unGodliness

[BigBadWlf]

Polygamy is condoned in The Bible as are concubines...I wonder why more Christian men in America do not see that as a Biblical right?

So is forcing yourself on your recently widowed sister-in-law


All part of God’s plan for the family

 

[KCKID]

so romans1 has nothing to do with it then? if it doesn't, then explain why.

Romans 1 has been explained and countered and explained and countered and explained and countered and . . . .

the biblical position on polygamy, from what i've read, is neutral. the biblical position on same-sex sex however is always referenced as a negative. Hard to say God blesses either one.

I think this is the point that is being made, Jet. We know that polygamy can't be right (well, I HOPE we do anyway) and yet the Bible appears to be 'neutral' (your word) about it. That makes some of us wonder what the heck is going on when an adulterous relationship is deemed to be 'okay' (when we ALL know that adultery ISN'T okay) and yet same-sex sex is somehow deemed NOT to be 'okay.'

Something doesn't ring true here. In fact, it's a downright biblical contradiction! What do we hold fast to in the Bible and what do we toss out ...do we flip a coin?

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Romans 1 has been explained and countered and explained and countered and explained and countered and . . . .

yes, the liberal view of it being a condemnation against someone's 'natural' disposition has been easily countered numerous times.

that argument doesn't hold any weight in light of the wording of the passage. Paul was writing to the romans, which were open partakers in same-sex sex at the time. He did not encourage this behavior, and even highlighted it as a problem. Remember Paul was a pharisee, after all, so he knew the implications of what he was writing to them about behavior.

I think this is the point that is being made, Jet. We know that polygamy can't be right (well, I HOPE we do anyway) and yet the Bible appears to be 'neutral' (your word) about it.

again, this is a humanistic ideal. I personally disagree with polygamy, but not everyone does, and ancient patriarch type societies still practice polygamy today.

That makes some of us wonder what the heck is going on when an adulterous relationship is deemed to be 'okay' (when we ALL know that adultery ISN'T okay) and yet same-sex sex is somehow deemed NOT to be 'okay.'

its not adultery, because the man is married to, or has concubine servants. For example, king david and bathsheba. david had multiple wives, yet he was still in adultery for being with bathsheba. this was because she was already married, and then he had her husband killed once he found out that she was pregnant. this is a combination of sinful actions, including adultery and murder, but God's judgment on him was the death of their child.

Something doesn't ring true here. In fact, it's a downright biblical contradiction! What do we hold fast to in the Bible and what do we toss out ...do we flip a coin?

your own assumptions made it a contradiction, i just explained how it isn't. do i agree with polygamy? nope. do i agree that it was part of biblical culture? yes.

I'm not into tossing any of it out, myself.

 

[david_x]

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." Matthew 11:28-30

Almost says that. However, we stumble and we fall. We can face them with a happy heart but our life is hard.

 

[BigBadWlf]

yes, the liberal view of it being a condemnation against someone's 'natural' disposition has been easily countered numerous times.

Countered?

The only thing that shows up here is denial and claims that only a true Christian™ could grasp its real meaning. That isn’t countering

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Countered?

The only countering I have seen is denial and claims that only a true Christian™ could grasp its real meaning. That isn’t countering

I explained why your explanation of romans1 doesn't work, I don't know if you have addressed it yet.

You don't have to be christian, or any religion, to compare the 2 explanations of the passage and see which one is more plausible.

peace.

 

[*Starlight*]

It seems to me that the whole OP can be summed up as "God wants you to suffer!" and the last line as "I am right and everyone who disagrees is wrong!"

Or did I totally misunderstand it?

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear KCKID,

Romans 1 has been explained and countered and explained and countered and explained and countered and . . . .

That’s just your opinion, several of us can see Romans 1 clearly condemns same-sex sex, and we have explained that, what you call explanation we call denial. But I don’t accept you have countered it as I haven’t seen any scripture cited which countenances same-sex sex.

