The are aware of what is occurring – they are fully conscious.  Now, as for me, if I had just been raised to life, then judged by my deeds and saw a lake of fire in front of me.  I believe that forthright, sincere, uncensored, unabridged, fervent contrition would ooze from every pore on my body.  Now, would it be too late for repentance?  Is it too late for forgiveness?  Is it too late for salvation?  Can the love of God that is in Christ Jesus touch these folks at that point in time?  God was so desirous to save the entire world that He send His Son to die for each and everyone.  He is desirous, and able, to work in each and every human exactly that which He has begun in us, and in the end - at the name of Jesus every knee should bow - in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess to the glory of God the Father that Jesus Christ is Lord (Phil 2:10-11).

 
I pray that God does not have to jolt unbelievers with such a fearful lake of fire scenario (but He did jolt Saul to Paul in a pretty dramatic way).  But it’s at His option, He may use the lake of fire as a component to bring about the needed repentance in one of His more callous children.  After all God has a free will – doesn’t He?   


We who can look back since the eyes of our hearts have been enlightened know how the Spirit has wooed and nurtured us along according to His good pleasure. Of course all those that are conciliated with God through Jesus Christ are in the book of life.  When and where we become included in the book of life is according to His desire and effort.  Not our desire and effort.  Why we become included is easy – that’s because of the perfect, completed work of Jesus Christ our Lord.  

 
Eph 1:15 For this reason, since I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 1:16 I do not cease to give thanks for you when I remember you in my prayers. 1:17 I pray that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you spiritual wisdom and revelation in your growing knowledge of him, 1:18 —since the eyes of your heart have been enlightened—so that you may know what is the hope of his calling, what is the wealth of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 1:19 and what is the incomparable greatness of his power toward us who believe, as displayed in the exercise of his immense strength.      

Maranatha……   :)
 
Upvote 0

Elan

Member
Nov 26, 2002
36
0
✟655.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Originally posted by john14_20
Interesting post, Elan. Are you suggesting that there is the option of choosing Christ after death?

Pete.

 :wave: Pete,

For God to save the whole world through Jesus Christ, it appears that the white throne age may well offer time for those who were not elected in this age to be brought to salvation.  It's His pleasure!

Maranatha.....
 
Upvote 0

Defender of the Faith 777

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2002
1,121
4
Visit site
✟2,076.00
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Oh, sorry. When I wrote that I had in mind the way that the Latter-Day Saints argue the Great Apostacy. That ALL Christians fell away and it was restored in 1830 with the ordination of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery as Melchizedekian priests. :scratch: Mormon church history; it's really confusing but very exciting.
 
Upvote 0

john14_20

...you in me and I in you
Dec 30, 2002
707
27
55
Australia
Visit site
✟1,006.00
Faith
Protestant
Hi Elan - thanks for your reply. I confess that I have always been tempted to think the same way, but people seem to hate the idea. You bring that stuff up and people just hammer you! Anyway, it does seem in contradiction to Christian thought down through the ages, yet that does not always mean everything.

 

Blessings, Pete. :)  
 
Upvote 0

mellymell

Active Member
Nov 26, 2002
103
1
45
Saint Louis, MO
Visit site
✟15,263.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Originally posted by Elan
 :wave: mellymell,

The lake of fire is certainly real enough.  For sure there are two “entities” (for lack of a better word) that are thrown into the lake of fire …. Death and Hades.  Otherwise the lake of fire is optional.  It’s optional from God’s vantage point, not man’s vantage point.  God can throw anyone who Jesus did not die for right on in there.


But, the Bible makes it clear that Jesus didn't just die for some but for the whole world (1 John 2:2). Someone previously said that this was only for Jews, but that's not what this says. It says that He didn't just die for "ours only" (being the Hebrews), "but also for the whole world." (being EVERYONE). That doesn't mean that everyone is saved, but because of the blood of Jesus, everyone CAN be saved.

