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Unity without absorption!

Xeno.of.athens

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The Anglican Ordinariate exemplifies unity without absorption; it's a Catholic rite within the Catholic Church, consisting of individuals from an Anglican background who sought communion with the Holy See. To my knowledge, it stands as a unique instance of a group associated with the Protestant Reformation entering into full communion with Rome.

The Ordinariate maintains its distinct liturgy, closely mirroring the Book of Common Prayer with only slight modifications. Its members adhere to the Catechism of the Catholic Church to guide their faith, yet they are also encouraged to formulate their own Catechism that echoes the teachings of the CCC. This autonomy extends to managing their church life in alignment with their traditions. This development is a notable outcome of the Second Vatican Council's efforts.

It could serve as a model for unity with the Catholic Church for some Lutherans and others from different traditions.
 

MarkRohfrietsch

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The Anglican Ordinariate exemplifies unity without absorption; it's a Catholic rite within the Catholic Church, consisting of individuals from an Anglican background who sought communion with the Holy See. To my knowledge, it stands as a unique instance of a group associated with the Protestant Reformation entering into full communion with Rome.

The Ordinariate maintains its distinct liturgy, closely mirroring the Book of Common Prayer with only slight modifications. Its members adhere to the Catechism of the Catholic Church to guide their faith, yet they are also encouraged to formulate their own Catechism that echoes the teachings of the CCC. This autonomy extends to managing their church life in alignment with their traditions. This development is a notable outcome of the Second Vatican Council's efforts.

It could serve as a model for unity with the Catholic Church for some Lutherans and others from different traditions.
Ultimately, is it not absorption in that is is an "ordinate" rather than as an autonomous Church like those in the Eastern Rite? The congregation is absorbed into the RCC as no new Anglican Ordinate clergy are being ordained by the CC, only those who convert from the Anglican Church. Eventually the well will run dry. No question that assimilation is the end game in my opinion resulting in the complete loss of the traditional and theological identity.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Ultimately, is it not absorption in that is is an "ordinate" rather than as an autonomous Church like those in the Eastern Rite? The congregation is absorbed into the RCC as no new Anglican Ordinate clergy are being ordained by the CC, only those who convert from the Anglican Church. Eventually the well will run dry. No question that assimilation is the end game in my opinion resulting in the complete loss of the traditional and theological identity.
We shall see. But as to clergy ordination they have ordained new priests, even married ones, that were not previously Anglican priests. The pastor in Omaha is an example. So I think you would have to admit that the jury have not yet come in with any verdict.

As things develop I would perhaps be in favor of a Lutheran Ordinariate. I can’t be a full member of an Anglican Ordinariate as my grandfather’s Methodism doesn’t quite qualify me based on the rules. But as my mother was Lutheran if there were similar rules I could be a full member. I can attend Anglican Ordinariate liturgies and receive communion there, but never be a parish council member.

There is plenty of interest from plain old Catholics who want a reverent liturgy but want it in English. The fear is that by not restricting Ordinariate membership they could be overwhelmed and thus assimilated by us other Catholics. They have something good and so far it is being protected and encouraged. Sharing with the rest of us is fine, but in a was as not to dilute it.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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We shall see. But as to clergy ordination they have ordained new priests, even married ones, that were not previously Anglican priests. The pastor in Omaha is an example. So I think you would have to admit that the jury have not yet come in with any verdict.

As things develop I would perhaps be in favor of a Lutheran Ordinariate. I can’t be a full member of an Anglican Ordinariate as my grandfather’s Methodism doesn’t quite qualify me based on the rules. But as my mother was Lutheran if there were similar rules I could be a full member. I can attend Anglican Ordinariate liturgies and receive communion there, but never be a parish council member.