…We know that polygamy can't be right (well, I HOPE we do anyway)

We know that same-sex sex can’t be right, (well I hope we do anyway) but the Bible doesn’t condone polygamy in the end because Jesus Christ’s NT teaching (who is the fulfilment of the law and prophets) makes it clear unions are to be faithfully one man and one woman.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Dear KCKID,
That’s just your opinion, several of us can see Romans 1 clearly condemns same-sex sex, and we have explained that, what you call explanation we call denial. But I don’t accept you have countered it as I haven’t seen any scripture cited which countenances same-sex sex.

That’s just your opinion

We know that same-sex sex can’t be right, (well I hope we do anyway)

your opinion

but the Bible doesn’t condone polygamy in the end because Jesus Christ’s NT teaching (who is the fulfilment of the law and prophets) makes it clear unions are to be faithfully one man and one woman.

Of course the bible condones polygamy…many times

 

[Apollo Celestio]

That’s just your opinion
[/SIZE][/FONT]

your opinion


Of course the bible condones polygamy…many times

For church positions, deacons and elders are to be the husband of one wife, it's in a few letters. Interesting to see people using that True Christian (TM) thing, like this is GA or something.

 

[Leah]

So you are saying we must be "sad in Christ"?

Sounds odd.

After much prayer, my God seems happy and I am happy. I R confused with what your God is trying to say.

For christians, the question we need to ask ourselves is "when was the last time I made God happy?"

Because I'm sure you know that our spiritual destiny is to be conformed to Him, not the other way around. You DO know that, right?

Know what pleases me? God being pleased with me.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

For christians, the question we need to ask ourselves is "when was the last time I made God happy?"

Because I'm sure you know that our spiritual destiny is to be conformed to Him, not the other way around. You DO know that, right?

Know what pleases me? God being pleased with me.

My master's happiness is my happiness.

 

[FenderElctrc]

My goodness! I'm sorry if I have come off that what I say is better than what you say. I'm sorry if I have come off prideful in any way, shape or form.

Do any of you see what I am talking about with politics and division here? Why is it that we talk to each other so rudely? Where is the beautiful, spotless Bride Jesus prayed for in John 17?

God does not desire you to suffer as one user thought I said. He desires you to give up your life for Him, meaning EVERYTHING, and follow Him. Jesus said that those who die for His sake, will find life. What a lot of us are doing is claiming Jesus as our Lord and Savior, and doing all that stuff that we're so religiously taught, and yet not giving up our lives for God.

So many of us in America are so focused on ourselves (Going to college, getting a good job, having a successful life, etc.) than what we are called to do as Christians. We are called to be preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And I'm not talking about what we think scripture is talking about or what we think God's will is. I'm talking about the Word of God that is revealed to us through repentance, seeking God's face and a deep intimate relationship with Him, fear of Him, seeking wisdom and knowledge and discernment, etc.

Too many of us think we got things right. We all see through the glass dimly. There's no way we can do this on our own. We need to seek all understanding from God. We need to test all words to the Word of God. If they don't match up, then throw that away.

To answer an earlier question I read about what denomination and political party is right. I believe I said it in my first post that politics do not belong in the Church. Church is not to be a school of opinion for that is the very definition of a heresy. And for denominations; What is the reason these thousands of denominations have been created. Mostly, they're due to people going their own way and leaning on their own understanding. Many times, the people have turned their ear from edification from the Body and puffed their chests up with all their pride. We are not to follow a man, but we're to follow Christ.Actually, if you're forming separate groups and dividing from the Body of Christ, then isn't that what we call a cult.

We are called to be One Body of believers. Jesus was not split into thousands of pieces, but He was and is One.

Test my words,
Philip

P.S. - By the way, while we go living the American dream of living a successful life with a great career and all that, our fellow brothers in the eastern world die for our Lord. They risk their very lives to do His will. Some are shot immediately after being water baptized. Many native missionaries over there have established many churches in places where Jesus was never even heard of before. Many of these missionaries are killed. Out brothers' blood are shed while we live in luxury.

