UNITY OF GOD's PEOPLE

[msortwell]

Considering the following prayer of our Lord . . .

Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name:those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth:thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; [John 17:11b - 20]

. . . When, and in what way, is this prayer (the element regarding the unity of believers in the teachings of the apostles) fulfilled?

Blessings

 

[Bro in Christ]

John 17.. correct?

Eph 4:3-13

1 jn 3:2

1 cor 15:51-52

1 peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

eph 5:27 ....

 

[msortwell]

John 17.. correct?

Eph 4:3-13

1 jn 3:2

1 cor 15:51-52

1 peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

eph 5:27 ....

I guess I would have to ask that you explain how your selected verses answer the question asked . . .

. . . When, and in what way, is this prayer (the element regarding the unity of believers in the teachings of the apostles) fulfilled?

 

[Bro in Christ]

When that departure of earth and the glorification of Church saints happen till then it is a daily challenge

 

[msortwell]

When that departure of earth and the glorification of Church saints happen till then it is a daily challenge

At Jesus' second coming? Following the rapture? When the new heaven and new earth are ushered in? Or???

Am I to understand from the lack of response that Dispensationalists generally believe that this petition of Jesus was not and will not ever be met?

 

[Biblewriter]

At Jesus' second coming? Following the rapture? When the new heaven and new earth are ushered in? Or???

Am I to understand from the lack of response that Dispensationalists generally believe that this petition of Jesus was not and will not ever be met?

Jesus' desire was that we all should be one. And we have answered with a thousand denominations. We have not obeyed his expressed desire, and are guilty.

 

[msortwell]

Jesus' desire was that we all should be one. And we have answered with a thousand denominations. We have not obeyed his expressed desire, and are guilty.

But . . . As you know, He was not praying to us, but to the Father. Neither was his prayer conditional.

Will His request to the father remain unmet forever?

 

[Bro in Christ]

It will be met ... When he gives us the end of our faith 2 Peter 1:9 ...a new soul

 

[msortwell]

It will be met ... When he gives us the end of our faith 2 Peter 1:9 ...a new soul

Are you saying that ALL of the redeemed (both Jew and Gentile) are essentially one? And may I infer that they will remain essentially one throughout eternity?

 

[Dispy]

Considering the following prayer of our Lord . . .

Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name:those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth:thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; [John 17:11b - 20]

The above is truely the Lord's Prayer. The "so called" Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6:9-13 is the prayer that Jesus said to teach His disciples how to pray.

That prayer Jesus taugh His disciples to pray was for the kingdom that He was to establish on earth.

. . . When, and in what way, is this prayer (the element regarding the unity of believers in the teachings of the apostles) fulfilled?

Keep in mind that Jesus came only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matt. 15:24) to fulfill the promises made to the Jewish fathers (Rom. 15:8). The main promise is that He would establish the kingdom promised in Jer. 13:5.

At the time Jesus prayed this prayer, Israel, as a nation, had not yet rejected the Trinity.

Jesus promised Israel in Isaiah 42:6 "I the Lord have called thee in righteusness and wild hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people for a light for the Gentiles.

Presently, Israel is still in a "slumbering eyes" condition (Rom. 11:7-12). But when the the fullness of the Gentiles be come in (vs. 25) all Israel will be saved as it is written.

The "fullness of the Gentiles" is the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ. Then comes the events of the 70th week of Dainel 9, i.e. the Tribulation.

During the Tribulation there will be 144,000 sealed Jews preaching "the gospel of the kingdom" (Rev. 7:4-8), and untold numbers of will be saved including Gentiles. (vss. 9-14).

The above prayer will be fulfilled then.

 

[msortwell]

The above is truely the Lord's Prayer. The "so called" Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6:9-13 is the prayer that Jesus said to teach His disciples how to pray.

That prayer Jesus taugh His disciples to pray was for the kingdom that He was to establish on earth.



Keep in mind that Jesus came only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matt. 15:24) to fulfill the promises made to the Jewish fathers (Rom. 15:8). The main promise is that He would establish the kingdom promised in Jer. 13:5.

At the time Jesus prayed this prayer, Israel, as a nation, had not yet rejected the Trinity.

Jesus promised Israel in Isaiah 42:6 "I the Lord have called thee in righteusness and wild hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people for a light for the Gentiles.

Presently, Israel is still in a "slumbering eyes" condition (Rom. 11:7-12). But when the the fullness of the Gentiles be come in (vs. 25) all Israel will be saved as it is written.

The "fullness of the Gentiles" is the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ. Then comes the events of the 70th week of Dainel 9, i.e. the Tribulation.

During the Tribulation there will be 144,000 sealed Jews preaching "the gospel of the kingdom" (Rev. 7:4-8), and untold numbers of will be saved including Gentiles. (vss. 9-14).

The above prayer will be fulfilled then.

Do you believe that this is a unity that: 1) includes the present Gentile church, and 2) will continue after the coming of the new heavens and the new earth?

 

[Bro in Christ]

Do you believe that this is a unity that: 1) includes the present Gentile church, and 2) will continue after the coming of the new heavens and the new earth?

the church is either Jew or Gentile .... gal 3:28

yes once glorified ... unity exists

 

[Bro in Christ]

Are you saying that ALL of the redeemed (both Jew and Gentile) are essentially one? And may I infer that they will remain essentially one throughout eternity?

for the church its eph 5:27

not said directly but infers to the goodness of God to do like wise in Dan 12 with OT saints dealing with eternal life

 

[Biblewriter]

But . . . As you know, He was not praying to us, but to the Father. Neither was his prayer conditional.

