Unitarian-Universalism

[hartlandcat]

As a Unitarian myself, I was wondering what people here (Christians and non-Christians) thought about Unitarianism (or Unitarian-Universalism, as it's called in North America and in some other places).

Please don't worry about offending me, I won't be offended. Just give your opinions and/or arguments, but please don't be offended if I attempt to counter them.

 

[Rae]

I was wondering what people here (Christians and non-Christians) thought about Unitarianism (or Unitarian-Universalism

I think it's a decent philosophy which fits with different liberal religious beliefs as well as agnosticism and atheism, but can't take the place (IMO) of a traditional religion. And I say this as a Pagan attending a UU church.

 

[ShadowAspect]

I took one of those tests yesterday, the kind that you find on the internet which askes you a load of questions and then tells you your personality type... except this one told you which religion best suited your beliefs and outlook.

Well, anyway, my answer came back as " Unitarian-Universalism 100%".
So obviously I had a quick read up on it, as it's a church I have never heard of (probably because it is rare in my country?).

My initial conclusion is that it is a bit of a cop out. I wouldn't be suprised if my source of information was biased, but from what I understand, they have no real set of beliefs, it's basically "show up and believe what you like" kind of thing.

To my mind, that's more like a social club than a religion.

Having said that, they don't seem like a bad bunch of people... if they have no set of fixed beliefs, then there is nothing to them that I can strongly disagree with, except that they have no fixed beliefs. it's hard to attack a group who don't really seem to stand for anything.

 

[hartlandcat]

Shadow --- I see that you live in the UK as well. If you live in England, there's quite a few of them, but there's rather less in Scotland and Wales, and none at all in Northern Ireland. Look at unitarian.org.uk where you can find a congregation near to you. I don't think most people are aware of the Unitarian Church, since it's not a very large organisation.

Yes, I've done that test as well. It's not really the case of "show up and believe what you like". Basically, we believe that there is at most one benevolent God. We believe that no organisation has a monopoly on truth, and that many different religions are valid paths (although this doesn't mean that we believe them all to be equally true, since they can't be). We also affirm and promote the inherent worth and dignity of every person, and we have faith that all people have the ability to do some good, regardless of what they may have done in the past.

 

[silverflare]

I like many parts of Universalism, but I think it is far too inclusive for me. The inclusion of faith-based beliefs as equally valid as logic, reason, and science does not thrill me at all. It's impossible for one to take a stance against the bad kinds of faith which discriminate and breed fundamentalism if one adheres to a religion which accepts faith (even if it is the non-discriminatory variety) as valid. I like Universism much better, it's kind of like this: Universalism - faith = Universism

That being said, I respect Universalists a lot and find them to be very accepting and wonderful people.

 

[Gwynne]

I always thought along the lines of ShadowCat, that it was a cop out for people who didn't want to take a firm stance on faith. I attended one UU service and it seemed more like people who just wanted to get together and chat without having to think to hard about the difficult things in life.

 

[hartlandcat]

The inclusion of faith-based beliefs as equally valid as logic, reason, and science does not thrill me at all.

We are "tolerant" of faith-based beliefs, but very few of us have them. Most of us value logic, reason and science over faith.

It's impossible for one to take a stance against the bad kinds of faith which discriminate and breed fundamentalism if one adheres to a religion which accepts faith

We're actually not quite as tolerant and inclusive as we like to think we are. We're not exactly tolerant of beliefs that promote intolerance. Although some of us will literally tolerate anything, most of us follow the principal that if a belief does not affirm the inherent worth and dignity of every person, we don't "tolerate" it. We don't attempt to discriminate against people that hold such beliefs.

I attended one UU service and it seemed more like people who just wanted to get together and chat without having to think to hard about the difficult things in life.

Unitarian(-Universalist) congregations vary hugely --- it generally depends on the minister (if they're lucky enough to have one!) --- the one you're describing doesn't sound like usual congregation, although it does sound like the one I went to a few weeks ago. Although it was very intellectual (like my usual one is).

 

[Gwynne]

Unitarian(-Universalist) congregations vary hugely --- it generally depends on the minister (if they're lucky enough to have one!) --- the one you're describing doesn't sound like usual congregation, although it does sound like the one I went to a few weeks ago. Although it was very intellectual (like my usual one is).