 

[*Starlight*]

And I'm not talking about what we think scripture is talking about or what we think God's will is.

Everyone has their opinions about what God's will is, including you. And I don't think any of these opinions is perfect.

Too many of us think we got things right. We all see through the glass dimly. There's no way we can do this on our own. We need to seek all understanding from God. We need to test all words to the Word of God. If they don't match up, then throw that away.

But different people disagree on what "the Word of God" actually is.

Church is not to be a school of opinion for that is the very definition of a heresy. And for denominations; What is the reason these thousands of denominations have been created. Mostly, they're due to people going their own way and leaning on their own understanding.

Everyone has their own understanding, and that's natural, because everyone's different and perceives reality in a different way. The reason for different denominations is that they understand God in different ways. All churches have their own opinions about God, since it's impossible to prove any objective truths about God. Everything concerning God is a matter of personal beliefs, which are different for every person.

 

[FenderElctrc]

Everyone has their opinions about what God's will is, including you. And I don't think any of these opinions is perfect.

But different people disagree on what "the Word of God" actually is.

Everyone has their own understanding, and that's natural, because everyone's different and perceives reality in a different way. The reason for different denominations is that they understand God in different ways. All churches have their own opinions about God, since it's impossible to prove any objective truths about God. Everything concerning God is a matter of personal beliefs, which are different for every person.

Then that is not the Church. We are not to go our own way. We have one God. When we seek all understanding from Him, we will have the same understanding.

Do you think that God will allow a broken Body? Do you think that He will contradict His own Word? Do you know that if we seek to understand His Word on our own, we will surely fall? Denominations are not of God.

1 Corinthians 1:10-17:
10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."
13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Do we not do the same thing Paul was talking about in verse 12 when we say, "I follow Luther," or "I follow John Wesley," or "I follow Calvin?"

Does not Paul speak a completely different teaching than what you have presented to me in verse 10? Do you not know that the natural man is a sinner and dishonors God in all the He does? We are not to rely on our own understanding. If what you believe does not line up with what God has put in His Word, then you are absolutely wrong and need to repent your sins and pray that God may not put a curse upon you.

Love you all and pray that God may have mercy on all of us so that we may be spared from God's judgment and come to realize how horribly sinful and blind we are in this nation of America and many other parts of the world.

-Philip

 

[*Starlight*]

Then that is not the Church. We are not to go our own way. We have one God. When we seek all understanding from Him, we will have the same understanding.

Actually, no... different people understand God in different ways. It all depends on someone's point of view, since every person perceives reality differently than everyone else.

Do you think that God will allow a broken Body? Do you think that He will contradict His own Word? Do you know that if we seek to understand His Word on our own, we will surely fall? Denominations are not of God.

It depends... if different denominations coexist together peacefully and realize that they all perceive the truth about God in different ways, then it's not a "broken body". I think it only becomes broken when denominations start fighting with each other and claiming that they are right about everything and all other denominations are wrong.

1 Corinthians 1:10-17:
10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."
13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Do we not do the same thing Paul was talking about in verse 12 when we say, "I follow Luther," or "I follow John Wesley," or "I follow Calvin?"

Yes, some people do that...

Does not Paul speak a completely different teaching than what you have presented to me in verse 10? Do you not know that the natural man is a sinner and dishonors God in all the He does? We are not to rely on our own understanding. If what you believe does not line up with what God has put in His Word, then you are absolutely wrong and need to repent your sins and pray that God may not put a curse upon you.

What one person believes to be the "word of God" can be different than what another person believes to be the "word of God". In reality, everyone depends on their own understanding, because that's all each person has... everything you know, and everything you see, is in your own, imperfect mind... no person has perfect, absolute knowledge.

Love you all and pray that God may have mercy on all of us so that we may be spared from God's judgment and come to realize how horribly sinful and blind we are in this nation of America and many other parts of the world.

-Philip

I'm not in America

 

[FenderElctrc]

Actually, no... different people understand God in different ways. It all depends on someone's point of view, since every person perceives reality differently than everyone else.