You said, "God can throw anyone who Jesus did not die for right on in there." That doesn't sound like God to me? If God isn't a respector of persons, how could He have sent Jesus to die for SOME but not for ALL??? I don't believe in universal atonement nor limited atonement... But in universal opportunity, but limited to those who believe. LOL Hope that makes sense :wave:
 
Upvote 0

Elan

Member
Nov 26, 2002
36
0
✟655.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Originally posted by john14_20
Hi Elan - thanks for your reply. I confess that I have always been tempted to think the same way, but people seem to hate the idea. You bring that stuff up and people just hammer you! Anyway, it does seem in contradiction to Christian thought down through the ages, yet that does not always mean everything.

 

Blessings, Pete. :)  

:wave: Pete,


It is a mind boggling thought that God the Father wants to, and is fully able to, save every single human that has lived or ever will live.  Equally mind boggling is that there is not one single human that contributes one single thing to this salvation of God’s, whether before or after faith has come (except the Lord Jesus Christ).  “Believing” in this lifetime is man’s limited view.  God, through Jesus Christ, will not give up on anyone.  When the “time to believe is appointed” everyone will have their turn to repent and believe on Jesus Christ.  Everyone.  Whether in this age or the one to come.  He can do it.  He will do it.


Eph 3:20 Now to him who by the power that is working within us is able to do far beyond all that we ask or think, 3:21 to him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.


Man o’ man, this life in Him is so goooooood….. :)
 
Upvote 0

Elan

Member
Nov 26, 2002
36
0
✟655.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Originally posted by mellymell
But, the Bible makes it clear that Jesus didn't just die for some but for the whole world (1 John 2:2). Someone previously said that this was only for Jews, but that's not what this says. It says that He didn't just die for "ours only" (being the Hebrews), "but also for the whole world." (being EVERYONE). That doesn't mean that everyone is saved, but because of the blood of Jesus, everyone CAN be saved.

You said, "God can throw anyone who Jesus did not die for right on in there." That doesn't sound like God to me? If God isn't a respector of persons, how could He have sent Jesus to die for SOME but not for ALL??? I don't believe in universal atonement nor limited atonement... But in universal opportunity, but limited to those who believe. LOL Hope that makes sense :wave:

:wave: mellymell,

Gal 2:15 We are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, 2:16 yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

God has elected some to salvation, and consequent believing on the effectual work of Jesus Christ, right now in this very age we live.  Some have believed all their life.  Others come to believe at a later date in their life.  Others come to believe after this age we are now living in, in the next age.  In the end all of humanity gets it – gets the full salvation experience.  But believing or not believing does not, and cannot, change the fact that in Jesus Christ every single requirement of the Father was met in order to cleanse the entire human race.  For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also came through a man.  For just as in Adam all die, so also all will be made alive in Christ 1 Cor 15:21-22.  It can be an unsettling experience to understand that we as humans are so absolutely depraved that we cannot contribute even a smidgeon of goodness in the Father’s eyes that can improve our standing with Him, even on our very best day.

It’s the faithfulness of Christ that makes us acceptable to the Father, not our faith.  God the Father reckons us faithful in Christ.  I believe this a very good place to take a stand and that it is solidly rooted in scripture.

In Christ….Maranatha :)
 
Upvote 0

mellymell

Active Member
Nov 26, 2002
103
1
45
Saint Louis, MO
Visit site
✟15,263.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Originally posted by Elan
God has elected some to salvation, and consequent believing on the effectual work of Jesus Christ, right now in this very age we live.


You said that God has elected some to salvation... but there's a difference to that idea than what you are professing. Election of God doesn't mean that He chose you above someone else... it means that He chose you because of YOUR willingness to heed His voice.

Some have believed all their life.  Others come to believe at a later date in their life.  Others come to believe after this age we are now living in, in the next age.  In the end all of humanity gets it – gets the full salvation experience.