Will His request to the father remain unmet forever?

Are you saying that ALL of the redeemed (both Jew and Gentile) are essentially one? And may I infer that they will remain essentially one throughout eternity?

Do you believe that this is a unity that: 1) includes the present Gentile church, and 2) will continue after the coming of the new heavens and the new earth?

If you had bothered to actually study this prayer, instead of building theories about it, you would not have made these gross errors.

The actual words of the part of this prayer you are referring to are:

20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
John 17:20-23

The two portions I have highlighted in red boldface are the positive and final proof that this prayer is not something for eternity. It was for the here and now. For its stated purpose was to make the world believe, and to make the world know, That the Father had sent Jesus.

This has most certainly not happened, and the desired results have not been accomplished. For the world neither knows not believes that Jesus was sent by the Father.

If this were intended to take place in eternity, the time for believing would have been already past.

So no, just because Jesus wanted that did not mean it would happen. God desires that all men should repent, but most of them do not.

 

[Dispy]

Do you believe that this is a unity that: 1) includes the present Gentile church, and 2) will continue after the coming of the new heavens and the new earth?

In the times of the new heaven and new earth, all members of the Church, the Body of Christ, will be in heaven to glorify God, through His Son, for eternity.

All those that were promised and earthly kingdom will glorify God, through His Son in the new earth.

 

[msortwell]

If you had bothered to actually study this prayer, instead of building theories about it, you would not have made these gross errors.

Wow. Someone is looking for a fight. Sorry, no fight here. I have forwarded no theories. I have only asked questions - with the exception that I did point out that Jesus' prayer was not conditional. I am interested in understanding how dispensationalists, with the strong distinction they maintain between Israel and the church, understand Jesus' prayer for unity. You seem to have offered an answer that is consistent with maintaining that distinction.j

The actual words of the part of this prayer you are referring to are:

20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
John 17:20-23

The two portions I have highlighted in red boldface are the positive and final proof that this prayer is not something for eternity. It was for the here and now. For its stated purpose was to make the world believe, and to make the world know, That the Father had sent Jesus.

This has most certainly not happened, and the desired results have not been accomplished. For the world neither knows not believes that Jesus was sent by the Father.

If this were intended to take place in eternity, the time for believing would have been already past.

So no, just because Jesus wanted that did not mean it would happen. God desires that all men should repent, but most of them do not.

So . . . It is your understanding that Jesus prayed to the Father for something that the Father would be either unable or unwilling to give? Or is there another explanation that you would offer?

 

[msortwell]

In the times of the new heaven and new earth, all members of the Church, the Body of Christ, will be in heaven to glorify God, through His Son, for eternity.

All those that were promised and earthly kingdom will glorify God, through His Son in the new earth.

Just to be clear . . . Do you believe that Jesus' prayer for unity among those who believe, through the teaching of the Apostles, has in view unity between all believers (Jew & Gentile) or does he have only one of the two in view, or . . . .?

 

[Bro in Christ]

john 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you


within the context

 

[Dispy]

In the times of the new heaven and new earth, all members of the Church, the Body of Christ, will be in heaven to glorify God, through His Son, for eternity.

All those that were promised and earthly kingdom will glorify God, through His Son in the new earth.

Just to be clear . . . Do you believe that Jesus' prayer for unity among those who believe, through the teaching of the Apostles, has in view unity between all believers (Jew & Gentile) or does he have only one of the two in view, or . . . .?

What prayer are you talking about. Make your request a little plainer.

 

[Dispy]

The above is truely the Lord's Prayer. The "so called" Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6:9-13 is the prayer that Jesus said to teach His disciples how to pray.

That prayer Jesus taugh His disciples to pray was for the kingdom that He was to establish on earth.



Keep in mind that Jesus came only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matt. 15:24) to fulfill the promises made to the Jewish fathers (Rom. 15:8). The main promise is that He would establish the kingdom promised in Jer. 13:5.

At the time Jesus prayed this prayer, Israel, as a nation, had not yet rejected the Trinity.

Jesus promised Israel in Isaiah 42:6 "I the Lord have called thee in righteusness and wild hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people for a light for the Gentiles.

Presently, Israel is still in a "slumbering eyes" condition (Rom. 11:7-12). But when the the fullness of the Gentiles be come in (vs. 25) all Israel will be saved as it is written.

The "fullness of the Gentiles" is the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ. Then comes the events of the 70th week of Dainel 9, i.e. the Tribulation.

During the Tribulation there will be 144,000 sealed Jews preaching "the gospel of the kingdom" (Rev. 7:4-8), and untold numbers of will be saved including Gentiles. (vss. 9-14).

The above prayer will be fulfilled then.

Do you believe that this is a unity that: 1) includes the present Gentile church, and 2) will continue after the coming of the new heavens and the new earth?

During the kingdome reigh of Christ on earth Zecharriah 8:23 tells us: "Thur ssaith the Lod of hosts: In those days it sall com to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We go with you; for we heard that God is with you."