It depends... if different denominations coexist together peacefully and realize that they all perceive the truth about God in different ways, then it's not a "broken body". I think it only becomes broken when denominations start fighting with each other and claiming that they are right about everything and all other denominations are wrong.

Yes, some people do that...

What one person believes to be the "word of God" can be different than what another person believes to be the "word of God". In reality, everyone depends on their own understanding, because that's all each person has... everything you know, and everything you see, is in your own, imperfect mind... no person has perfect, absolute knowledge.

I'm not in America

We are not to have our own separate ideas on everything. That is not of God simply because of the fact that all understanding is to come form Him. If we have differing ideas, then only one, or none are right and we will all perish.

Do not lean on your own understanding, but let all understanding come from God. In reality, truthfully, as Christians, we are to let all understanding come from God. We DO NOT depend on our own understanding because if we do, we will fall. We can not grow if we accept this idea that it's okay that we have differing views on the Word of God.

I agree on the fact that we have an imperfect mind. The scriptures say that we see through the glass dimly. However, that is why we must, as one undivided Body, be constantly admonishing one another, edifying one another, correcting one another, etc. daily. Not accepting each others separate views as okay. That's completely unGodly.

And I know that these problems are not only affecting America, which is why I said "and many other parts of the world." However, these things are a huge problem in America, and God's judgment will surely come upon us if we don't hit our faces to the ground and cry out to God to forgive us for our horrible sins. America is like the core of a horrible black cloud that is slowly spreading around the world. People in other countries are beginning to want the American "dream" which is really a lie. We are in big trouble.

 

[*Starlight*]

We are not to have our own separate ideas on everything. That is not of God simply because of the fact that all understanding is to come form Him. If we have differing ideas, then only one, or none are right and we will all perish.

Why would someone perish simply for having ideas? That doesn't make sense to me. Since people don't have perfect knowledge about everything, it's natural that we all have different views on things. And there's nothing bad with it. When people share different views with each other, they can together learn more and get closer to the truth.

Do not lean on your own understanding, but let all understanding come from God. In reality, truthfully, as Christians, we are to let all understanding come from God. We DO NOT depend on our own understanding because if we do, we will fall. We can not grow if we accept this idea that it's okay that we have differing views on the Word of God.

How can understanding come from God? People's understanding of everything comes from their own perception, experience, reason, logic, discussions with others, etc. Of course it's possible to say that, since God is the source of everything, then all knowledge any person has is from God. But it's always ultimately limited to a person's own mind, and that's why it's even possible for two people to view the same thing in different ways but still be correct. For example, two people are looking at an evenly lit cylinder from two sides. A person looking from one side sees a circle, and a person looking from another side sees a rectangle. Both are correct when describing what they see, even though their descriptions are different. But when both of them accept that the other person's view may be just as correct as theirs, they can discuss it together and eventually realize the real shape of the object they were looking at.

I agree on the fact that we have an imperfect mind. The scriptures say that we see through the glass dimly. However, that is why we must, as one undivided Body, be constantly admonishing one another, edifying one another, correcting one another, etc. daily. Not accepting each others separate views as okay. That's completely unGodly.

How do you determine what's correct then? What if you have two people "correcting" each other, because each of them believes that the other person is wrong? Especially since some things, such as religious beliefs, are unknowable (at least for now), so it's all just a matter of personal opinion.

And I know that these problems are not only affecting America, which is why I said "and many other parts of the world." However, these things are a huge problem in America, and God's judgment will surely come upon us if we don't hit our faces to the ground and cry out to God to forgive us for our horrible sins. America is like the core of a horrible black cloud that is slowly spreading around the world. People in other countries are beginning to want the American "dream" which is really a lie. We are in big trouble.

What's so wrong with America? To me, it generally seems like a good country. It's not perfect, but no country is. What's really bad in the world are countries which totally disregard any idea of human rights... for example, North Korea, China, Nigeria, Iran, and, unfortunately, lots of others... that's what's really wrong in the world.