But that's true of any denomination that has individual congregations I'm a United Methodist. My grandmother is a retired Methodist minister and had two churches for the duration of her ministry. Those two churches, while only a 10 minute drive apart, and of the same denomination, couldn't have been more different!

 

[firefromheaven]

We are "tolerant" of faith-based beliefs, but very few of us have them. Most of us value logic, reason and science over faith..

Does this religion read the bible at all?Who do you worship?Who do you serve?

Hbr 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Just something to think about.

 

[Fuzzy]

Does this religion read the bible at all?Who do you worship?Who do you serve?

My understanding of UU is that many religions are seen as valid, with
an emphasis on commonality, mutual respect, and mutual spiritual growth.
As such, the Bible is read, as are other spiritual texts. From my limited
understanding of UU, who is worshipped/honored is dependent on who
is running the service each week. I've seen one UU chruch that was
esentially Christian, another that was essentially a Wiccan coven. Whatever
the congreagation agrees with seems to be the way.

 

[firefromheaven]

My understanding of UU is that many religions are seen as valid, with
an emphasis on commonality, mutual respect, and mutual spiritual growth.
As such, the Bible is read, as are other spiritual texts. From my limited
understanding of UU, who is worshipped/honored is dependent on who
is running the service each week. I've seen one UU chruch that was
esentially Christian, another that was essentially a Wiccan coven. Whatever
the congreagation agrees with seems to be the way.

Jam 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Since they want to learn spiritual growth then they should take that verse and think about it.Make up their mind to believe something for stablity.

The real deal is to be saved from our sins and from the wrath to come.Just like God destroyed the world by a flood he's going to destroy it by fire next time when he comes. All those who don't accept his salvation through his Son Jesus Christ will be cast into the lake of fire forever. God is love and don't want that to happen. So believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Rae]

The real deal is to be saved from our sins and from the wrath to come.

In your OPINION. Not in many other peoples' opinions.

 

[Fuzzy]

Jam 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Since they want to learn spiritual growth then they should take that verse and think about it.

What they should do is take that full chapter and think about it. What they
should do is take that verse, and it's surrounding verses, establishing a context, and think about it.

James I:5-8
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

If you're going to ask God for wisdom, do it with sincerity, don't doubt, don't
try to hedge your bets, commit yourself totally.

James I:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

So, if UU is a religion that emphasizes and celebrates the worth of every
person, and seeks to act compassionately, and seeks the happiness of love,
then God, according to your holy book, will probably not have a problem
with them. So stop judging. Or do you think James 2:1-4 doesn't apply to you?


And since you like to thump your 'holy words,' I'll thump some back.

Let my worship be within the heart that rejoicest,
​

for behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals.
​

Therefore, let there be beauty and strength,
​

power and compassion, honor and humility,
​

mirth and reverence within you.
​

-Charge of the Goddess
Doreen Valiente

 

[firefromheaven]

What they should do is take that full chapter and think about it. What they
should do is take that verse, and it's surrounding verses, establishing a context, and think about it.

James I:5-8
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

If you're going to ask God for wisdom, do it with sincerity, don't doubt, don't
try to hedge your bets, commit yourself totally.

James I:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

So, if UU is a religion that emphasizes and celebrates the worth of every
person, and seeks to act compassionately, and seeks the happiness of love,
then God, according to your holy book, will probably not have a problem
with them. So stop judging. Or do you think James 2:1-4 doesn't apply to you?


And since you like to thump your 'holy words,' I'll thump some back.

Let my worship be within the heart that rejoicest,
​

for behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals.
​

Therefore, let there be beauty and strength,
​

power and compassion, honor and humility,
​

mirth and reverence within you.
​

-Charge of the Goddess
Doreen Valiente

I didn't judge. I warned. I notified. I reproved. I rebuked. There's a difference. Judging is condemning. Which I didn't do.

Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Eze 3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous [man], that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

 

[firefromheaven]

In your OPINION. Not in many other peoples' opinions.

It's not just my opinion.It comes from the word of God. If you have trouble with that you have trouble with God. It's his commandments.It's his word. He spoke it.I only repeated it.