Not true. None have believed ALL THEIR LIFE. I don't know if you meant to say that they became believers at a young age (which is possible), but to say "all their life" is not true. The only one I know of who was a believer all his life was John the Baptist, whom the Bible says was filled with the Holy Ghost in His mother's womb. And as to the NEXT age, if you haven't believed in THIS age, there is no next age for you, for you will enter into eternal death after the Day of Judgment. If all humanity gets the full salvation experience, then who in the world was cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:15? And don't say Death and Hades because that happened in the previous verse. This verse says "ANYONE" (humans) who was not found in the Book of Life...

But believing or not believing does not, and cannot, change the fact that in Jesus Christ every single requirement of the Father was met in order to cleanse the entire human race.

Correct, Jesus Christ paid every single requirement as pertains to receiving our salvation. But, that doesn't mean that it doesn't take something on our part to actually RECEIVE it. Again, I give the analogy of the father who pays for his kids college education, but paying ALL the requirement doesn't mean that the kid will go to school and GET the education.

For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also came through a man.  For just as in Adam all die, so also all will be made alive in Christ 1 Cor 15:21-22.

I agree that all will be made allive. Revelation 20:13 says that the resting places of the dead "gave them up" to be judged. So, all will come back to life for judgment, but those not found in the Book of Life will then be cast away into eternal death in the Lake of Fire, not to burn up and that's it, but to burn for all eternity... Not to die to never live again, but to eternally die... ETERNAL DEATH.

It can be an unsettling experience to understand that we as humans are so absolutely depraved that we cannot contribute even a smidgeon of goodness in the Father’s eyes that can improve our standing with Him, even on our very best day.

It can also be an unsettling experience to understand that we, as humans, were given dominion in the earth when we were first created (Gen. 1:27) and that God honors our right to chose, otherwise we're just robots, and this isn't the case. He sets before us life and death, and it's OUR choice to make. Our choice doesn't EARN it, Jesus did that... But, our choice DOES CAUSE US TO RECEIVE IT. But, as far as being good to the Father, you're right... We're to unholy for that... we are MADE righteous through Christ.

It’s the faithfulness of Christ that makes us acceptable to the Father, not our faith.  God the Father reckons us faithful in Christ.  I believe this a very good place to take a stand and that it is solidly rooted in scripture.

This isn't actually true. Without OUR FAITH, it is impossible to please God. You might want to re-read Hebrews 11. God doesn't reckon us faithful unless we ARE faithful to Him. Great is HIS faithfulness, but we are commanded to be FAITHFUL. (Rev. 2:10)Why would He command us to be faithful if He'd just reckon us as faithful?

Your belief system gives people the idea that they can go ahead and live any kind of life because Jesus paid it all. But, God DEMANDS holiness from us, for without it, NO MAN SHALL SEE THE LORD... (Hebrews 12:14) That universalist view causes people to stumble unawares, and it's detrimental to their spiritual growth and to their being pleasing to the Lord.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Elan

Member
Nov 26, 2002
36
0
✟655.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
:wave: mellymell,

I definitely do not want to be a stumbling block to any of God’s believers.  Certainly this is not my intent.  Sincerely, I pray :pray: that your willingness to heed His voice continues with fervor all the days of your life.  That your faith multiples, your holiness will shine like a beacon and that you are well pleasing to the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.  Really!!!

Thank you for pointing out the poor choice of words in my previous post to you, “Some have believed all their life”.  I was intending to say that some have grown up from childhood in the Christian way and have never had to wrestle with believing.  Believing and trusting in the Lord was a way of life for them from the get-go.  But you more accurately pointed out that none have believed for all their life.  Of course I’m sure that you did not mean to exclude the Lord.

Would you clarify a point for me?  Before those who “enter into eternal death after the Day of Judgment”, do they resurrect?