There is plenty of interest from plain old Catholics who want a reverent liturgy but want it in English. The fear is that by not restricting Ordinariate membership they could be overwhelmed and thus assimilated by us other Catholics. They have something good and so far it is being protected and encouraged. Sharing with the rest of us is fine, but in a was as not to dilute it.
I was totally unaware of new ordinations rather than transfers in the the CC. Your statement about being a full member of a group that is in more than a fellowship agreement with the CC is a bit disturbing to me in that the CC has established a double standard. Turn this around, and this should also prohibit a member of an ordinature from joining a Latin rite parish; such is not the case. It's like a one way valve; easy passage to the Latin rite, zero flow to the ordinateur. Sounds like this is to inhibit rather than nurture.

This among a few other doctrinal issues would be a deal breaker for me as a confessional Lutheran; other non confessional Lutherans likely won't care.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I was totally unaware of new ordinations rather than transfers in the the CC. Your statement about being a full member of a group that is in more than a fellowship agreement with the CC is a bit disturbing to me in that the CC has established a double standard. Turn this around, and this should also prohibit a member of an ordinature from joining a Latin rite parish; such is not the case. It's like a one way valve; easy passage to the Latin rite, zero flow to the ordinateur. Sounds like this is to inhibit rather than nurture.
When my Methodist grandfather became Catholic his only real option was to become Latin Rite at the local Catholic parish. I suppose if he had been somewhere other than rural South Dakota he could have found one of the other Rites to join, but then South Dakota is South Dakota. Now the Methodists and Episcopalians/Anglicans can join, and would be encouraged but not required to join the Ordinariate. Had he been alive then he could have done that. So instead of being a founding member of the Milaca Catholic Church maybe he would have been a founding member of the Milaca Ordinariate Church. Who knows. It didn't exist then. Point being many Anglicans have joined the Latin Rite, and can continue to join the Latin Rite. The Ordinariate exists for those who wish to continue in an Anglican spirituality and liturgy. I honestly didn't grow up Anglican, and neither did my father. I would need to learn the liturgy and the spirituality, which are subtle in difference but real. I shouldn't be playing at representing the Ordinariate as a parish council member without some years of study and practice. But I can attend, be part of all of the liturgies, have an Ordinariate priest as a confessor, probably not be confirmed or married in such a parish, but I could receive their last rites.

I could petition to join, based on having a Methodist grandfather. One guy encourages me to do so. I think I won't, mostly because I've never been a 'real' Anglican. It doesn't matter how much John Donne or Milton or T.S. Eliot or John Henry Newman I have read. Shakespeare. as is now widely accepted, was Catholic Recusant, so he doesn't count. My spirituality isn't terribly English one way or the other. Now if my father or mother were Anglican, and there was a bit of that spirituality evident in my home growing up, they would be happy to have me and I wouldn't feel so odd about pretending to be what I have not been.

Actually, one can go from one Rite to another in the Catholic Church but it has always been like pulling teeth. I'm Latin Rite. I can't just up and join the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church tomorrow. I can attend their Liturgy and receive the Eucharist from them, but not become one of them without some major petitioning. You could. I probably couldn't. Likewise if you would become Catholic in an Ordinariate parish you would belong to the Ordinariate. It's just a thing. There are thousands of ordinary Latin Rite Catholics who would love to join the Ordinariate because of the more reverent Liturgies. Those are the ones impeded the most in all of this. But whose fault is that? Mostly the promoters of liturgical mush and those in high places who want to forbid the Latin mass. A whole different ball of wax.
This among a few other doctrinal issues would be a deal breaker for me as a confessional Lutheran; other non confessional Lutherans likely won't care.
This isn't a doctrinal issue. It's a membership issue. For the most part you stick with the Rite you were born into or you first joined into. There are exceptions but it's pretty well fixed in stone. Anglicans and Episcopalians do have options to join either the plain Latin Rite or the Ordinariate, and if they joined the plain Latin Rite they can become Ordinariate easily. It's a two way valve, but with a flow limiter.

