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Unity; having difficulty

Discussion in 'Whosoever Will, May Come - Liberal' started by Sm412, Jan 9, 2019.

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  1. Sm412

    Sm412 Member

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    Peace and blessings to all.

    I am reading the letters of Paul right now. He talks a lot about unity of Christians and the church. It's a common, recurring theme in his writing. I am having trouble with this.

    Conservative Christianity leaves a lot to be desired. Here and there you can see me getting into it with them on these forums, and I feel far from unified with them.

    It seems to me like they think the only thing the bible says it that homosexuality is wrong. To them, the bible is three sentences: In the beginning, homosexuality was wrong. The end. They seem to have skipped right past love thy neighbor, judge not lest ye be judged, and let he who is without sin cast the first stone. They've also made an alliance with rugged right-wing capitalism, which ideologically worships money, praises selfishness and self interest, reveres the rich, and vilifies the poor. This is also in DIRECT conflict with the teachings of Christ and the acts of the apostles. Also, slavery, segregation, and restriction of voting rights were in the past endorsed by many of the conservative Christian community. The KKK itself STRONGLY identifies as a Christian organization. The end to these injustices was fought back against with brutality, war, and terrorism. The incarceration of scientists during the enlightenment was perpetrated by conservative Christianity. They have since given up ground on these issues and accepted change, but continue to persecute other vulnerable groups.

    The persecution of the LGBT community by many sects of Christianity is in my view abhorrent, unacceptable, and contradictory to Christ. Sin or no sin. Entertaining the idea that homosexuality is sin and not a natural biological and genetic occurrence, if Christ died for our sins (and mine have certainly been numerous, I don't know about you), then He died for the sins of homosexuals as well. The fallout is immeasurable. Suicide rates for LGBT persons are sky high. This oppression is killing people, and I cannot accept it. You don't have to agree with their lifestyle, but you absolutely can leave them alone if not for any other reason but accepting the idea of individual freedom and free will. They seem to think homosexuals are "recruiting," and social acceptance of homosexuality encourages people to join them. This is a fundamental ignorant misunderstanding of sexuality. You're either gay or you're not. No straight person is going to hop on the gay wagon just because it's acceptable to do so.

    Naturally I spew venom when I see this hatred. It drives a wedge between me and them that is difficult to overcome. It's to the point where I start becoming hostile toward the faith in general, which is not good. I see so many failing to follow even the most basic teachings of Christ: Love God, and love thy neighbor. This means your black, gay, or atheist neighbor. If you can't do that, why even be a Christian? I try so hard to love them, but when I see a long drawn out pattern of injustices that they perpetuate in the past and up until this day, it makes it extremely hard.
     
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  2. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Lets not skip over the part that says "go and sin no more" (John 8:11)
     
  3. Sm412

    Sm412 Member

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    And how exactly does that give us a green light to oppress and persecute systematically those we deem as sinners to the point where they're committing suicide?
     
  4. Sm412

    Sm412 Member

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    Again, your persecution and oppression of the LGBT community is in no way justified by the teachings of Christ. It is directly vilified by the teachings of Christ, in fact.
     
  5. Sm412

    Sm412 Member

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    Now, if you're here to argue, kindly leave. I'm seeking advice on how to unify with people like you. You're driving the wedge between us further.
     
  6. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    It doesnt.
     
  7. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Dont really want to argue.
     
  8. Sm412

    Sm412 Member

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    Okay, I must have misunderstood your intentions, and my apologies if I have. My point is, some of the views and actions of some Christians are so far removed from the teachings of Christ it just boggles my mind. It's hard for me to unify, and leaves a lot to be desired. I WILL NOT judge, hate, or persecute the LGBT community, as Christ has commanded me not to.
     
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  9. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    That left it up to her to decide what her new path would be. The same goes for all of us.
     
  10. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Who is driving?
     
  11. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Never said otherwise.
     
  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    1 John 1:8 KJV: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ...
    This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.--

    1 John i. 5. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light; because their deeds were evil.--John iii. 19.
    [Search domain www.biblehub.com/kjv/1_john/1-8.htm] 1 John 1:8 KJV: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    Light has no fellowship with darkness. It cannot.
     
  13. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I was interested in the thread, because of the title. But, the reality is you have an axe to grind. You unfairly judge a whole group of Christians for believing what the Bible says about one topic and you make it the focus of what anyone who would be labeled "conservative" believes? You don't even make a fair caricature! As one person said on a post about that subject yesterday, it isn't that the group holds that sin above all others, it is simply that nobody is out actively fighting for their right to be Christian and watch porn or commit adultery or commit murder or steal. When they do those things they aren't united in standing against what the Scriptures say and demanding to be treated like all the others. No genuine Christian treats allows another Christian to just walk in open sin (as listed in the New Testament Scriptures) and be considered in the faith. No genuine Christian would void the words of Scripture. Matthew 18 tells us what to do. We don't rally around the group of adulterers and demand that they have open doors and equal rights in the church and say they should be able to sleep with whoever they want. We don't rally around thieves and say it is okay that they steal. We don't rally around liars and say that lying is justified when the end result serves our purpose (like the muslims). We don't rally around child molesters, rapists, murderers, envyers, slanderers, etc and demand that in their unrepentance they deserve equal rights within the church. Why do YOU think that one group of unrepentant sinners deserves better treatment than all other groups of unrepentant sinners?