I did re-read Hebrews 11. Thank you for the recommendation, quite refreshing, I hope to be able to return the same favor to you sometime in the not to distance future.  There is a heck-of-a-lot of faith going on in those men and women.  They all were commended for their faith, yet not one of them received what was promised.  For sure we keep the faith, we run the race set out for us and run it hard, really hard!  But we keep reading where many Christians stop reading.  Heb 12:2 indicates that Jesus is the pioneer and perfecter of our faith.  Keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus – His faithfulness to the Father is the only Faith that ever has or ever will make us acceptable to the Father. 

Heb 11:39 And these all were commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 11:40 For God had provided something better for us, so that they would be made perfect together with us.  12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, we must get rid of every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and run with endurance the race set out for us, 12:2 keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith. For the joy set out for him he endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God. 12:3 Think of him who endured such opposition against himself by sinners, so that you may not grow weary in your souls and give up. 12:4 You have not yet resisted to the point of bloodshed in your struggle against sin.

mellymell, please do post a reply to this post as you wish.  I believe we have drifted afar from the original intent of this tread and suggest that it would be best to establish a new thread.  May the Lord Jesus continue to richly bless you.  Maranatha….. :)
 
Upvote 0

Andrew

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2002
4,974
22
✟13,840.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I believe in election and universal grace. ie Christ died for all, but not all will receive the gift of salvation -- only those whom he predestined.

Back to basics: John 3;16 For God so loved THE WORLD, that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

does not say: For God so loved the ELECT BUNCH, ....
 
Upvote 0

Elan

Member
Nov 26, 2002
36
0
✟655.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Originally posted by Andrew
I believe in election and universal grace. ie Christ died for all, but not all will receive the gift of salvation -- only those whom he predestined.

Back to basics: John 3;16 For God so loved THE WORLD, that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

does not say: For God so loved the ELECT BUNCH, ....
 

 
Andrew, :wave:

It is glorious the way we GOT SAVED through the efforts of Jesus Christ and God the Father.  Hopefully we will come to believe more of His incredible plan, that was ordained before the foundation of the earth, that God the Father has positively, un-mistakenly guaranteed that the world should be saved through Him.  Jesus was not sent to condemn the world, far, far from it.  God sent Jesus to save the world.  And because it is God that is executing His plan, He will not fail.  Everyone is going to GET IT (salvation), eventually. He cannot, He will not fail.  He cannot miss!  Dog-gone-it, that’s how much He loved the world.  Man is way too feeble to even contribute believing to God’s salvation plan.    Oh, yes we do believe, but the believing that is required for believing unto salvation comes from God.

2 Ti 1:9 He is the one who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not based on our works but on his own purpose and grace, granted to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 1:10 but now made visible through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus. He has broken the power of death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel!

John 3:16 For this is the way God loved the world: he gave his one and only Son that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.  3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him.

Phil 1:29 For it has been granted to you not only to believe in Christ but also to suffer for him,

Phil 2:13 for the one bringing forth in you both the desire and the effort—for the sake of his good pleasure—is God.

Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among people by which we must be saved.

Maranatha,   :)

The “lottery” of God’s election seems to pertain to timing of that which will eventually be had by all.
 
Upvote 0

Andrew

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2002
4,974
22
✟13,840.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I just did my lunch time quiet time and discovered this scripture in support of unlimited atonement.

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;

well it says clearly above that Christ died for sins or sinners/the unrighteous.
more scriptures:

Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.


in the OT, atonement (killing of the lamb) was made for sins and sinners, not some elect bunch.

point: Christ's death/atonement was for SINNERS/UNRIGHTEOUS or SINS. that simply means it was for ALL men becos all men have sinned and there are none righteous:

Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


so if ALL men are sinners, and Christ died for sinners, then it means Christ died for all.
 