Nothing personal just saying what the word says. Or would you prefer I tell you a lie?

 

[Fuzzy]

I didn't judge. I warned. I notified. I reproved. I rebuked. There's a difference. Judging is condemning. Which I didn't do.

All those who don't accept his salvation through his Son Jesus Christ will be cast into the lake of fire forever.

You also expressed them to be unstable.


James 2
1 My brethren, show no partiality as you hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. 2 For if a man with gold rings and in fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, 3 and you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, "Have a seat here, please," while you say to the poor man, "Stand there," or, "Sit at my feet," 4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my beloved brethren. Has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which he has promised to those who love him?

You've judged them by their clothing. They "wear" a faith you see as shabby.
God decides where they go and if their behavior is good or bad, not you.

 

[firefromheaven]

And since you like to thump your 'holy words,' I'll thump some back.

Let my worship be within the heart that rejoicest,
​

for behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals.
​

Therefore, let there be beauty and strength,
​

power and compassion, honor and humility,
​

mirth and reverence within you.
​

-Charge of the Goddess
Doreen Valiente

Also did you know that to serve another god besides Jesus Christ is idolatry and is an abomination to the Lord?That's one of the ten commandments you know? Thou shalt have no other gods before me.



Deu 5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

Deu 5:8 Thou shalt not make thee [any] graven image, [or] any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the waters beneath the earth:

Deu 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me,

Deu 5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Deu 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold [him] guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Deu 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

Deu 5:13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

Deu 5:14 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Deu 5:16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Deu 5:17 Thou shalt not kill.

Deu 5:18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

Deu 5:19 Neither shalt thou steal.


Deu 5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Deu 5:21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any [thing] that [is] thy neighbour's.

 

[firefromheaven]

You also expressed them to be unstable.


You've judged them by their clothing. They "wear" a faith you see as shabby.
God decides where they go and if their behavior is good or bad, not you.

1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

[Fuzzy]

Also did you know that to serve another god besides Jesus Christ is idolatry and is an abomination to the Lord?

Yes, yes I did know that. Too bad it's your rule, as a Christian, and not mine.
I am not a "Citizen" of your "State," so there's some rules that don't
matter to me.

That's one of the ten commandments you know? Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

"Pagan" does not mean stupid or ignorant. Neither does "Christian."

Deu 5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

Deu 5:8 Thou shalt not make thee [any] graven image, [or] any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the waters beneath the earth:

Deu 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me,

Deu 5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Well. There's three possibilities here. A) God is not so omnipotent that he
can't keep his own creation from usurping his power. B) There are other
gods, just as powerful and valid, that the God of the Bible doesn't want you
to worship. C) These are the rules that you've got to follow to worship
the God of the Bible (and eventually the Teachings of Jesus).

Deu 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain

Deu 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it

Your god wants respect. Good for him.

Deu 5:13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

Deu 5:14 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Then your god, or you, should really do something about businesses
that are open 7 days a week, such as the power company that lights the
churches, or an economy that pushes some people to work two or three
concurrent jobs.

Deu 5:16 Honour thy father and thy mother.

Deu 5:17 Thou shalt not kill.

Deu 5:18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

Deu 5:19 Neither shalt thou steal.

Deu 5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Deu 5:21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any [thing] that [is] thy neighbour's.

And these would be the "be nice to each other" rules, that every religion,
social group, and person has.

 

[Rae]

It's not just my opinion.It comes from the word of God.

Yeah...the opinion part is where you say the Bible is the word of any deity. I don't think it is, and I don't think there's any good evidence that it is. That is your opinion. I don't share it.

If you have trouble with that you have trouble with God.

No, I have trouble with people who claim things for God which aren't true, like IMO the Bible. I find much of what's credited to God in the Bible to be blasphemy. I know the Gods I know would never order children murdered, for example. I know that petty humans do, though, and I know petty humans wrote the words of the Bible down, so no. I have problems with humans who claim to speak for God, not God her/himself.

It's his word. He spoke it.

Again, your opinion, not objective fact.

Nothing personal just saying what the word says. Or would you prefer I tell you a lie?

Uhm...in my opinion, you are saying things that aren't true. You're claiming the Bible is the words of a deity, which I think is utterly untrue.