    One big reason there is no unity in the visible church is because the visible church doesn't really stand for anything. There is such a diverse range that the beliefs of some "visible churches" are totally foreign to other "visible churches". Some void Scripture in their current decisions, while others value Scripture beyond anything else. Only God could bring unity among the visible churches. But, maybe He doesn't want to or even need to. Jesus described 7 churches in Revelation that were different and each had their own issues that He was dealing with. Within those 7 churches, Jesus made promises only to the overcomers. What you see isn't the church. We were warned that wheat would be among the tares in the visible church. We were warned that there would be ravenous wolves and deceptions--to deceive even the elect, if it were possible. The True Church will be unified. God will break off the lies from those who are willing, because God is God. God won't force people who choose to love their deception over Him. He will let them live where the chose to make their bed. But, for those who are willing to be transformed, wow!
     
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  14. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    "There are three main reasons for the rejection of conviction; lack of prayer, love of sin and association.

    The lack of prayer in a mans life will do more harm to his soul than a legion of demons. It will allow him to go to places he should never go, say things he should never say and associate with people that he should never be near.

    When a man elects to not pray, he losses contact with the Holy Spirit. Yes, the Comforter is far from him. Though the Comforter may reside within the man, he no longer stirs the pool of waters within the man.

    Prayer is the grinding stone that keeps the sword of God sharp upon a mans heart and a sharp sword pricks the heart easily. Without prayer, a dull sword can be swung with might and be deflected by the land upon the heart that has experienced drought for many seasons.

    The second reason for the dulling of the conscience is; the love of sin. The greatest love of sin is; the acceptance of it. No matter how sin is accepted, within one’s own life, the lives of others within the body of Christ or in the lives of others outside of the body of Christ. It is the love of sin!

    To accept any sin, without fighting it or sharing with others to fight it. Is one of the greatest disasters of our age. For when men don’t fight sin, they are saying it has no penalty.

    Yet worse, they will then say there is no penalty because one may live a life of sin, and receive a life time of grace in this life and the after life.

    Though this is not true and any man knows this under examining it. For does the man who drinks as a man covets his neighbor’s wife receive eternal life? Or does the sodomite go to heaven? Has it come to the point that a man can argue such things? Are we in such a bad state, that we can not discern good from evil? Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

    Yes we live in an age of “Sin brings no punishment.” And those who lust are the greatest example of that fruit. For they say, do not do this or that, yet they do more evil with their eyes, and will not repent with their hearts. For this I have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears.

    For what is a mans hope then?
    Conviction; Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    Is his hope in the law of God or the flesh. For with the mind of Christ we serve the law of God, yet who can fulfill the law?

    Yet worse, the flesh of man serves sin, so is all for loss? Are we a doomed people? I have thought so, a few times. I have yelled out at God and cursed the heavens. How can I walk straight within a sinful body?
    Conscience; Be Still And Know That I Am God

    When a man is still, something happens to him, the noise of this world fads in his mind as the wake from an aircraft-carrier as swallowed by the sea. The fast pace of this world is taken from his soul and peace settles upon him as the calm sea brings peace and the ways of his Creator begin to draw him away from self and towards the ways of Heaven.

    The conscience becomes sharp and hears those quite words from above. And when a man meditates upon what has entered his conscience from above, he begins to live as those who live above. Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.

    In simple words; the flesh is overcome by the spirit.

    Yes, all men sin. Yet some men live with a pure conscience. Lean upon the Lord and live with a clean conscience.

    You will see as you have never seen, hear as you have never heard and I speak of seeing and hearing the things of this world as you have never known and hearing from the world above that you have never heard.

    Have you ever wondered why you don’t hear from God in any real manner? One of the greatest reasons is that your conscience has been so numbed by the noise of this world that your conscience is in a state of unconsciousness.

    Be still says the Lord; Psalm 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth."
    excerpt from somewhere online.
     
  15. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Jesus did just that.