Upvote 0

mellymell

Active Member
Nov 26, 2002
103
1
45
Saint Louis, MO
Visit site
✟15,263.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Originally posted by Andrew
so if ALL men are sinners, and Christ died for sinners, then it means Christ died for all. [/B]

I agree that Christ died for all. Another Scripture that makes the point even clearer is 1John 2:2, saying "...and He Himself is the propitiation (satisfaction) for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

So, yes, I think that this debunks Limited Atonement; however, I don't believe that it supports Universalism either. Although Christ died for the sins of the world, you haven't received that gift and taken advantage of it until you confess and believe (Rom. 10:9).

As always, I use the illustration of the father who pays for 5 of his kids college education under a pay1 get 4 free deal. Even if 2 of the kids don't go, their tuition was still paid for under the deal, and the money's not wasted because the price would have been the same for 1 or for all to go. But, just because the price was paid doesn't mean that all of the children will take advantage of it and go on to higher education. Just because Jesus paid it all doesn't mean that some of the people in the world won't take advantage of it and get saved.

The price has been paid and salvation is a free gift. All we have to do is accept it! :wave:
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Elan

Member
Nov 26, 2002
36
0
✟655.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As always, I use the illustration of the father who pays for 5 of his kids college education under a pay 1 get 4 free deal. Even if 2 of the kids don't go, their tuition was still paid for under the deal, and the money's not wasted because the price would have been the same for 1 or for all to go. But, just because the price was paid doesn't mean that all of the children will take advantage of it and go on to higher education. Just because Jesus paid it all doesn't mean that some of the people in the world won't take advantage of it and get saved.

:wave: mellymell,

When you have a few free moments, and if you care to, would you kindly develop a couple of aspects of your analogy? 

Is there anything that would prevent a child from seeking higher education other than the father’s “pay 1 get 4 free deal”?  I mean like, work and pay for the higher education himself or perhaps decides to go for the same education but wants to pay his own way?  Can he do that?

What happens to the child that starts the higher education but does not graduate?  Just doesn’t quite make the grades and drops out without receiving a diploma? 

Hey – thanks!! :)
 
Upvote 0

Andrew

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2002
4,974
22
✟13,840.00
Faith
Non-Denom
So, yes, I think that this debunks Limited Atonement; however, I don't believe that it supports Universalism either. Although Christ died for the sins of the world, you haven't received that gift and taken advantage of it until you confess and believe (Rom. 10:9).

Mellymell,

you've misunderstood me. in my first post i said i believe in universal grace, meaning salvation is offered to ALL thru the cross since Christ died for sinners/sins/the unrighteous = all men. But this gift must still be recieved by faith. :)
 
Upvote 0

mellymell

Active Member
Nov 26, 2002
103
1
45
Saint Louis, MO
Visit site
✟15,263.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Originally posted by Elan
:wave: mellymell,

When you have a few free moments, and if you care to, would you kindly develop a couple of aspects of your analogy? 

Is there anything that would prevent a child from seeking higher education other than the father’s “pay 1 get 4 free deal”?  I mean like, work and pay for the higher education himself or perhaps decides to go for the same education but wants to pay his own way?  Can he do that?


In that particular example, yes it's possible. But, for the purposes of this analogy, we know that no one can pay the price for sin except Jesus. My analogy was not meant to be a perfect parallel of the spiritual truth, but rather just an illustration to show the point.

What happens to the child that starts the higher education but does not graduate?  Just doesn’t quite make the grades and drops out without receiving a diploma?

Well, that child drops out and doesn't receive the reward, just like if we choose to fall away from the faith (Hebrews 6:4-6), we would be like drop-outs who forfeit the reward. 

Originally posted by Andrew
you've misunderstood me. in my first post i said i believe in universal <B>grace</B>, meaning salvation is offered to ALL thru the cross since Christ died for sinners/sins/the unrighteous = all men. But this gift must still be recieved by faith.

Yes, my apologies. It appears we are in complete agreement. God bless.

Much love to you all! :wave:
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Status
Not open for further replies.