If there were a Lutheran Ordinariate I expect it would be mostly for refugees from the ELCA rather than WELS or LCMS. But then I suspect most of the people in the ELCA are happy to be there and not looking to leave. Maybe the applicability would be those old fashioned parishes that never did fit easily into the ELCA and have finally had it with the ELCA. I donno. I haven't been that well attuned since I left Minnesota, land of ten thousand Lutheran congregations. There are more like 100,000 lakes there and probably much more than 10,000 Lutheran congregations there.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I was totally unaware of new ordinations rather than transfers in the the CC.
Actually they have a chunk of seminarians in the North American Ordinariate. A dozen seminarians would make most dioceses quite proud. Most of them look rather young. Maybe raised Anglican (or not) but pretty certainly most were not Anglican priests beforehand. Just not old enough. https://ordinariate.net/our-seminarians
 
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The Liturgist

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Ultimately, is it not absorption in that is is an "ordinate" rather than as an autonomous Church like those in the Eastern Rite? The congregation is absorbed into the RCC as no new Anglican Ordinate clergy are being ordained by the CC, only those who convert from the Anglican Church. Eventually the well will run dry. No question that assimilation is the end game in my opinion resulting in the complete loss of the traditional and theological identity.

Indeed.

The Ordinariate basically consists of Anglo Papalists, a surprisingly large subset of Anglo Catholics who desired the Church of England or their own particular Anglican province to be reunited with the Roman Catholic Church under the Pope, while retaining the Anglican liturgy, as well as some Anglo Catholics who were pushed too far by liberalism and who would have crossed the Tiber anyway, presumably because they regarded the Continuing Anglican churches as non-viable, or there were no Continuing Anglican churches available to them, and they saw Orthodoxy as alien, or lacked access to the more familiar worship of a Western Rite Orthodox parish.

The introduction of homosexual marriage in 2003 was a disaster for the Anglican communion, which caused the Episcopal Church USA to lose 33% of its members, and the response of Dr. Rowan Williams was tragically shortsided and inadequate - only a full separation of communion would have contained the damage.

People alienated by this were going to go somewhere, and ACNA insofar as it is in communion with the Global South which is still technically in some kind of relationship with Canterbury was intolerable to some, and the Continuing Anglican churches that formed in the 1970s in response to liberalism in the Episcopal church only really exist to any great extent within the United States - there are very few in Canada and almost none in the UK. So in places such as Canada, Europe or Australia, the Ordinariate would be, for many disaffected Anglicans, an obvious option.

However, it does not represent an ideal option, since the Ordinariate is subject to Papal Supremacy, and like the Sui Juris Eastern Catholic Churches, is not fully autonomous - indeed, it is even less autonomous than the Eastern Catholics (I think in theory the Melkites or the Chaldeans or the Ukrainians could break communion with Rome if they were sufficiently aggrieved, and retain control of their property, while this is less likely to be the case with the Anglican Ordinariates). Just as the Traditional Latin Mass is being suppressed at present by a Pope who regards it as a threat to Catholic unity, there is nothing stopping a future Pope from Latinizing the Anglican Ordinariate parishes, from requiring them to adopt the Roman Missal and Liturgy of the Hours unmodified. And only the enthusiastic endorsement of the Eastern liturgy at Vatican II protects the Eastern Catholic churches from conversion to the Western Rite, but Latinization remains a problem, despite having been officially condemned by Vatican II - ironically, under the pretense of de-Latinizing, the Maronite Church actually removed much of its ancient liturgical material that dated back to before the schism that separated it from the Syriac Orthodox Church, and adopted various Novus Ordo practices, in the process becoming more Latinized (and I would argue the Maronite liturgy specifically has the most abuses and the most problems of any Roman Catholic liturgy, and I have met Maronite converts to Orthodoxy who left because of frustrations with it - I feel there is an urgent need for a Maronite Rite Vicarate in the Orthodox Church).
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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They have been going long enough to have a generation of cradle Catholics in the ordinariate who were born into it.
If like most Churches; I would expect the attrition rate to be a bit higher than the baptismal rate. Maybe a bit more than a "bit higher".
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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If like most Churches; I would expect the attrition rate to be a bit higher than the baptismal rate. Maybe a bit more than a "bit higher".
Time will tell, but I pray for their faithfulness and growth. God is reliable and in his own sometimes secret ways rewards the good faith of his people.
 
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