    You are advocating for only the "sneaky" sinners in church.
    Good luck with that group. I hope you fit in.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  16. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus did not condone sin, EVER! Read the whole of Scriptures. I have absolutely no problem allowing homosexuals to come into a visible church--just like I have no problem with a drunkard coming, a rapist coming, an adulterer coming, a thief coming, a dope-dealer or a murderer coming and wanting to hear a genuine representation of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I do have a problem if it means you refuse to tell them what they are doing is wrong. Jesus never did that. Lame man told "go and sin no more lest a worse thing happen to you." Adulteress told "neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more." The woman known by all for adultery is at Jesus' feet drying His feet with her hair. The obvious picture is repentance. She is thankful for what Jesus rescued her from, not what He was enabling her to continue doing. Zacchaeus responded by repentance before Jesus and promised to make right (3 fold) any wrong that he did. In His presence, sinners repented. Those who didn't, were eventually judged (Pharisees, Judas Iscariot, some towns where he did a lot of his miracles, because they didn't repent, for instance).

    What sinners saw and still see in Jesus is rescue from their sin and its consequences, not a reason to continue in it with His blessing. Nowhere in Scripture supports that.
     
  17. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So, for example, you are lying about me. I'm calling you out, personally, for slander (IAW Matt 18). I hope you aren't a slanderer (Rev 21:8). But, you just maliciously tried to slander me by intentionally misstating what I stand for and then sarcastically hoping I am one of them. You claim to stand for love, right? How is that loving to hope that someone is actively involved in hidden sin? I don't actively hope for anyone to choose sin. Jesus didn't actively hope for people to choose sin. God doesn't actively hope for people to choose sin--unless the Scriptures aren't really True. So, if you truly represent Him, how on earth could you make such a statement?

    So now you have a choice before you. I don't have to ride you; but I will steadfastly let you know that you are in the wrong.
     
  18. (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

    (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Where do I even begin.

    Well, the Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong.


    Yes, love your neighbor. Love them enough to confront them about their sin so they may avoid a path of wickedness. It is not very loving to apathetically tell a non-believe to "have fun on your way to hell".

    Yes, do not judge lest ye be judged. Meaning, do not judge someone unless you are willing to face the same judgement for the same sin. Not, "don't judge". If I tell a homosexual that they are living in sin I would expect others to tell me I am living in sin if I am a homosexual.

    Let he who is without sin cast the first stone is a lesson of mercy over punishment. Meaning, adulterers deserve to be stoned to death. Homosexuals deserve to be put to death, Heck, we all deserve death because we have fallen short of perfection. The part that you are ignoring is the part where Jesus spares condemnation because the adulteress repented and turned away from her life of sin. Hence "Go forth and sin no longer" not "Go forth and continue your life of sin because nobody will condemn you". Those living in willful and deliberate sin in spite of the word of God will be condemned worse than that of a non-believer. For it is written:

    If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit", and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” (2 Peter 2:20:22)


    Reference please. Conservative Christians do not "worship money" only God. They don't "praise selfishness and self interest", they value the entrepreneurship of the individual over the desires of the collective. They don't "revere the rich and vilify the poor", they praise people for the fruits of their labors and demand that people take responsibility for their decisions (Parable of the Talents).

    After reading this statement I had to pause in a moment of prayer lest I post something I will regret. All I will say on this comment is, "How dare you?" How dare you lecture us on following the teachings of Christ when so much of His teachings must be completely ignored to justify same sex marriage and homosexuality.

    Actually, check your history. The KKK was a liberal Southern Democrat organization started as a retaliation to conservative Christians in the North freeing the slaves and demanding they seen as equal.

    I do not condone any violence or persecution against anyone. However, do not be deceived to think that a Christian holding onto traditional Christian values and are not willing to compromise them as "persecution". Believe it or not, Christians are the most persecuted people in the world. Look it up. Millions of Christians are martyred every year because of their faith. It is only in Christian countries that homosexuals enjoy so much freedom. Try taking a homosexual to the middle east, or Russia, or China and see how long they last.


    Absolutely Right! It is the most correct thing you said in this entire post. Homosexuality is a sin. However, if a homosexual goes to hell, it is because they have rejected Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Not because of their sin. Regardless, someone who truly establishes Jesus as Lord will not want to continue a life of sin. Remember 2 Peter 2:1-22 ?

    And? This country has never been as supportive and accommodating to the LGBTQ community. The are legally able to get married and it is now practically illegal for a Christian to confess their theological convictions without being labeled a bigot and charged with hate speech. Yet the suicide rates amongst LGBT persons are on the rise. Why is that? Surely you can't honestly be suggesting that the suicide rates amongst homosexuals are the fault of conservative Christians are you?


    Yes, and in the same way they can also accept a Christian's right to exercise their religious freedom and not support same sex marriage and respect Christians by not demanding that the biblical definition of marriage be changed to accommodate their sin.

     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  19. (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

    (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you!
     
  20. (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

    (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Citation please! Show me where there is a systematic persecution homosexuals and that this "persecution" is a direct result of their suicide rates?
     
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